All About ETA

[freddy333]

4. Are there genuine ETA movements in our reps? A resounding YES there has been for at least the 4 years I have been collecting reps, and there is no doubt in my mind. As Freddy mentioned already, you can

[XL2000]

Very good and informative post.

[EuroTimez]

A FEW WAYS TO KNOW IF COPY or GEN ETA

One very easy indication is the BIG SILVER GEAR (no need to take out parts just open case-back), on copy-ETA (all the ones I've seen) it appears to be shinny aka Polished, while the GEN ETA movement has BRUSHED BIG SILVER GEARS, the one big GEAR at 13.00 o'clock. Then of course the engravings and particulary on ROLEX remove the glued rolex "rotor thingy" and if it doesn't say 25 jewel Swiss made --- 99% sure it's a copy-ETA--- but remember that some COPY-ETA also have engraved rotors.... you also have mixed ETA and COPY-ETA, so it's tricky business... and according to my watchmaker in china if you remove the rotor and check the from there (i requested for a picture of this as I'm no watchmaker) you can see the parts...

[takashi]

I have posted my reply on the other forum. To summarize:

1. Well written article with really useful information, thanks a lot for doing this.

2. I believe the repmakers do use real ETA on some of the watches. It varies greatly from watches to watches and from each production batch. To cite and example, read SD4K review on Breitling Heritage Superocean non chrono. He got it at really really first batch.... and... the movement is real ETA. Today, it's difficult to find this watch with this movement anymore, only golden colour 2824-2 available for this watch. Another example, long gone rep such as first generation Breitling SuperOcean SteelFish or Avenger Seawolf or Omega Planet Ocean 4th gen. The first batch do come with nickle plated ETA, undecorated. I am sure it's real ETA.

3. Even on "copy" products, there exists variations. I have seen many A7750 hi beat, on many watches which comes with different finishing on parts. To simplify, I concentrate on normal 6-9-12 layout. They do look different in various areas. Some even come with "dirt" and "rust" on the parts.

[FxrAndy]

A fantastic post with very good information, thanks i will be keeping my eye on it, i would like to hear what some of the collectors have to say, i think we are all happy with what Chris from Eurotimez has said in the past but i would like to hear what Joshua and Andrews take on the situation is.

[emuozz]

This is a great thread, very informative. I just want to thank RobbieG and all the members than share them knowledge in this thread

[coolfire]

Amazing... Just amazing...

Mods, please consider making this a sticky somewhere, as long as there are continuing, positive & up-to-date information...

[JohnG]

By wearing a counterfeit product, we're -by default- trying to pass off a fake for a gen.

Some of us just fess up if asked. But you and I both know that when someone glances at our wrist, we don't interrupt them and tell them we're wearing a fake. Lets be 100% honest here. So we're all guilty of deception -even if by omission-.

I think in these discussions it is a good idea if each person speaks for themselves. You don't know all the members here personally and you certainly don't tell me. I don't even wait for people to look at my wrist. I am awed by the quality of the replicas that I have purchased and admire them as works of art just as much counterfeit currency has artistic merit. I tell anyone who will listen all about my replica watch because as a replica it is awesome. As a gen it would be much less interesting (to me) because for 5K OF COURSE you expect to get an amazing watch.

I want to point out that the question of whether we are being lied to is not a trivial matter. If there were only one movement for each rep available then it would be of less importance. But to those of us who are paying more money to (we are now being told) get the exact same fake movement that is in the lower priced reps - this would be reason to be angry. I am tired of every dealer transgression being explained away with the blanket "this is an illegal industry" excuse.

If what is being said here is true then even EuroTimez is lying outright when he says he is selling genuine ETA movement reps - if that is true I am going to be very disappointed.

One last point - I find on Otto Frei ETA 2836-2 movements for $138 retail. 2824-2 $150 retail. Wholesale would be considerably less. I am not convinced (yet) that the math really puts an end to this debate.

Finally, I would like to see someone - say The Zigmeister or someone equally respected and knowledgeable - take a sampling of "genuine ETA" reps and tell us once and for all if we are being lied to. If we are I would be very happy to purchase the exact same watches for $100 less.

[takashi]

The problem is... Movement may vary from one production batch to another, even in the same rep model.

Another example is IWC Ingenieur non chrono. I got it very first, from Eddie Lee. Guess what... The movement is real ETA2824-2 nickle plated just like on my PO 42,5mm 4th gen and Breitling Avenger Seawolf. Nowadays, you will see many using ETA2836-2 or for this instance, ETA clone.

[EuroTimez]

I think in these discussions it is a good idea if each person speaks for themselves. You don't know all the members here personally and you certainly don't tell me. I don't even wait for people to look at my wrist. I am awed by the quality of the replicas that I have purchased and admire them as works of art just as much counterfeit currency has artistic merit. I tell anyone who will listen all about my replica watch because as a replica it is awesome. As a gen it would be much less interesting (to me) because for 5K OF COURSE you expect to get an amazing watch.

I want to point out that the question of whether we are being lied to is not a trivial matter. If there were only one movement for each rep available then it would be of less importance. But to those of us who are paying more money to (we are now being told) get the exact same fake movement that is in the lower priced reps - this would be reason to be angry. I am tired of every dealer transgression being explained away with the blanket "this is an illegal industry" excuse.

If what is being said here is true then even EuroTimez is lying outright when he says he is selling genuine ETA movement reps - if that is true I am going to be very disappointed.

One last point - I find on Otto Frei ETA 2836-2 movements for $138 retail. 2824-2 $150 retail. Wholesale would be considerably less. I am not convinced (yet) that the math really puts an end to this debate.

Finally, I would like to see someone - say The Zigmeister or someone equally respected and knowledgeable - take a sampling of "genuine ETA" reps and tell us once and for all if we are being lied to. If we are I would be very happy to purchase the exact same watches for $100 less.

Excuse me?! I'm never lied about my MOVEMENTS, I know that is not what your claiming and prob not what you mean at all, but its still a suggestion pointing towards that direction which I honestly don't like.

Please READ what I wrote. In my watches if ordered GEN ETA, you will receive GEN NEW ETA..... ALL CASEBACKS GET OPENED!!! and recently (about 3-4 weeks ago) they all get MARKED read here for independant review of my QC.

I even posted tips and tricks how to differentiate between COPY and ETA movement, on several occasions --please read my post above here as well-- why would I do that If I were selling Copy-ETA. I don't have to be afraid as I know exactly what I'm selling.

One of my policies when I started here as a Dealer was and has always been NO WHITE/BROWN/BLACK LIES... QC watches, deliver what I promise and top service... (if real ETA then real ETA, and as you can see from my prices I'm generally only 20-30 usd more than top-asian dealers non ETA movements -like 7750, etc- but when it comes to ETA movements I'm like +/- 60 usd more expensive in comparison because I sell real ETA movements).

I hope this clarifies a bit...

[JohnG]

Excuse me?! I'm never lied about my MOVEMENTS, I know that is not what your claiming and prob not what you mean at all, but its still a suggestion pointing towards that direction which I honestly don't like.

EurotTimez you didn't understand my comment. That is the clear implication of the original post (which I did not write). IF what the original poster is saying is TRUE, then NONE of the dealers are sending us real ETA's. I don't believe it - if you read the rest of my post I say as much.

Did you not read THIS from the original post? I am not the one saying all the ETA's are counterfeit EuroTimez -

This brings me to the final thought on the subject that I would like to present in this article. I for one have felt for some time that the so called ETA movements, particularly the common 2836 and 2824 variants were all counterfeit.

I am not the one making this claim so please don't be upset with ME.

[JohnG]

EuroTimez - just so you know that I am not exaggerating the insinuations that are being made here (that are very upsetting to me as well) here is a quote from a similar thread at RepGeek (this thread has been posted on three forums that I know of):

A replica in a replica is just so hotly contested that it is almost laughable. This is a shady business and I think all dealers and factories are just lying their asses off and I for one don't care. All this is good fun if you ask me. Seriously though, I would love to hear all the thoughts on this and whether you care or not mostly.

Why do you trust them? Because they send watches when you order them and replace defects? They have to do that to survive. It doesn't mean they are honest. I mean come on. They just don't want to get lynched. LOL. It is just good business to appear to be honest.

[RobbieG]

Just for the record I don't want to see this thread slide into what it did at RG. I'm now seeing some of the same topics start to simmer here so let's be careful please. I had to close the thread and take down all my posts over there because a few bad apples could not be content to disagree but had to resort to baiting, false accusations, quoting out of context, etc...which need not be rehashed here at home for me. I kinda feel like I need a shower after all that and it is good to be back here on the home front. In any event, I was surprised to see some of te finer points here seem to be such a hot topic and I'm going to be much more careful how I respond to them here if at all.

Although I don't see this happening here with our crew, no one should be twisting this and saying all dealers are lying about movements. We know some have in the past now let's just leave that alone. That is not what the thread is supposed to be about anyway so let's stay on track. My dealer doesn't dropship so I always know what I am getting. I have been loyal to him for 3 years and the one time I ordered from someone else he let me down on the first try. I think many probably don't even know always if they are dropshipping and others are just dishonest. I have also been vocal in saying that I kind of expect dishonesty and I believe it is a shady business. It is what it is and it comes with the territory. Just certain dealers are the exception to that.

We are talking about changes at ETA which may or may not affect reps and let's try and focus on that. If for whatever reason the supply shrinks and/or the rep ETA's end up taking the place or whatever, we all know and have relationships with our dealers and I'm sure most will tell the truth about it and it will all work out fine. Regardless, there will always be at least two movement quality levels and a price differential between them. I for one have pulled no punches in saying that whatever the outcome is fine by me. If there is in fact a quality copy of the ETA, and that is all there is, I will make the choice whether or not to buy it and you all will to. Or, such as in the case of Eurotimez, maybe some dealers will actaully offer a movement check and transplant service where the watch is inspected and if it is noty a real ETA the dealer will install one before delivering the watch for another price differential maybe. In any case, try to be understanding if there are changes going on that not all dealers can keep up with and maybe give them the benefit of the doubt. I for one am never quick to point a finger and call someone a liar when it comes to these issues and maybe I am an easy mark for a crooked dealer, I don't know. My default state however, is to feel that these watches are an INCREDIBLE value for the money by and large so I let a lot of stuff slide. To each his own though.

Hats off to Eurotimez and those like him who take QC and promises so seriously. I know if even better ETA copies, stamps and all start to come in real heavy he and other experts will uncover the truth and arm us with the knowledge to make better choices.

[RobbieG]

EuroTimez - just so you know that I am not exaggerating the insinuations that are being made here (that are very upsetting to me as well) here is a quote from a similar thread at RepGeek (this thread has been posted on three forums that I know of):

John, what you just quoted seems to be stiring a lot of stuff up and I don't really see the value of you reposting it here except to stir stuff up here as well. You can post your own thoughts to Eurotimez without sticking me into it in the future. Let's just leave it alone. I am entitled to my opinion and you to yours. But since you did, let me clarify it so he now doesn't think I'm attacking his integrity which the statement had nothing to do with him. You need to be careful how you prestnt things John. This is how silly stuff gets started. Thanks for understanding.

This statement was aimed at something I find personally funny is all. Lighten up. A replica movement in a replica watch - no way man..my dealer said it is Swiss...get it? Kinda funny but not a laughing matter for sure. That is all I'm saying. I also think most dealers do lie and that comes from my own experiences over the years. I should not have said all and I take that back though...

I also think it is peculiar that many seem to only evaluate a dealer's trust because they send a watch when paid via these forums. Of course they did. They would lose all business immediately if they didn't overnight. Trust must come from something deeper than that. They also depend on this business for livelihood and they have to sell what they got. If they can't get real ETA's for instance, they may take a shot and try and get some through anyway. I'm not saying it is right, but this stuff happens in all sorts of legitimate business, so we should take it with a grain of salt that it happens in this one. Again, I also don't really care about this because of my dealer relationship. He will steer me straight and always has so I don't have to sweat this stuff too much except that he is telling me ETA's are hard to get and more expensive and I have no reason not to believe him. And if I can't get ETA's and I want them, I'll transplant them myself. No biggy.

Anyway regarding the ETA issue at large in terms of supply these are my dealer's thoughts: The ebauche changes are affecting the whole industry in that since those are going away, companies who only need those now will now buy whole movements instead which puts pressure on supply. Makes sense right? Therefore there will be less complete movements in the supply chain to find their way to reps because they are being boughtas complete movements now and more so by 2010. So yes, and this is another hotly contested point it seems on the other board, the ebauche changes do and will contnue to affect the rep world more and more as time passes. And I'm sure ETA is happy about that because not only do they get to contol the whole watch world more than ever, it also takes the heat off them a little on the rep front as the move to complete movements will ensure more sales at top dollar and thus less chance that ETA's will end up in $200 or less replica watches. I think Eurotimez was saying something to that effect too? I may be wrong about that but I forget...

Edited June 12, 2008 by RobbieG

[roflwaffle]

Anyway regarding the ETA issue at large in terms of supply these are my dealer's thoughts: The ebauche changes are affecting the whole industry in that since those are going away, companies who only need those now will now buy whole movements instead which puts pressure on supply. Makes sense right? Therefore there will be less complete movements in the supply chain to find their way to reps because they are being boughtas complete movements now and more so by 2010.

With all due respect, and full politeness...

Would not ETA just turn those ebauches into full movements?

say they make 10 million movements and 10 million ebauches per year right now. (They have a capactity to make 20million ebauches per year, along with parts for them..) they stop selling ebauches all together.. wouldnt their total output then realistically be more than 10 million movements per year? Not quite a full 20, but certainly close, right? It's not like they are going to slow production... those half movements will probably be finished into full ones, right?

Also, the many brands like hublot, panerai, etc going inhouse or to other companies in light of all this, that would mean the total demand would drop a little bit?

It is an interesting subject, and I'm not quite sure what is going to happen, but I'm just not quite so sure that ETA is going to drop their production down so much.

On a side note: is ETA then planning mass layoffs?

[RobbieG]

I have no idea what the economies of scale are for ETA and I'm just repeating what my dealer in China is telling me. For whatever reason, there does coincidentally seem to be a price differential worldwide whether small or large as well as claims of shortages whether true or false. Maybe we should call this debate a draw given that nobody but ETA knows the real answer?

Again, the only point to all this don't forget is nothing other than to find the truth of what may be going on related to reps after all. What we do know is that China claims a movement shortage and that conicidentailly or not, now we are seeing more and more suspicious ETA movements. The consensus from insiders is that even if there isn't a movement shortage or pressure from ETA, there it does appear to be possible that the rep "industry" may be trying to exploit the ETA news for profit or otherwise bring the copies into full swing to eliminate dedendence on Swiss movements altogether, which for the record is fine by me.

Since this particular issue is as stale as week old bread, let me pose a new question: What does everyone think about the China copies? Maybe that movement could go through another quality improvement and get up to snuff with the A7750? Not there yet, butif it gets up to A7750 quality will you still seek ETA's. I for one will always put ETA's in reps and always have, even if I have to broach the hands. I have never owned an A7750 but I freely admit I have no real reason for it. I just like knowing I have Swiss movements in there so sometimes I'll source them myself and go from there. But that is part of the fun for me. How about you guys?

It seems like the factories would be motivated to get these up to par and not ever have to think about 2824/36's again? I mean they effectively did that with chronographs and it seems to be working out really well for them.

With all due respect, and full politeness...

Would not ETA just turn those ebauches into full movements?

say they make 10 million movements and 10 million ebauches per year right now. (They have a capactity to make 20million ebauches per year, along with parts for them..) they stop selling ebauches all together.. wouldnt their total output then realistically be more than 10 million movements per year? Not quite a full 20, but certainly close, right? It's not like they are going to slow production... those half movements will probably be finished into full ones, right?

Also, the many brands like hublot, panerai, etc going inhouse or to other companies in light of all this, that would mean the total demand would drop a little bit?

It is an interesting subject, and I'm not quite sure what is going to happen, but I'm just not quite so sure that ETA is going to drop their production down so much.

On a side note: is ETA then planning mass layoffs?

[roflwaffle]

The consensus from insiders is that even if there isn't a movement shortage or pressure from ETA, there it does appear to be possible that the rep "industry" may be trying to exploit the ETA news for profit or otherwise bring the copies into full swing to eliminate dedendence on Swiss movements altogether

I would strongly agree that is a good possibility.

let me pose a new question: What does everyone think about the China copies?

hit or miss. 6497 is pretty rock solid, seagull does a pretty good job with em. (or is it PTS-Hangzhou? I think one does the lowbeat, one does the highbeat, or maybe im just making up things right now)

the 2824 CN copies are pretty high quality, at least some of em out there..

Still not sold on the a7750, had more problems than most people though... luck of the draw i guess. but what do i know, im just teh newb.

Edited June 12, 2008 by roflwaffle

[roflwaffle]

Oh and the seagull ST-19 is an awesome movement, just wish the finishing was better. very smooth.

[RWG Technical]

I just finished servicing one of the "new" ETA's that have been showing up lately (2824-2), and although I think they are genuine ETA movements, they certainly are below the "Top" quality movements we were used to having in our reps.

There are a number of physical differences, mostly the lower quality fit and finish. The balance shock absorber is a totally different seat design, although the spring is a KIF Trior one it sits in a strange mounting I have never seen before. Normally following service, you can adjust the beat and regulate the movement in a less than a minute, this particular one was very troublesome, taking 15 minutes alone to get adjusted. Parts fitment is not on par with ETA standards, and it just looks like a low end model vs what I used to see until last year. The rate fine adjust screw is seized solid and can't be moved, so there are some quality issues.

If I can find some time this weekend, I'll take some pics.

RG

[Sir-Lancelot]

The Zigmeister, did you see Chris's (Eurotimes) post about the big gear? The rep eta is polished and gen brushed. I checked all mine and the big gear is brushed. Mine are all well over 2 years old.

Curious to know your thoughts on that.

After reading this, I am sure they will brush them now tho.

[RobbieG]

I just finished servicing one of the "new" ETA's that have been showing up lately (2824-2), and although I think they are genuine ETA movements, they certainly are below the "Top" quality movements we were used to having in our reps.

There are a number of physical differences, mostly the lower quality fit and finish. The balance shock absorber is a totally different seat design, although the spring is a KIF Trior one it sits in a strange mounting I have never seen before. Normally following service, you can adjust the beat and regulate the movement in a less than a minute, this particular one was very troublesome, taking 15 minutes alone to get adjusted. Parts fitment is not on par with ETA standards, and it just looks like a low end model vs what I used to see until last year. The rate fine adjust screw is seized solid and can't be moved, so there are some quality issues.

If I can find some time this weekend, I'll take some pics.

RG

Hmmm. Interesting. What do you make of that Rob? It seems like ETA wouldn't turn out anything like that. Will love to hear your speculative thoughts on that if you have any and look forward to seeing the pics.

[RobbieG]

Oh and the seagull ST-19 is an awesome movement, just wish the finishing was better. very smooth.

Oh yeah, I have a VC Malte chrono with that in it and I just love it. Bulletproof too. Smooth winding and keeps good time. I have had mine unserviced for over 2 years and it runs like a champ even after I dropped it once. You are right about the finish - it is fine to look at beyond 2 feet or sobut not so great up close. I sometimed think I would like to take on the project of taking it apart to polish the bridges and plates a little to see what it would look like. That movement would be the nuts with a higher finish spec.

[RWG Technical]

Ziggy, did you see Chris's (Eurotimes) post about the big gear? The rep eta is polished and gen brushed. I checked all mine and the big gear is brushed. Mine are all well over 2 years old.

Curious to know your thoughts on that.

After reading this, I am sure they will brush them now tho.

Honestly, I dont' think you can look at one item in isolation (a gear for example) and tell if the movement is gen or not. There is a lot to look at and compare to be able to differeciate a copy from the genuine article.

RG

[RWG Technical]

Hmmm. Interesting. What do you make of that Rob? It seems like ETA wouldn't turn out anything like that. Will love to hear your speculative thoughts on that if you have any and look forward to seeing the pics.

Pics forthcoming, give me a day or two...if anything, it's muddied the waters somewhat. Just when I think I have it figured out, they present new stuff that discounts what I thought I knew.

Bear with me for a day or so, I'll get some detaild pics and you'll be able to plainly see the differences.

RG

[JohnG]

John, what you just quoted seems to be stiring a lot of stuff up and I don't really see the value of you reposting it here except to stir stuff up here as well. You can post your own thoughts to Eurotimez without sticking me into it in the future. Let's just leave it alone.

??? Those were your thoughts, not mine. I found the insinuations upsetting and said so. That's all.