sevomd Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Lets reframe the original question a bit. Say I give you $10 million of a watch fund, money you can spend ONLY on watches. What would your wish list be? Any reps at all? I'd go to China and buy myself a rep factory and churn out the best damn reps that money could buy and sell them on the forums and with all the money I made i would only buy gens... Eddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Are they exact ? No, but not being exact, does not mean that they are damaged junk.. just different enough to throw off the scent of the dogs... What exactly are you saying here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tracy Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 What exactly are you saying here? More exact =.More heat.. hence mbw is underground where it's cool... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfectionist Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) The fact that there is a Replica industry is actually good for the Genuine manufacturers !! It's true I tells ya !! This argument is very similar to the one used by the Music publishers against free MP3 swapping .... Although on the surface it looks like the big music companies are losing revenue - in reality this isn't the case at all and in fact (as recent CD sales suggest) it helps exposure and boosts sales ! Why ? Well every kid has hundreds even thousands of music tracks on his PC, most of which they got for free ...... would that kid have bought all this music if it wasn't available free ?? Hell NO !! Therfore the music industry isn't really losing any potential sales !! This kid will however still madly support his best loved bands by purchasing their latest CD's and buying the concert tickets and getting the T-shirts and merchandise etc etc .... The fact that he has a 1,000 other bands sitting on his PC only means he will be listening to music that he probably would never have bought before ...... out of these 1,000 he may fall in love with a couple of other bands which he will follow and support and therfore spend money on ...... Plus you gotta remember that free/fake is never going to be genuine in his girlfriends eyes !! The music you listen to is part of who you are and people will never be impressed with a collection of files stuck on a computer hard disk ....... when he brings his friends over (especially his girlfriend!) they will be impressed by flicking through his CD collection and talking about the music they have in common ...... nobody is gonna squint in front of a PC screen and say "hey dude, your in to U2, so am I, thats so cool!" or "baby, love the way you don't spend a single penny on your love for music, your obviously ain't gonna spend a penny on me either!" How does this relate to Watches ...... well most Rep buyers probably could/would never buy the Genuine version ..... the Gen Brands don't lose any sales there ...... The few, very few who have decided on never buying a Gen because of the Rep industry are far out weighed by those who originally would have been happy with a Citizen but decided to buy a high end Rep ...... which fostered an interest in watches they didn't have before and eventually led to them buying a Gen ...... the Gen Brands GAIN sales here ...... Add in the fact that all these people are wearing Reps in the workplace and social functions (usually being represented as being the real thing!) and you have many onlookers admiring these beautiful fakes and planting the idea to get a nice Brand for themselves ...... either from appreciation of the watch ..... or just to keep up with the Jones's !!! = the Gen Brands GAIN sales here as well ..... The fascinating thing that is so obvious but seems to be the MAIN thing that is being overlooked in the Gen vs Rep debate ...... is that Genuine watches are an Investment !! They are a store of wealth, a holding vehicle for cold hard cash !! In the same way that people buy a new car knowing it will naturally depreciate, but will still be worth a considerable amount of money should they wish to sell it ...... A used Rep is only ever gonna be worth a hundred bucks and will eventually become worthless ....... a used Rolex will be worth 10K and may even go up in value over time ..... Tom Cruise in RainMan pawned his Rolex to get the money to play the Casinos with Dustin Hoffman ...... this is why the Rep industry isn't harming anyone ...... cos in monetary terms, Replicas ain't worth [censored] ! OK, now tomorrow I will be lecturing on Abortion Rights and over the weekend my thesis on The Meaning Of Life ...... Edited July 13, 2006 by Perfectionist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 I'm always a bit puzzled by the people who say they would never ever ever ever pass their reps off as genuine. Do you mean to say that if you are asked directly you will admit to owning a rep? Or do you affix some sort of signage on your heavily modded LV's that indicates it's status as a replica? Otherwise, someone may look at your watch and assume it's real but not ask you directly if it is real, which, it seems to me, means that you are most certainly passing off a rep as a genuine. In fact if one abhiors the passingoff of reps as genuine, why not head down to the mall and buy a perfectly well built watch which appears almost identical to, say, an Omega and is powered by an ETA movement. That watch would also come with a warranty, may actually be 50m water resistant, and would never ever be advertised as Perfect or even "Perfect." I mean you would never ever want anyone to think you were wearing an Omega , would you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sailadams Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Do you think that one out of a hundred people actually notice your watch? Or that one out of a thousand might be fooled that it is a "real" Panerai, or Breguet, or IWC? Not one out of ten-thousand people have even heard of a Panerai, etc. The only kind of "rep" knockoffs I worry about are things like, say, brakepads, which might kill me and someone else if they don't work like I thought they would. Not fashion brands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerich Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Here's where it's odd ... While I disagree wholeheartedly with Nemo's opinion, I still buy reps. I know it's basically criminal and in theory undermines intellectual property laws, laws that fed and clothed me for a period of my life when I was a games publisher, but I gotta have me some watchy goodness. It is wrong, it is illegal, it is costing some honest Joe cash, but I needs me some Rolex, Omega or Panerai action. This is the honest response for most of us. I wish people would stop trying to sugarcoat it and try to prove that it's somehow the gen watch companies' fault they buy reps, or show that reps somehow represent the pinnacle of intelligent decision making completely unrelated to looking like more expensive genuine goods. Give me a f*cking break. Every one of you know perfectly well that Tissot, Invicta, Zeno and Hamilton, Time Factors and any number of legit companies are more than happy to sell you good-quality automatics for $100 and up. The $120 Seiko Orange Monster is better made than ANY rep. So it's not because "nobody sells autos at fair prices," or "you can't buy good watches for rep money." That's complete [censored]. You want the fake brand name on there more than anything, just admit it and live with it. It doesn't make you a terrible person, certainly not worse than having a deluded sense of self. And the stuff about how Rolex, etc. "rip people off" is weak. Guess what? Nobody has to buy a Rolex. If you want one that's your call, but don't blame Rolex because you can't distinguish between wants and needs. In any case, Rolexes are mostly bought by twits with more money than sense and Rolex plows back most of its profits into charity. So the idea that Joe Six-Pack is "screwed" by Rolex and has to therefore "get back" by buying reps is laughable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 While these are interesting arguments, I cannot help but wonder how you determined that there is no "watch cartel," especially since the government, using a legion of professional investigators with subpoena power and an unlimited budget came to the exact opposite conclusion. I agree, the US government never ever ever lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 I don't see how there could be a "watch monopoly" or cartel when I can go buy a timex for $40 bucks; or a random mechanical invicta, etc for (just guessing) $400. If people want to pay $4000, but something with the same function is available for less money, then that just seem's like a person's perogative to spend their money as they personally see fit. Obviously someone buying a luxury watch wants to pay the money, else they would get a cheap watch with the same functionality. It would be different if all oil companys got together and collectively decided to set prices on something we can't get anywhere else and need. Oh wait... that happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 The fact that there is a Replica industry is actually good for the Genuine manufacturers !! It's true I tells ya !! No it isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fkhill33 Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 I don't see how there could be a "watch monopoly" or cartel when I can go buy a timex for $40 bucks; or a random mechanical invicta, etc for (just guessing) $400. If people want to pay $4000, but something with the same function is available for less money, then that just seem's like a person's perogative to spend their money as they personally see fit. Obviously someone buying a luxury watch wants to pay the money, else they would get a cheap watch with the same functionality. It would be different if all oil companys got together and collectively decided to set prices on something we can't get anywhere else and need. Oh wait... that happened. Agree. Imagine a perfect world in fairlyland where Rolex and Panerai sell their watches at costs, lets say $200, would you still buy a rolex or Panerai and wear it with such a large smile on your face? No, you'll be drooling over that Timex that is all over magazines and sells for $10,000. Common guys, we wear reps because we like the watch and for one reason or another we don't want to spend a whole lot of cash on a watch, its not because you hate Rolex or you hate your government.... that is so lame. just my 2 cent =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarks Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 There used to be a time when I told myself that I would never spend that insane amount of money on a genuine watch when I can get a replica for a fraction of the cost. But as I move along, I began to explore the brands I like. I began to look more in depth about the history, the story behind the watchmaking phenomenon. Over time, I realised there is more to it than just an object that tells time. There is a whole lot more to it. As I read more and more, I began to adopt a whole new appreciation for watches, ironically including the reps I had. Among the reps I have, I have a top few which I really love and one day decided to buy the gens. The experience opened up a whole new horizon for me.... and I love it. Overpriced? Maybe. To me, I am buying more than the watch itself and I am willing to invest on that. The thing I love about buying watches is watching my taste evolve over time with the newly added timepieces. Plus, I tend to educate myself more before buying a gen. whereas with reps, I simply just click and pay...sometimes w/o thinking twice (happening too often I must say). Do I still buy reps? You bet. Buying reps is a good opportunity for me to try watches. And if I like it a whole lot, I would def. be investing on a gen. I still wear some of my reps as often as I wear my gens and love them as much as my gens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornerstone Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 I don't see how there could be a "watch monopoly" or cartel when I can go buy a timex for $40 bucks; or a random mechanical invicta, etc for (just guessing) $400. If people want to pay $4000, but something with the same function is available for less money, then that just seem's like a person's perogative to spend their money as they personally see fit. Obviously someone buying a luxury watch wants to pay the money, else they would get a cheap watch with the same functionality. The cartel issue has been debated before - I think a key point is that Rolex don't sell straight to consumers, their market is high end jewellers and retailers. If, for example, Rolex were able to tell those dealers not to sell grey imports or lose all their supply and dealer status that would be anti-competitive. Whether those dealers accepted would indicate Rolex's market strength - in a truly competitive market, they would say "screw you then - we'll sell these other watches instead." But, if they run scared it is evidence of a dominant market position. I think a high end retailer in an expensive street with massive rents would be quite scared to lose two or three of the biggest brands. High end watches are about more than telling the time. As we all know, you can tell the time more accurately for a couple of bucks. They are effectively fashion accessories - jewellery. And their most valuable asset is that they provide status. That's where all the money is at. But amongst all this, is the fact that mechanical watches are also little machines - boys' toys. Many watch enthusiasts are really into this aspect; moreso I would say on a rep forum where a lot of the watches become 'projects'. After all, you would be a bit of an ass to try to claim higher social status for your fake Rollie in a room full of fake Rollies! When that's all said and done - I think Pugwash was on the money here. We see, we like, we want, we get cheap. Canny consumerism, and avoidance of "buyer's remorse". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tag Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 While these are interesting arguments, I cannot help but wonder how you determined that there is no "watch cartel," especially since the government, using a legion of professional investigators with subpoena power and an unlimited budget came to the exact opposite conclusion. This legal [censored] does not impress me, and the fact it comes from your governement does not make it worthy to me! Again please check the definition of "cartel" because even the US gov. would recognize there isn't any. This subpoena isn't about cartel. The problem that you are overlooking is the fact that it is the manufacturers, not the market, commanding the prices. The reason that this is a problem is that we have a law against it - the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Perhaps this introduction to the situation from my investigative web site will help clarify things. I agree that manufacturers play a role in pricing of course... but not without the market. If nobody buys a toothbrush at $100, nobody will sell it... The market sets the price. If Omega's sales slows down, they will slow down the prices hikes -otherwise they may shut down the shop after a while. So in the end the market sets prices. And on the "rip-off" argument, like somebody said earlier, there is no rip-off of any sort as you are not required to buy nor sold something that is significantly overvalued. You're not being cheated on the quality nor on the brand name. You buy something partly tangible (watch), partly intangible (brand) but you do get you you paid for. I think that we, rep buyers, should be honest about this. It's useless to look for an argument that would reduce our guilt in acquiring a replica. If I do buy a rep, I am for sure cheating the brand that is replicated -and infringing some laws too. I do it because there are some watch designs I find cool but can't afford. You can think (some) luxury watches are overpriced or not, anyway these watchmakers are not ripping off anybody! This said, I'm not trying to convince you and respect you point of view. No animosity here! tag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 I have always though a great majority of gen owners are not buying a high-end watch because they like it... they are buying it so they chan have 10K on their wrist. Kinda like a peacock showing its feathers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linder Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 I am a watch person. I really like a few of the high-end luxury watches. The opportunity cost of purchasing a genuine is, for me, too high. Therefore I am purchasing the best replicas I can find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAHLER Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) This is my one opinion. I'm spellbound from the mechanics. The world of the reps doesn't strike the really important watches. A watches from the great mechanism able to disclose the genius of who has created it... that watches will never be copied. The world of the genuine ones is made of watches that are not worth really their cost. If exist great mechanism for great watch ... no reps of this exist. Edited July 13, 2006 by MAHLER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omni Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 I have always though a great majority of gen owners are not buying a high-end watch because they like it... they are buying it so they chan have 10K on their wrist. Kinda like a peacock showing its feathers. So you are saying all rich people are snobs? I am going to make a sweeping statement that it might be a geographic divide between East and West. I digress: In the USA, the Rolex and to a lesser extent the Cartier brand, is really where your statement partially fits, lots of folks buy these watches to show as a symbol that they've "made it" and for no other reason except to be in your face. I deem them a minority, they usually know nothing about the watch, who have heard it is the best money can buy. This is a sad fact for true Rolex fans who appreciate the watch for what it is. In the US most luxury brand watches aren't even known by the person on the street. You can't imagine the amount of people in the US who have never heard of Patek Phillip. In the Orient, everyone has heard of all the luxury brands, and a majority buy them for the brand name recognition only. But it seems it is a societal thing there, everyone wants to show off when they've made it. But my experience in this country, is that a majority who buy genuines are either buying the watch because they can without thinking and really appreciate the feel or design or mechanics/history or a combination of all the aforementioned reasons. The amount of money is a secondary thought to a majority of purchasers of luxury items. If you have the money to be in that rarified buying atmosphere for Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Porsche, etc., believe me, you'll choose which one because of the car, not the cost. I'm sorry I can't speak for the European members but I'm sure my last statement would ring true there too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovepanerai Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 I have always though a great majority of gen owners are not buying a high-end watch because they like it... they are buying it so they chan have 10K on their wrist. Kinda like a peacock showing its feathers. I believe that argument is rather true for 98% of replica owners (Rolex being the most replicated watch) - Only few people on this planet would know that a genuine Breguet sells for $10k up to several 100k$'s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 I'm sorry I can't speak for the European members but I'm sure my last statement would ring true there too. The difference being there's some very old money here. By the way, if you're going to make statements about "this country" it would help that you filled in your Location in your profile as I had to guess you were in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omni Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 By the way, if you're going to make statements about "this country" it would help that you filled in your Location in your profile as I had to guess you were in the US. Okay Pugwash, I'm guilty as charged of American arrogance. I've changed my profile, couldn't find "Hawaii" as a country so had to settle for USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridnwind Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 I went into a high end watch shop in Portland last week, that also specialized in new and used Rolex. The owners jaw dropped when he saw this on my wrist and he followed me around the store like a puppy dog. I got the red carpet service, while looking at his large collection of REAL watches. Well, anyway I bought this Rep WM 1665 for me...and an occasional "flash" in front of Gen owners to watch them exhibit a "giddy squirm" in the satisfaction of seeing my REP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 So you are saying all rich people are snobs? I am going to make a sweeping statement that it might be a geographic divide between East and West. notice I said "great majority," not "all" I do think a lot of it is show-off; at least here in the US. Even for the less well known brands, those aren't bought to impress the random person on the street here in the US, but other well-off people who are most likely more familiar with luxury brands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosePR Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 Because 'Style & Taste' should not be measured by how much you spend.... very true, even if i were rich i would not spend 4 grand on a watch that for 400, it is virtually "perfect" or identical to the genuine. Yet we are the smart people who realize that its not the higher the price, the better the watch. $1200for a quartz stainless steel watch pffffff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 I think the attraction for the expensive brands is also the movement. They are works of mechanical art. Our reps can't compete with that. They do compete on appearance. It's what's under the hood that counts. In most cases, a rep is like driving a ferrari with a VW under the hood. ....but then again, I'm into appearances for appearances sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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