George , wm9 , real gold , watchmaker9 , TT

[vmena]

Here's basically the way we should look at it.

I guess some of us may have a different view... isn't it?

There are things that are 'part of the business' that will never change so we just need to accept them

Fakey... of course you can take the easy way... which is accepting things as they are... I'm happy that in the past not everybody did the same because maybe today there

[involt]

BTW... I must say that it's been a long time a go I did no participate son intensively in a thread... and (among other's) it is because of the human quality of participants and the level of education... thanks to all

Great to hear, my friend... heartfelt thanks to you

[RobbieG]

@vmena I think it is great that you have kept up the good fight on this particular issue over the years. It is true that progress has been made on many fronts by questioning the Canal street regime. Things get better on the dealer front all the time. Like I said, I am not really the guy to ask as I haven't been active purchasing lately, but maybe I got lucky over the years.

I never had any problems with my dealer or cherry picking for me, QC, etc. from that front. My issues all stem from the factories. But in fairness, even they are doing way better than ever - just not up to the level that I want for my watches lately in large part. I suspect that we are nearing the peak of what can be expected from small sweat shops with unskilled labor though in that regard. It is maybe pretty remarkable how good they can produce stuff when you look at it that way. If I had watchsmith skills or time it wouldn't be a problem. I could clean dials, straighten DW, center bezel detents - spit and glue, etc. But for a guy like me, a watch has to arrive pretty much "done" or I'm in for a trip to the post to send it off to someone to fix something. It isn't the time or the money there that started to bug me - it was the effort to correct silly stuff...

[vmena]

I fully agree with you Robbie. It's also my case about watchmaker skills... Although I'm lucky because I have a watchmaker near home who can fix some issues, professional watchmakers are not skilled in rep mods, and when you ask them to sharp CG's or replace inserts that need to be trimmed, first they look at you like saying "this is not a watchmaker job" or they charge a lot because it takes them many time to be able to do it.

Therefore, you need to develop some skills, because, as an example, sizing a SFSO rep bracelet takes double of time and effort than sizing a genuine. So I do it at home rather than taking it onto a jewelry (not an AD, of course).

I'm confident that in the future, at least for some high quality reps, we can count with people like BK for QC and customer reationships...

[bwhitesox]

WTF are you guys on about LOL

[RobbieG]

Oh not much really, just the single most important underlying issue that effects everyone who collects replica watches. You kill me sometimes Sox...

WTF are you guys on about LOL

[fakemaster]

Fakey... of course you can take the easy way... which is accepting things as they are...

With all due respect, I have never taken the easy way out. Josh threatened to have me killed for calling him out and I didn't back down so spare me.

Nobody's is trying to make anyone to think in any particular way... we are just sharing opinions...

Everyone is entitled to a different viewpoint. All I said was people will do what they want. I know what WM9 is all about and have been saying it for a year. I also told everyone not to buy the GMTIIc. And while I'm at it please buy more @12 AP Roos. I need some more amusement.

[RobbieG]

Yeah, I'm fine with bracelets but I stop there. The other things are what I can't do. I just discovered that the little details are what move me in horology and that is what drove me to gens. I mean I really wish I wasn't a gen guy actually. If I could do my own work I probably wouldn't be, but if a rep out of the box doesn't nail the vibe of the gen it must be fixed/modded.

Take the PO as a great example. dluddy has a great one that is every bit as nice as the gen and he has maybe $800 into it. Correct logo transplant, relume, double AR, gen crown and hands, etc. Perfect. If I had the inclination I would have the same watch instead of the gen I bought. Or even small things like a crooked dial or DW that doesn't line up or bezel that wont center. Those are the things I can't live without. And here is the distinction for me it isn't how accurate the rep is to the gen visually. At this point even marginal reps are usually fine in that respect. But the little details of QC type errors - fingerprints, crooked stuff, too loose, threads stripping, rotor grind. That is the stuff that drives me crazy. For me horology is all about those little details. Serifs on a logo font mean nothing to me...

That said, all those things I mentioned can usually be fixed. I just ran out of interest in the "projects" as I kept getting disappointed. So precision, not accuracy drove me to gens hence my opinions really in this whole post. To me, the lack of truthfulness is sort of the least of my worries because even when I get the watch I see in the picture I'm probably going to have to do something to it - so whether it is real ETA or real gold or whatever doesn't matter if the cyclops is crooked or dates don't drop in the center. Fake gold or real gold - unless that is fixed who cares as far as I'm concerned...

I fully agree with you Robbie. It's also my case about watchmaker skills... Although I'm lucky because I have a watchmaker near home who can fix some issues, professional watchmakers are not skilled in rep mods, and when you ask them to sharp CG's or replace inserts that need to be trimmed, first they look at you like saying "this is not a watchmaker job" or they charge a lot because it takes them many time to be able to do it.

Therefore, you need to develop some skills, because, as an example, sizing a SFSO rep bracelet takes double of time and effort than sizing a genuine. So I do it at home rather than taking it onto a jewelry (not an AD, of course).

I'm confident that in the future, at least for some high quality reps, we can count with people like BK for QC and customer reationships...

[RobbieG]

I must have missed this - calling him out on what and in what context did he threaten your life? I hadn't heard that as I kind of missed that whole Josh/RWI thing and the little details. Do tell...

With all due respect, I have never taken the easy way out. Josh threatened to have me killed for calling him out and I didn't back down so spare me.

[fakemaster]

It was on RWG1. I called him out on movement swirching. Told people to open their wathces. They did and it cost him a lot of money and sales. He got [censored] and threatened to kill me. JB even told him to go ahead and do it. Nothing to do with RWI. But it was the main reason I helped them out.

[RobbieG]

So you are saying he sent you an email or PM or something and said he was going to kill you if you didn't shut up or he was going to kill you period? Either way, all I can say is wow. Seems a little extreme for a guy who is going to sell a lot of watches no matter what anyone says on these boards - wholesaleing I mean to other resellers...

It was on RWG1. I called him out on movement swirching. Told people to open their wathces. They did and it cost him a lot of money and sales. He got [censored] and threatened to kill me. JB even told him to go ahead and do it. Nothing to do with RWI. But it was the main reason I helped them out.

[vmena]

It was on RWG1. I called him out on movement swirching. Told people to open their wathces. They did and it cost him a lot of money and sales. He got [censored] and threatened to kill me. JB even told him to go ahead and do it. Nothing to do with RWI. But it was the main reason I helped them out.

I remember... it was the very beginning of questioning if we had swiss or Chinese movements inside our watches...

[bklm1234]

@involt: I can understand your passion. I apologize for calling your study stupid. Don't give up the fight, the need for truth. You might do some harm and some good in the short term but you are helping in the long run. I'm too mellow, practical, and jaded to do the same.

BTW, George said he would do a v2 TT sub in about 2 months. He probably will say 18k wrapped gold now, or..........NOT. LOL. But seriously, I'm happy it's back because nobody else does it better.

-bk

Edited January 4, 2009 by bklm1234

[MAHLER]

There is a point I'd like to clarify here. As far I'm concerned at least, the current discussion regards the general rules that apply to the rep world rather than the WM9 behaviour. I would like to emphasize that my findings about the gold had been strictly confined to the WM9 forum, in context of a hidden thread; raising a specific question about the WM9 behaviour wasn't my intention, for the moment at least.

Fakemaster is right when says that the only posts of styler concern the WM9 matter. My guess is that styler on one hand was caught up because he wanted to purchase a watch, becoming disappointed by my findings; on the other hand, he wanted to be a little bit in the limelight (and this is someway understandable), being the gold issue an argument "strong" enough to achieve such a result. After all, the thread has reached a total of more than 1200 views. However, I'm satisfied he meant no harm.

Anyway, we could take the opportunity, given by this thread, to debate a bit more deeply the subject concerning the reliability of the dealers.

Fakemaster started a thread where he set out some criteria that would allow us to determine if a given dealer is trustworthy or he is not. Theoretically, the criteria seem to be rigorous enough; practically, there is room for doubt.

what does exactly mean:

Shipped a product that was inferior or not as described

or

Grossly overcharged for products

or

Behaves in a manner which is not considered ethical

If someone claims that his product is in solid gold whereas it is not, or he claims that the product is equipped with a genuine ETA movement when it actually contains a clone at best, is he providing a truthful description? Is he going to ship a product that isn't inferior?

If he asks for a given price, and the item isn't consistent with the description but it's inferior, is he overcharging for the product?

And, above all, who can establish if such a behaviour is ethical? What does exactly mean "is not considered"? By who? Who should hold the balance? The community? How does it work? When I receive the inconsistent item I have to publish the picture, and if the community says "crappy" I can label the seller as a scammer, whereas if someone says "after all, not bad" I have to happily keep my lemon?

When a seller says that some parts are in solid gold whereas they aren't, are he behaving ethically? Is its behaviour ethical when the price, in someone opinion (if possible, a friend of the seller) is "too low", becoming unethical when the price increases?

The fakemaster initiative is undoubtely praiseworthy, and I don't want to flame anyone here, but we should realize that we should use more precise parameters; otherwise, any criterion becomes useless.

I think the same thing, my experience with WM9 was bad, banned several times since his false forum because I've asked some details and put pics, insulted by email, threatened complaint through my IP address to my ISP. For me George simply does not exist. I'm happy that there are respectable dealers like bklm1234 or PT here who can get this reps without I've dealings with George.

[involt]

I think the same thing, my experience with WM9 was bad, banned several times since his false forum because I've asked some details and put pics, insulted by email, threatened complaint through my IP address to my ISP. For me George simply does not exist. I'm happy that there are respectable dealers like bklm1234 or PT here who can get this reps without I've dealings with George.

This is another much-debated question. George usually behaves in a kind and polite way. Maybe he not always tells the truth, but the behaviour is often impeccable. Every now and then he comes out with some really odd things. I hope he'll revise this strange attitude after this event.

@involt: I can understand your passion. I apologize for calling your study stupid. Don't give up the fight, the need for truth. You might do some harm and some good in the short term but you are helping in the long run. I'm too mellow, practical, and jaded to do the same.

BTW, George said he would do a v2 TT sub in about 2 months. He probably will say 18k wrapped gold now, or..........NOT. LOL. But seriously, I'm happy it's back because nobody else does it better.

-bk

The big thing is that we have cleared up the air, setting the record straight. I've cleared up the misunderstanding with George too; I hope he will send me the "missing watch" as soon as possible.

This won't turn the brass into gold, but it is of no importance: the issue wasn't the real composition of the bracelet

If a good thing follows this event, I'll be glad

In the same way, if a good thing results from our dispute, I'll be glad.

Both you and I will have been useful to community.

I certainly accept your apologies, and I thank you for this.

Peace

involt

[offshore]

I have been following this thread with interest, and just now took the time to reread it.

Would like to go a little OT, to make one comment.

It is pleasing, and gratifying, to see a discussion/debate, take place, without too much flaming, and personal attacks.

The very reason for being for forums such as this, should be to allow informed and open debate.

How otherwise can we all become better informed?

We must all take what we will from the discussions, and finally reach our own conclusions.

Censorship in any open forum, should not be required, and is only undertaken here should discussions become personal and heated.

When forums such as the Replicacentre one, remove or do not post articles, which are contrary to their aims, (which is selling product), the basics of open discussion obviously become invalid.

Are we seeing similar traits in other fora here?

Thank you gentlemen, for having this discussion, without resorting to personal attacks, and allowing it to degenerate into a flame fest.

It gives good reason to continue to assist this forum.... to allow any and all to have their say, and view the outcomes.

Now back to the discussion->

Offshore

[jake48]

@involt: I can understand your passion. I apologize for calling your study stupid. Don't give up the fight, the need for truth. You might do some harm and some good in the short term but you are helping in the long run. I'm too mellow, practical, and jaded to do the same.

BTW, George said he would do a v2 TT sub in about 2 months. He probably will say 18k wrapped gold now, or..........NOT. LOL. But seriously, I'm happy it's back because nobody else does it better.

-bk

No need for long winded posts ad nauseum. bk said it all right there! Nice job of making sense of the nonsense.

I'll check back in a month or so for some more entertainment to see if the usual suspects are still boosting their thread count to this all ready beat to death topic!

[twon1212]

Since I am not the rep collection, and new member on this forum and repgeeks.com, I find this all comments and statments helpful and useful. Having both positive and negative perspectives will help me decide on what to purchase and whom to purchase from this week. I purchased my first rep, DSN MM20 PVD. It is one of my favoriate watches, and I will be another from him. However, it took me about month of conducting solid research on the charcter and quality of Davidsen. I read several post, across many different boards before deciding to go with instead of another highly regarded member for a few reasons. There was a great deal of information on the watch builder, quality of his products, and variety of products. He was the best buy in terms of quality for the price.

If I remember correctly, Davidson had similar issues posted on few other forums. However, the member wasn't attacked or bullied. Nor were stating that ' if he say it's true then it is'. As a consumer making in investment in product and relationship, one would like to have all the facts, good and bad, before parting with his/her cash. For me, I trust DSN. He has been very helpful before, during, and after the sale.

I am not as knowldgable here as some, so I am the type of person that will read post and ask questions. For example, I pre-order a watch from BK on repgeeks.com. Because of the reasons I listed about Davidsen, and more. For me, I am more comfortable in purchasing from somone I can communicate with throughout the pre and post purchase sale. Because of this, it's a challenge for me to go with a drop shipper since you have a good chance of not getting what you paid for.

So, I am enjoying this post, and feel that the original poster has every right to ask and validate his questions and share his feelings...good or bad. It's also free speech, and it shouldn't be regulated.

See, hear we go... Can you chew gum and walk at the same time??? :D :D :D :D :D

Everyone should keep an open mind when reading through forum posts . You know... the glass is half full/half empty. Instead of automatically thinking I'm out to bash wm9, couldn't one just as easily think that my post was made because I am interested in a wm9 watch at this time and my research has turned up some things that have made me doubt his claims and I'm just sharing what has come to light? I'm not out to get anyone, but when something smells fishy, I think it should be reported for all to see. Not buried

I guess the drama can be entertaining, but not my true intent. I believe in sharing knowledge if it helps others. Sometimes it's good news and sometimes it's bad news for both sellers and buyers.

I remember getting ready to pull the trigger on the "Check Out" button on Blue Fakes but something inside told me not to. I searched for many, many days and finally came across the forums (just like everyone else) and received sound advice from so many helpful folks, it only seems right to take the time to report things of this nature to help others as I've been helped.