Discussion topic: Have we seen the end of high quality reps?

[RWG Technical]

About a year ago, Kruzer stated that he thought we had reached the peak in terms of quality of reps. The cases, dials, hands, and especially movements, were good, no they were better than good, they were excellent.

Think of the PAM 029, 063,188/196 etc all powered by the same movement as the gen's, high end ETA 2892's, 2893-2's, 7753's etc...the MBW's with everything "right" including great movements...

The prices for ETA movements, has more than doubled since January. A 2836-2 is over $150 surplus, direct from ETA they are over $200, the 2893-2 I just bought and showed pics of the packaging last week, has gone up $50 in 3 weeks since I placed the order. 7750 $550+, 7753 $700+...

The quality of the ETA automatic movements that I have seen in the past month, has taken a serious down turn. Not only am I seeing copy ETA's with ink stampings on them (easy to spot they are not ETA), but even more concerning is movements marked ETA that don't match up with anything I have ever seen before.

Examples:

ETA marked mainplate, but the mainplate has pins and the bridges have holes for alignment. This is incorrect for an ETA, the bridges always have the pins, and the mainplate has the holes. But the Sellita has pins on the mainplate and holes on the bridges...so what is going on...

ETA marked movements that have serious mechanical defects, mis-fitting parts, parts finish of very poor quality, parts that fall apart, these are defects that I have never experienced on any ETA in the past.

ETA marked movements, that contain almost all asian parts except for the mainplate. The quality of the parts is terrible, crappy regulators, misassembled movements with jewels not installed correctly, hairsprings out of round, and with so many problems, that in some cases all the servicing and adjustments can't make it work.

ETA's that are so old and worn out, that they can't be fixed, stripped gears, slipping gears, poor running, poor winding, worn out parts - not just one, but all parts are so worn out that it just won't run, stems that won't stay locked, and on and on...

This is the worse I have seen it, what should be a simple job (service a ETA 2836-2) ends up taking hours and hours over many days trying to correct multiple problems and having to disassemble and re-assemble the movement over and over...

I don't know if this is just a rash of bad movements lately, or if this is the reality we now face.

Give me an Asian 7750 any day of the week, at least I can service it and fix the flaws it has, the situation with Automatic ETA's has gotten really bad.

Maybe next week will be better, I hope so, it makes you re-think what your willing to spend you time on, and leaves a bad taste in the customer's mouth when you have to tell them you did your best, but you just can't get his watch fixed. The customer is out of pocket the shipping costs, and I am out of pocket the hours I spent trying to get his watch working...to no avail...

What do you think? Are we on a downturn?

Thanks for letting me vent

RG

[dluddy]

I agree with you assessment RG. I thik the days of the 100% "Swiss" movement reps are gone in Repland. I still see some qality casework coming out of the factories (HBB, Oris Coste, MBK's) but the movements are turning Chinese.

I believe that we have entered the "Franken" period in Replica collecting. Taking the best available from both worlds to build a quality replica. In some cases it takes acquiring multiple versions of reps just to build a single decent version.

At least that is the mode I am in

[musicale]

That is really worrying. I suppose on the other hand it's good to hear that the Asian 7750 is preferable - at least they are put together using correct parts all at once rather than being a "franken" movement of sorts. It makes you worry about buying a rep with a Valjoux 7750 though.

[andreww]

Not a big fan of ETA movements anyway Zig, and would much prefer having a 2813 or 4813 provided the cost savings is passed on to me by the dealers. You worked on my watch, and informed me that my ETA marked 2824 was actually an Asian clone. So, I really know nothing about the movement, and if it were to die, I'm not even 100% sure if an real ETA would fit? At least with a cheaper Asian movement (2813 or 4813) you know that they are readily available and very inexpensive. I've just never really understood the growing premium guys are ready to pay just to have an ETA movement. With the rising costs and decreasing availability, I can guarantee you that the manufactures will try to pull the wool over our eyes more often

[teddy boy]

The Zigmeister, your post really intrigues me. I am an economist and I would have predicted that this would happen. Although I'm sure that increasing movement prices have played a role, economic theory would predict that this would happen regardless or movment prices. The relevant concept is adverse selection, the same concept that explains why insurance premiums are higher when people aren't part of a group. If you want to buy insurance, the insurer must assume that you have higher than average risk. Premiums are then set based on the expectation that risk is elevated causing people with lower risks to drop out which causes premiums to rise even further. Eventually you have only high risk people in the pool.

How does that translate into rep watches. People start out assuming that there the chances of getting a good movement are say 50-50 and are willing to pay a price accordingly. Some producers of watches with good movements decide that they can't make enough money at those prices and either drop out or start using lower quality movements. Buyers must revise their expectations and now conclude that the chances aren't 50-50, they are say 30-70 that you get a good movement. They're now willing to pay a lower price. See where we're headed?

[RWG Technical]

@teddyboy

Very interesting analysis. Not being an economist, I would never come to that conclusion.

The simple reason I like the ETA's in my watches, is one of availability of spare parts. If it breaks, or needs a new mainspring, I can buy one. If you send in an Asian Auto, I can't get one part for it to repair it, it's disposable. Luckily I have about 20 2824/36-2 movements as spares, along with about 75 A7750's, handfuls of 6497's, half dozen DW mystery movements, etc..

The only saving grace for any asian automatic, is if you can fit a Miyota in place of the Asian one, they are cheap ($40 or so) and very dependable and rugged...

RG

[Rolexman]

Well I think this is bad news for the real movement experts/ addicts but in my opinion nothing has changed for the regular collector.

Let me elaborate. In the back of my mind I always doubted if the ETA movements sold in our reps weren't also reps (as discussed many times on RWG I & II). Now that it turns out there ARE some ETA rep/ franken movements circulating it does not matter. All I want is a good functioning movement. I don't care if it's a genuine Swiss-made ETA movement. It has to keep good time and everything has to work as it should. Proper hand-winding, time and date setting etc. I don't service any of my movements as the price of the rep doesn't way up to the servicing costs. If the movement dies I will inform about the costs involved repairing it. If it's too high I will just buy a new watch....

So if it looks, smells and tastes like a banana, to me it's a banana

Edited April 17, 2008 by Rolexman

[b16a2]

I agree. I think we reached the peak during last summer. We were receiving some great replica's with genuine Swiss movements. I have lost a lot of confidence in buying replicas Before, it was a good way to collect watches of high end brands for cheap. Now it is becoming unpredictable and quite expensive.. It is strange, when I first started out, the high end reps are the ones I was looking at, now I find myself looking at the 100USD reps, for me that is where the fun lies, having an accurate watch that is disposable.

If we are going to start getting asian movements in place of ETA, all well and good, but they must be advertised as this, otherwise we shall indeed see a massive downturn in our replica community, with 'little white lie' threads coming through again. On the other hand, the introduction of asian clone movements could see the reduction in price of reps, making the replica hobby more affordable again. Let us hope it is the latter.

[nelly]

Having been on the sharp end of one of these high priced "ETA" watches that turned out to have a franken ETA/Asian movement inside it I have to agree with The Zigmeister. My view was that going for the ETA movements was a longer term option where parts and other watchmakers that could service the movements were likely to be available. If it now turns into a situation where the A7750 is the only reliable option then what happens when The Zigmeister is no longer around to service them (and I hope that is many, many years down the road Rob .

Of course the only other option as Dluddy points out is to actually start purchasing the watches with the knowledge that you are likely to have to swap the movement with a "certified" ETA movement purchased separately, which starts to become expensive real quick with the recent increase in both rep and ETA movement prices OR start purchasing cheaper reps and stocking up on DG or Miyota movements.

In my case, I think my days of buying "ETA" reps are now over.....

[92tru]

i agree with the bananna talk, above, but i think there is something intangible about these reps that simply 'add value'. i mean, its why u go after a rep in the first place - its a significant amount more affordable, than the gen.

we simply want these nicer movements the same way we are in pursuit of the perfect lume, crown, crownguard, AR, or strap etc etc otherwise, we would all just proudly dawn quartz wristpieces.

I see it as playing with a scale-model of something.. like of a car etc.. except this scale is 1:1, so its a model of the real deal, but if it had the real engine to power it, it makes it all that much more desirable - regardless of how accurate it tells time!

I figure there is also some security in knowing it won't fall apart the next time you wear it, and that the parts are serviceable for some time to come.

[b16a2]

For me it's not the fact Im getting a better movement, as to be honest, even the ETA movements from the factories could be questionable, they're not necessairyl oiled and brand new form the Swiss factories (very unlikely) For me it is getting what I pay for. It might look and taste like a banana but if I paid for organic, and I get some cheap GM version, I'm not happy!

[nelly]

I see it as paying for a banana and getting a lemon

[hiker01]

I see it as paying for a banana and getting a lemon

Depends on where you are and the current produce market...sometimes a Lemon could cost more than a Banana!

[fotoman]

i have never been a fan of seeking the ETA just for ETA purposes - TTK has always hinted in these types of threads that even the ETAs were copies or rehashed movements.

every watch i get, i assume could be defective. - Luckly, we have someone like zig, and some of us local watch people and can get many things fixed or replaced.

this is a Very expensive hobby, even just paying rep prices - one reason i have taken to getting some "Gens" even if they are unbranded.

our hobby has made many changes recently. - the one i still really worry about is the ability to now sell reps as Gens - i really wonder what percent of the total sales get sold as gens elsewhere.

[Chronus]

Once ETAs dry up and my supply of ETA 7750s is depleted, I'll probably be out of the rep game

Perhaps the only thing that may tempt me are cheaper Asian 7750s if I can get a The Zigmeister service... otherwise that's it, they are expensive enough already... HBBs with Asian movements going for 1000+, new "lesser" chronos out at around 400

Edited April 17, 2008 by Chronus

[freddy333]

I have been seeing the same thing that Ziggy described, albeit on a much smaller scale (I repair far fewer watches than Ziggy does). None of this comes as a surprise to me, at least not since ETA's parent company announced that they would be curtailing the free-flow of bare ETA movements next year. For this reason, I have been stockpiling slow-beat 2846s & moving away from reps & concentrating more on building frankens (mostly out of gen components). Yes, the build cost of a franken is considerably higher, but I know what to expect with gen parts & the growing threat of exposure/seizure of reps by postal inspectors is not an issue with gen components (though customs fees can sometimes be). This is not to say that reps are going the way of the dinosaur, at least not unless the global economy suffers are serious calamity that might force gen makers to start getting serious about battling counterfeiting of their trademarks & products. But I fear bumpy roads are ahead, at least for awhile.

[owdeguy]

Guess I'll keep hoarding the 7750 etas while I can still get them. I'll just hold on to them for myself and my friends. It seems right now its safer to make them swiss than to risk buying them swiss from a factory....

[jeff g]

So what is one to do?

Buy the 100.00 cheaper asian model, and take chances that eventually it will fail, and be unrepairable, or pay the extra money for crappy knock off eta's, that eventually can be fixed?

Neither alternative sounds good.

After wearing reps for the past 5 years or so it has become quite obvious that if you like your rep

you need to service it. Certainly adding cost to the watch. At what point is the watch no longer worth the investment?

I have some cheap asian movements that run like 'clockwork'. I have other asians that die within weeks, or months. Same goes for eta's.

If many of the newer rep eta's, are being made with used parts, etc. We are screwed. Most certainly most of these CN reps that are currently available that advertise eta models most probably contain knock off CN eta movements. These asian eta's certainly will not be the quality of a genuine 'Swiss' eta.

Currently I have an 'eta' service being performed by Z. I hope the problems he is having with some of his current repairs and servicing are not with my watch. I will soon find out.

Edited April 17, 2008 by jeff g

[b16a2]

I think in time they may well be just as good as the Swiss counterparts. All we have to do is look at the new A7750 movement that have been reviewed by The Zigmeister. A good service and it should run a smoothly as a S7750, which of course would need servicing if it hadn't already been. Hopefully in time these asian clones can match the quality of the Swiss ETA's

Another thing to bear in mind is that the Swiss ETA's that we buy are probably knock off ones anyway. I say this in reference to The Zigmeister's other post where he mentioned that the only way to be sure of a serviced new movement is if it comes fully packaged as original.

[rek001]

It's a real shame, that's for sure.

I haven't bought an expensive rep in...about 8 months. Nothing that's come out has tempted me enough, I'm still waiting for something thatfloats my canoe enough to pay $400.

In the meantime I've been trolling iOffer and CqOut and have bought some really decent, satisfying watches for about $85 each, it's been a lot of fun.

This is depressing, really.

On a brighter note - look at the latest version of the chinese tourbillon, that's an accomplishment.

Maybe there's hope yet.

[perry563]

This news is very disturbing to me. I thought that if I was paying a huge premium for swiss eta movements that is what I was getting. I do have to say that I have 20 or so reps and none of the "swiss eta" ones have ever failed me. I am going to think twice and perhaps three times before I shell out big bucks for a rep advertised as containing a swiss eta. Getting a real sour taste in my mouth over all this for sure.

[RWG Technical]

I am not suggesting they are all bad, but if the last few weeks are an indication of what is to come, it's not good.

This is the only time I have had so many problems with movements, that alone tells me that something is going on...

Hopefully the Chinese mechanical movements will continue to be made and improved upon and maybe we can even get spare parts eventually, that would solve the problem.

RG

[perry563]

The problem is that there is no way to tell in advance. How is anyone to know that the 300 buck swiss eta driven rep thay are buying is actually a 100 buck rep with a POS movement? We need to get with the dealers we all know and put pressure upon them to try to ensure we get what we pay for. If the new price is going to be 100 more for a TRUE swiss ETA then so be it. Just dont lie to us and in the end sell JUNK. My thought always was that when I spend the extra bucks for swiss eta that I was getting a watch that is cosmetically very similar to a much more expensive Gen but at a low price BUT with true swiss eta reliability.

[Ztech]

Hey The Zigmeister,

What's the possibility of Stallita movements being used in lieu of ETA's or clone movements. I've heard that Stallita and possibly other movement manufacturers stepping up to the void that's being created by ETA's decision to pull their products from the public market. I've owned a few watches with Stallita movements and as far as I was concerned they performed just as well as, if not sometime betters, than any ETA I've ever owned.

Your thoughts?

z

[freddy333]

The problem is that there is no way to tell in advance. How is anyone to know that the 300 buck swiss eta driven rep thay are buying is actually a 100 buck rep with a POS movement?

Good point, but this has been a problem for the past 20 or so years, ever since the rep factories started advertising reps with 'Swiss (ETA) movements' & charging buyers significantly higher prices for them. Unless you have the tools to open the case (& know what to look for when you do), the average rep buyer never knows what he is actually getting. I am sure we have all seen more than enough expensive 'Swiss Grade 1' that turn out to be powered by cheap, Asian POS movements to drive the point home. So this recent wave of questionable ETA quality is just a new tear in the same old cloth.