Removing a genuine movement from a genuine watch to make a better rep

[Chronus]

I feel a little weird doing it, but taking out a genuine movement from a genuine watch and putting it into a rep to make it better (ie. better quality movement, replacing Asian movement)... an example is having an old chrono with ETA 7750 and say, swapping it into a Breitling Chronomat Evolution rep, to make it better.... but what to do with the remains of the genuine?

It feels weird to even contemplate it and I'm not sure that I should !

Any thoughts?

[takashi]

Put an Asian movement on the genuine and sell it with "Asian 7750" movement. most likely you will be able to recover the cost.

[Sir-Lancelot]

Would be hard for me to do that, but there are some sweet vintage daytons reps that have done this mod.

Maybe put the Asian movement into the genuine case and have another franken.

edit to add I must have been sharing Taka's brain.

[Watchmeister]

There is no ethical issue if you are not trying to sell the remainder as gen. And I know you are not. It is your watch. At the end of the day it is not that reps are reps or gens are gens. Watches are watches and some are built better than others. I have done many frankenwatches. With rare exception most "watch companies" are simply contract manufacturers of parts made elsewhere. Most legendary in-house movements are made of someone else's components and at best decorated in-house. Is a rep assembly line really that different? Let's see, the typical swiss watch house has a couple of true watchsmiths and a lot of "guest workers"...

[Guest avitt]

Just make sure that the "donor" watch is really ugly...Then you can scrap the old parts, and feel no guilt whatsoever

[Corgi]

If you already have a genuine Breitling watch, with a fully functioning movement, why in the name of all that is holy would you tear it apart? How is that even remotely a lucrative idea? No rep is perfect, and I agree - adding a genuine movement would likely make it a better watch. But at what cost? The destruction of a gen you already own. It doesn't make sense... why turn one gen and one rep into two frankens when gen trumps rep any day of the week?

Even if your gen donor is really hideous you could sell it on Timezone, ebay, or even trade it in at an AD - likely its appearance would yield interest from a serious collector. By doing this movement swap you are only decreasing its value... and don't forget, even the very good Breitling Chronomat Evolution replicas are still only Chinese fakes... they just won't last.

[jmt]

There is no ethical issue if you are not trying to sell the remainder as gen. And I know you are not. It is your watch. At the end of the day it is not that reps are reps or gens are gens. Watches are watches and some are built better than others. I have done many frankenwatches. With rare exception most "watch companies" are simply contract manufacturers of parts made elsewhere. Most legendary in-house movements are made of someone else's components and at best decorated in-house. Is a rep assembly line really that different? Let's see, the typical swiss watch house has a couple of true watchsmiths and a lot of "guest workers"...

@Kruzer,

Glad you said this! I have been struck by the gens are better than reps thought process for a long time. A really well built franken beats the heck out of some of my gens-- and they certainly get more wrist time!

If you already have a genuine Breitling watch, with a fully functioning movement, why in the name of all that is holy would you tear it apart? How is that even remotely a lucrative idea? No rep is perfect, and I agree - adding a genuine movement would likely make it a better watch. But at what cost? The destruction of a gen you already own. It doesn't make sense... why turn one gen and one rep into two frankens when gen trumps rep any day of the week?

Even if your gen donor is really hideous you could sell it on Timezone, ebay, or even trade it in at an AD - likely its appearance would yield interest from a serious collector. By doing this movement swap you are only decreasing its value... and don't forget, even the very good Breitling Chronomat Evolution replicas are still only Chinese fakes... they just won't last.

@Corgi,

True, true. But I think its all about having the watches you love. So if the value to you of two frankens is more than that of one rep + some $, I say go for it and post pics!

[Chronus]

If you already have a genuine Breitling watch, with a fully functioning movement, why in the name of all that is holy would you tear it apart? How is that even remotely a lucrative idea? No rep is perfect, and I agree - adding a genuine movement would likely make it a better watch. But at what cost? The destruction of a gen you already own. It doesn't make sense... why turn one gen and one rep into two frankens when gen trumps rep any day of the week?

Even if your gen donor is really hideous you could sell it on Timezone, ebay, or even trade it in at an AD - likely its appearance would yield interest from a serious collector. By doing this movement swap you are only decreasing its value... and don't forget, even the very good Breitling Chronomat Evolution replicas are still only Chinese fakes... they just won't last.

I didn't mean take a Breitling movement from a genuine to put in a rep.

Here are a few examples:

1. take out a "proper" GMT type movement such as from a Seamaster GMT and put it in the ceramic Rolex GMT watch that would also have the same action as the genuine (as the Omega does) [note: i would never do this to upgrade a Rolex, I value the Omega more ]

2. take out the tri-compax ETA 7750 from my RXW Plasmir Milgraph and use it in the HBB rep or the Omega Moonwatch rep or the Omega PO Chrono rep (ok, the latter ones are poor examples as these rep are not so accurate).

3. take out the standard layout ETA 7750 from a cheap chrono (say $500-700) and put it into the afore-mentioned Breitling Chronomat Evolution (I don't need to as mine came with ETA).

This is really a question of whether you are happy to cannibalize a genuine, more of a "lower" name, say Tudor, Oris, Tissot, etc to make your "big name" rep even better in terms of reliability.

I just feel a little funny doing it, and just having the genuine parts lying around like a dead body, all unappreciated

Edited June 6, 2008 by Chronus

[JohnG]

Could I put the ETA movement from my SSD into a gen SD?

That would solve all the problems with the bezel, sel's, too-large corona on the crystal, etc., etc., etc..

[Guest avitt]

It doesn't make sense... why turn one gen and one rep into two frankens when gen trumps rep any day of the week?

Even if your gen donor is really hideous you could sell it on Timezone, ebay, or even trade it in at an AD - likely its appearance would yield interest from a serious collector. By doing this movement swap you are only decreasing its value...

I disagree with this statement.

For example, I'd argue that this...

...is easily worth 2-3X this...

[Chronus]

Then again, would you take that Ebel 1911 Chrono with El Primero movement ($850) and put it into a Daytona rep ? It would be nice, but the first watch is nice too, and it wouldn't be cheap (though that is the cheapest I've ever seen for a Zenith El Primero movement).

[dluddy]

I disagree with this statement.

For example, I'd argue that this...

...is easily worth 2-3X this...

I'd second that

[Guest avitt]

Then again, would you take that Ebel 1911 Chrono with El Primero movement ($850) and put it into a Daytona rep ? It would be nice, but the first watch is nice too, and it wouldn't be cheap (though that is the cheapest I've ever seen for a Zenith El Primero movement).

(Isn't the average selling price for an El Primero about twice that much?)

As with all aspects of this hobby, it's difficult to generalize...You've got to handle each decision on a case-by-case basis.

To me, a Zenith Daytona does not make as much sense as a Valjoux Daytona. This is because the El Primero movement is much more rare, and cannot generally be found as a donor in old "beater" watches.

Of course, you could always get lucky (like Euno), and source a beautiful movement alone. That would make the decision much easier.

[Chronus]

(Isn't the average selling price for an El Primero about twice that much?)

Yes, but I had a post a day or two ago of an Ebel watch going for that price (on TimeZone - don't think it's sold yet), with El Primero movement. I'd have less qualms removing it from that, as Seadweller mentioned that it looked like someone had done a botched job on the case of the watch (messing around with the crown guards), though I'd feel weird, as I know By-Tor loves it!

Though a Daytona with El Primero movement is certainly a very attractive proposition for me, but I have no idea where to get the other parts to put it together

Also, I already have a genuine Zenith Rainbow El Primero ... I'd never remove that movement to put into a rep Daytona!

[takashi]

I think the premise is to have relatively cheap gen watch with "valuable" movement and put it to the rep. Again, you can still make the gen watch running with Asian movement most of the time. Agree with case by case basis.

[tomhorn]

Hate to bring this thread back from the dead, but I actually have this dilema going on in my head now, as I am trying to decide between sending my A7750 to The Zigmeister for a service, or just having him swap it out for an ETA 7750.

I see that ofrei has the 7750 movement for sale on his site now for $598, but I frequently see gens with 7750's on the bay at lower prices. You can find brands like Hamilton, Jacques Lemans, Philip, and Invicta that have the ETA version, and if you are patient, there are always options for less than ofrei's price.

Assuming you don't like the watch the movement comes in to begin with (for me it would be an Invicta Lupah for example), I can see why doing this would be advantageous if the price is below what you can buy the movement for alone.

My concerns are whether or not all generic 7750's are the same in terms of being able to fit into my IWC 3717 case/dial, and (the obvious) what is the condition of the movement itself once it's removed from the donor watch. Any input from those who have done this would be appreciated, or if there are any other sources for the movement alone. Thanks!

[ubiquitous]

As someone who has done this very task several times... I myself find that it's not an issue, as long as the watch you are building is one that you will keep

Personally, I try to find movements a la carte without having to cannibalize a complete watch (I was able to do this with my first El Primero Daytona, along with a few other projects like my Tudor Sub, etc). However, if I have to decommision an old gen for the movement to bring my project to fruition, I'll do what I have to do. Is it right, or wrong? Well, the way I look at it- I'd likely be wearing the watch I build over the watch I take apart (I don't look for the desirable watches to use as donors). Or, maybe better put, I wouldn't take apart a watch I'd wear

Since the projects I build are generally for keeps, I don't bother with changing the bridges or signed rotors, etc. as those stay behind a closed caseback. I have no desire to sell my projects, and these items don't bother me, so I don't spend the money to upgrade these parts.

Cheers,

R

[alt.watch.obsessive]

I agree it does feel odd Chronus the first time you realize there is no reason to keep the Mido or Rado or whatever case and pitch it.

[Chronus]

It's still a weird thing to do... I have a V72 watch from the 50s (old Breitling made watch under a different name for the US market) which works fine, but I never wear it, so I've considered making a Daytona out of it (once I get money of course!). I'm still a little uneasy though, but I still think about it. I don't think I'd have as many qualms with an Invicta etc if it costs less than the ETA 7750 by itself though.... don't know why!

[supermanx]

I know a little over a year ago there was a discount store (TJMaxx) in the US closing out hamilton khakis with ETA7750 for an obscene price, i think it was like $200. I know there were some posts on the boards of people buying them for just this purpose, I would have too if mine had any.

[freddy333]

I feel a little weird doing it, but taking out a genuine movement from a genuine watch and putting it into a rep to make it better (ie. better quality movement, replacing Asian movement)... It feels weird to even contemplate it and I'm not sure that I should !

Any thoughts?

Not so much weird, but often painful. Usually, depending on the donor (& potential recipient), I am able to press on (with only mild remorse) because the ends justify the means. And since most of my donors (some having been quite nice watches in their own right) went into making vintage Daytonas, I have no regrets. But there have also been a couple of cases where I fell in love with the donor watch & either decided to leave it in tact (which was the case with 1 of my DJs) or had to source a replacement movement so I could use the watch again (which was the case with the Flytimer). In these latter cases, the pain stems mostly from the added expense of having to source additional (& often costly) donor watches and/or movements.

'Tis a strange hobby sometimes.