All About ETA

[rodwc]

Wait a second..

Your saying our dealers may be misleading people? Like using *non-ETA* movements and telling people they're ETA movements? What's next, putting "Rolex" on the dial?? Next thing you know they'll be trying to copy the exact dimensions of the genuine watch.

Here I thought they were just grey market ADs.

Don`t want to start anything here but, if you are happy being lied to and being scammed for your purchases , then fine by me.

I simply want the truth , so I can decide for myself.

[rodwc]

Then buy a gen. Problem solved.

That is really a childish comment, which will get no-one anywhere.

[rodwc]

Actually, it does serve a purpose:

Why are you upset with a rep movement, but okay with a rep dial?

Why are you upset with non-superluminova but okay with poor threading on screws?

Why are you upset with poor AR but okay with an undecorated movement?

Our standards for upset are individual and artificial. What we have to, ideally, admit to is that we want as accurate a rep as possible? And why? We'll never admit it, but we want to feel like we're wearing the gen. Why would the movement mater at all if it lasts for a very long time?

Please understand this in its simplest form.

I am not upset with any of the above questions in any shape or form.

I think the reps I have bought have been truly outstanding for their quality and price,

simply because I was told the facts and truth before I committed to buy.

I also own gen watches .

If a person or persons deliberately lies and mis-informs me about a purchase then simply I am finished with that

person/dealer.

I would also wager that 95% of the members buying here feel the same way.

[RobbieG]

Then buy a gen. Problem solved.

Amen to that brother. I didn't intend to dig up the white lie stuff again, believe me. I for one am willing to give gobs of latitude to these dealers and factories. Everytime I hold one of my few reps in my hand I can't help but marvel at the quality to price ratio, lies or no lies. The bottom line is that it get harder and harder to distiguish the quality differences from my genuine pieces and that makes me grin every time. I also admire their creativity in finding new ways to market the products - lies and all. Keep in mind, we are all witnessing basically a third world undergoing an industrial revolution. Those periods are always marked by puffing product claims. Remember all those miracle 'tonics' that could cure any ailment during our revolution in the US? Let's all try to just consider the source and remember not to take this arm of the watch industry so seriously. It isn't real. Just enjoy the fantasy that it is and be amazed at all the enjoyment you get for a couple bucks. If you are looking for truth and depth of history and tradition and to understand the craft and experience the perfection at the highest level, you can't ever experience that with reps I'm sorry to say. There isn't one I have ever seen that captures the true essence of Swiss genius no matter how 'perfect' it may be. They still just fall short in some "hard to put your finger on" way. If you try to hold this industry to a real standard I'm sorry to say you are only setting yourself up for one disappointment after another.

[rodwc]

Amen to that brother. I didn't intend to dig up the white lie stuff again, believe me. I for one am willing to give gobs of latitude to these dealers and factories. Everytime I hold one of my few reps in my hand I can't help but marvel at the quality to price ratio, lies or no lies. The bottom line is that it get harder and harder to distiguish the quality differences from my genuine pieces and that makes me grin every time. I also admire their creativity in finding new ways to market the products - lies and all. Keep in mind, we are all witnessing basically a third world undergoing an industrial revolution. Those periods are always marked by puffing product claims. Remember all those miracle 'tonics' that could cure any ailment during our revolution in the US? Let's all try to just consider the source and remember not to take this arm of the watch industry so seriously. It isn't real. Just enjoy the fantasy that it is and be amazed at all the enjoyment you get for a couple bucks. If you are looking for truth and depth of history and tradition and to understand the craft and experience the perfection at the highest level, you can't ever experience that with reps I'm sorry to say. There isn't one I have ever seen that captures the true essence of Swiss genius no matter how 'perfect' it may be. They still just fall short in some "hard to put your finger on" way. If you try to hold this industry to a real standard I'm sorry to say you are only setting yourself up for one disappointment after another.

Well said, and completely true.

[RobbieG]

Please understand this in its simplest form.

I am not upset with any of the above questions in any shape or form.

I think the reps I have bought have been truly outstanding for their quality and price.

I also own gen watches .

If a person or persons deliberately lies and mis-informs me about a purchase then simply I am finished with that

person/dealer.

I would also wager that 95% of the members buying here feel the same way.

I think what he means though is that if turned out that what I have presented turns out to be 100% factual after all, then it would be true that every dealer is lying, and if so, what difference does it really make. I don't think it is really all that deliberate. It is just the way thing are done in that industry. Kind of like the car biz in America. The standard for car salespeople is to be full of [censored] and constantly trying to twist and move in ways to maximize the amount of money you pay for that car at all costs. It is a game and not to be taken seriously or it will just bum you out. It sucks, but it is what it is. Everyone understands the rules but since we all have to buy cars we just work our way around it and try not to let the little games car dealers play bother us. If you try to stand on a high horse about it the only one who loses is you and the end result is only that you have to stop enjoying buying a new car. Kinda the same deal with these watches IMO...

[rodwc]

Rodwc:

Do you advertise you're wearing a rep? Or do you try to pull it off? Do you secretly hope people notice the name on your watch and not the flaws? Do you enjoy being called out, or do you prefer to have people think it is gen?

All I'm saying is that almost every one of us is guilty of equal deceit to that of the dealers.

In all honesty, I never pass off a rep for a gen.

I dont have to because I could afford gens. ( not being trite or smart, just a fact )

Also I still admire the incredible workmanship and appearance of reps.

Everyone I know , also knows that I collect and have an interest in rep watches.

So all in all , I am still enjoying this hobby.

End of case for me.

[yim156]

To solve the worries of getting Rep ETA in Swiss price, we better buy watches that comes with A7750 or whatever that the sellers claim to be

Asian ETA or Axxxx.

With this, we are totally free from all lies (white, blue, gray, green, black, etc..) as they are already stated.

Man......, Please don't kick me out of this board. hahaha......

[rodwc]

@ Jon Fort.

All in all, ......... yes.

I still place more faith in human beings than I should, for my own good.

So I think we have found some common ground here.

[Noel Fleischer]

Great post -thanx. i have come to the same conclusion after buying about 30 reps

over the last few years. at first i was very naive; believing for example that the scam sites sold 'real 18kt.'

bracelets & bezels for $1200! many of my reps work fine, but maybe 40% have issues, especially with the crowns and stem mechanisms.

my watchmaker thinks the mov't are all fakes, but good.

btw- none of my gens have these issues. now i have decided pretty much to buy the 'asian' mov'ts as i did with

the new GMT2 ceramic.

what pushed me over was a rollie DD bought from Andrew. supposedly swiss eta, which came DOA.

when the back was opened i could see the mov't was dirty, and IF swiss probably used.

I personally would like to know the truth. at least @ Puretime they tell you the the mov'ts are asian clones.

[letter]

Just contacted my dealer again and asked if the movements used in their watches were swiss genuine ETA or chinese copy ETA.

His reponse was :

"Chinese copy. Actually,most of the replicas in China are with Chinese copy movement . But some of our movement are also in good quality "

Edit: This is just what my dealer says. I am not sure if it is definite however, I see no reason for him to lie about it.

[By-Tor]

This is indeed a great post! Thanks Robbie!!!

When the thread runs its course, I will pin this.

[Pix]

That all makes me happy in my behaviour of not swearing by Swiss movements only, as I did in the beginning. If I consider thzat my only problematic rep had one of these onboard, I don't see why I should pay that much to get something I don't really know "how Swiss it is"

[scoobs1971]

Thnx for the great writeup! I've always asked myself why the Chinese would only copy a 7750 and not the 2824/36. To me a real Swiss ETA is one in a sealed bag. Other than that who knows what you get...

[Pix]

Why are you upset with a rep movement, but okay with a rep dial?

Why are you upset with non-superluminova but okay with poor threading on screws?

Why are you upset with poor AR but okay with an undecorated movement?

Our standards for upset are individual and artificial. What we have to, ideally, admit to is that we want as accurate a rep as possible? And why? We'll never admit it, but we want to feel like we're wearing the gen. Why would the movement mater at all if it lasts for a very long time?

Well, when I'm buying a counterfeit Rolex with a fake dial, I know what I' doing and noone advertize them as the real thing.

When I'm buying a "genuine ETA" for (almost?) its full price, I expect it to be so : but I understood noone can rely on that anymore and I should automatically consider I'm buying an Asian clone... I'm OK with that if the price is in relation with that. That's the only point which disturbs me, and probably Rodwc too.

[ravishingrick]

I believe that when the first Panerai reps started coming out, the square bridge PAM Luminors, later the PAM27/28/29/63/188/196 we where getting genuine ETA movements possibly built from loose packs or not I don

[RWG Technical]

Well I had time to read the whole article, as well as the reply

[RobbieG]

I believe that when the first Panerai reps started coming out, the square bridge PAM Luminors, later the PAM27/28/29/63/188/196 we where getting genuine ETA movements possibly built from loose packs or not I don

[Sweattdogg]

Great topic with tons of good info and discussions. I currently only have 2 reps. One has ETA that is 4 years old and the other I know to be chinese. Both run great so no worries for me.

[Noel Fleischer]

so it would appear by the math that 'the case is closed'. how can you buy a $200 rep with a movement that costs $200?

some of the 'scammer ' site like ideal swear that they have swiss mov'ts. is it possible that @ $800 they can still put in a real

eta mov't? some of them claim to use a 7753 in the daytonas does this even exist?

[Pugwash]

so it would appear by the math that 'the case is closed'. how can you buy a $200 rep with a movement that costs $200?

They may cost $200 from Ofrei, but you can rest assured that in China they're under $80 for the surplus parts we get.

I presume the days of the $125 ETA-powered Datejust are over, but that doesn't mean we're not getting ETAs.

[RobbieG]

They may cost $200 from Ofrei, but you can rest assured that in China they're under $80 for the surplus parts we get.

I presume the days of the $125 ETA-powered Datejust are over, but that doesn't mean we're not getting ETAs.

No doubt and I wish I hadn't used the Ofrei pricing as an example. I doubt that they are willing to keep ETA watch prices where they are at close to 80 buck a movement. I bet at one time they were under 20 for the bulk stuff and that works well IMO. But even at the sub $80 mark I still have to ask myself with the low volume and little known top tier reps how the factory can mamke any money if they are genuine ETA's anymore. They are still probably turning out an ETA Sub for a little over a hundred bucks to the dealer which includes $80 worth of movement, plus the quality crystal, solid 316L, etc...and still making a profit? Lets say they make $10 a watch at this price for a watch with a genuine ETA movement after parts. Even that still doesn't add up. I mean it just doesn't seem like it is worth doing for less than 10 grand per thousand units risk wise. There are just too many people that need to get paid - not the least of which would be law enforcement. Seems like that 10 grand would be just their cut to look the other way. LOL...

[By-Tor]

Do I see anything wrong with the copy movements?

Of course not, I have been singing the praises of the A7750 for over 3 years now, yet some still say the movements are crap…

I agree... people still call it "a ticking time bomb" and all kinds of other names. But these people forget that there must be thousands of new Asian 7750's out there already. And we rarely hear any problem reports of them, 3 years after they surfaced.

It seems that the wandering '6 subdial problem and all the previous stopwatch reset problems are pretty much gone too (both very typical issues with the old movement).

[EuroTimez]

Great post RobbieG..

Gen new ETA are available but like robbieG mentioned they're quite expensive, this I can tell you as I know the buy-in prices.

The movement is however lower than 200 usd, as I think they the factories do buy them in by the 1000's. I hear that the agencies there are a sort of mafia-based (must be too, they bribe CN goverment with money, luxury cars, etc, I hear a few inside information) The different agencies will fight each other for competion sake, but will work together when there is a treat or a new agency coming up... the heads or al least the ppl running managing also come generally speaking from same/nearby cities and are of one tongue. It might sound god-father like but it is some-what reality.

I heard some info how they get ETA movements;

They run it thru official HK watch companies that are really big and is really 100.000 movements alot?! It may appear to be alot but do you know how many millions of watches are being produced so on a bigger global scale it isn't really that much, how many millions do ETA sell in asia b4 they stopped doing this ?!

I know MBK buys his movements separately from within TH. I know his stuff is real as I have all my watches caseback open and marked. on the side note he also sells ETA-COPY movements so if you don't deal with the boss but with the shopfront you will most likely receive an COPY-ETA movement in your MBK (they will say anything to sell).

In a matter of fact I talked to him a few days ago to confirm a larger order and he said I had to wait several days because the ETA movements he got were low and had to order new ones.

I know one source where I can also purchase ETA movement from an real official company here in TH at around 120-150 usd a piece but it may take several months to be had.

So I don't think there isn't any ETA movements around. I think it's just that the cost-price of ETA is getting expensive and some watches and some factories are switching and some only to be had WITH COPY ETA MOVEMENTS. some ROLEX DD factories will only supply with COPY-ETA for instance. I had one order where I had to make 2 watches into 1 because the one he ordered came only with COPY ETA movement but he PAID for GEN ETA movement, so had to get the dial + movement from one factory but case and body from another.

Personally I've seen quite a few ETA-COPY brake down so I just don't sell them generally unless at client command.

My prices are also more realistic generally starting at around +/- 300 usd for NEW GEN ETA movements. Just think of it what RobbieG is saying is very accurate try getting a gen ETA at 209 usd!!! Forget it! Dealer must also make a living! The case and all the rest is a piece of cake for the factory to make but the movement pushes the prices is most expensive ---most if not all bigger dealers have stepped over to COPY ETA, that's why your seeing them so much on the forum, perhaps they will throw in a few GEN ETA's to some members who are well known / outspoken (as some members have openly said that they get special services from certain dealers as they were with them from the beginning which is in itself nothing wrong with---.

Been telling this for a while...

1.COPY ETA (readily available and most easy to be gotten)

2.RECYCLED ETA (rusted, mixture of copy and gen etc)

3. REAL ETA (+50-100 usd more expensive then COPY and more difficult to be gotten)

Two Problems,

1.Customer wants it cheap and will believe too-good-to-be-true advertisements.

2.Dealer blantantly lies (and still does), and can always hide under the vaque cloud of "I dropship --how should I know", oh it's an incidental case (as many won't complain "openly", don't know to how differentiate, will never touch the caseback" so it's really profitable to be dishonest!

Of course they know coz they order from the factory, if you pay 100+ usd more at the factory and you're a so-called BIG BOY believe me they know.... I mean even you guys know, so how can BIG BOYS with connection to the factory NOT KNOW.... but why would they sell you the real deal if they can save 100 usd on a massive scale 100 usd x1000 watches = 100.000 usd....

And I think they sell alot more than 1000 watches so.... GO FIG.

It's not like you been lied to before...

Replace a few that openly complain, keep the difference of the ETA vs ETA copy!!!...

I guarantee tho that mine are GEN ETA MOVEMENTS, and It may be proven/disproven at any time...

Edited June 9, 2008 by EuroTimez

[EuroTimez]

Oh btw, my contacts in china told me that the price of NEW ETA dropped by like 5-10 usd a watch ---which is good for me--- because most dealers in GZ (not talking about our little community but about general dealers out side of the forum too) have stepped over to COPY ETA, so the price dropped slightly to balance it out... but 5-10 usd is not much...