teddy boy Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 I am an avid cyclist. The bike shop owner and I have become good friends, he is also a watch lover. In his bike shop he sells large numbers of watches, heart rate monitors and bicycle computers, all of which take watch batteries. Because he buys watch batteries in sufficient quantities, he has an account with one of the leading wholesale companies. I meant to remember the name of the wholesaler but frankly I don't do details like that very well. My friend recently became interested in buying a rep Patek Philipe so I showed him some rep sites. That led to a discussion about whether it is possible to build a watch of the proported quality and sell it at the prices that the dealers recommended on this site charge. My friend said, "well, let's see", and pulls the catalog (which I previously didn't know he had) off the shelf. After looking at the catalog, I can assure you that it is possible to build watches of the quality claimed and make a profit. A few of the prices that I remember are sapphire glass crystals for around $12, asia 7750 movements for $16, 316 stainless watch cases for $10-15 and 316 stainless braclets for $10. These prices were for relatively small purchases quantities, in some cases quantities as small as 1 provided the overall order met some minimum dollar amount. While it is true that these prices were generally for generic watch parts or replacement items for specific high demand gens (such as rolex), it would seem that the rep manufacturers are producing in sufficient quantities to get these prices or lower for parts manufactured to rep a specific watch such as a case to rep a sub or a particular PAM. Adding the prices of the components together, it appeared that you could manufacture a pretty high quality watch at a material cost somewhere in the range of $60-80 from this catalog. Again, it would seem that the rep manufacturers are paying these wholesale costs or less even for the parts to rep a particular watch. Given where the watches are made, the labor costs wouldn't add much (percentage wise) to the cost of the parts. So my conclusion is that it is definitely possible to make a profit selling high quality reps at the prices advertised. That, of course, doesn't mean they actually do it since you could make a bigger profit selling junk at those prices if you're able to dupe customers into believing that the items are high quality. Before anyone asks, it's not possible for a private individual to obtain one of these catalogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chubbchubb Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't think that this will surprise anyone who is seriously into watches. There is a pretty high ratio between the real hardcore manufacturing cost of many watches and the final retail - or does anyone really believe that a ss submariner costs a couple of thousand dollar to manufacture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddy boy Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 The motivation for my post was the claim earlier in the year that the costs of high quality components has gotten so high that it's no longer possible to manufacture a high quality rep for sale at the prices we were paying a couple of years ago. My quick look at the catalog suggests that the facts just don't support the notion that you can no longer sell high quality reps in the $200 range and make a nice profit. I realize that rep manufacturer's incur certain costs related to the sale of an illegal item. Whether those costs justify the apparent margins is a subject open to debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 My quick look at the catalog suggests that the facts just don't support the notion that you can no longer sell high quality reps in the $200 range and make a nice profit. I realize that rep manufacturer's incur certain costs related to the sale of an illegal item. Whether those costs justify the apparent margins is a subject open to debate. The cost is justified if the buyer is willing to pay. In some cases, factor in $5,000 for the purchase of the gen...and all the custom parts for an individual model and the price goes up a lot. Buying stock generic cases and movements is very low cost. BUT, if you look at having high quality machining, polishing, painting, etc of a pile of individual components, the production samples, custom mold making, etc, the cost goes up exponentially. No gen is worth the price people pay for them. That's understood. As to the cost of purchase wholesale for a high quality rep??? Watchmark's factory price sale is an indicator of the cost of lower volume wholesale from the factories and shows how much profit is made on the watches. I'm guessing that at an average profit from wholesale cost of between $100-$175/watch...just to recoup the genuine sample purchase generally needs between 20-30 reps of the watch being sold...but factor in the development cost of the rep production costs, and you're likely needing to sell 50 reps before you start to turn a profit. That's actually not many pieces...which allows them to produce huge volumes and variety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddy boy Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 I am an economist and fully agree that an item is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. As I said previously in the thread, my post was motivated by the assertion earlier this year that you can no longer manufacture high quality reps for sale at the prices that existed a couple of years ago. Without calling anyone out, various collectors were making this claim in their forums. Based upon what I saw and also the points that you made, a more accurate statement would be that you can't sell at those former prices and earn the profit margin that you're seeking. My point would be that the higher prices of replicas are probably more a demand phenomonon rather than a supply (cost)driven event. The greater demand likely being due to the combination of a booming economy at the time and greater access to and knowledge of high quality reps. It will be interesting to see what happens to retail rep prices as the worlds' economy slides into a severe recession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 I buy all my watch material at wholesale prices. An Asian 7750 sells for $125 wholesale, not $16...not sure where that pricing is coming from, but that is well below any wholesale I have ever seen. The rest of the pricing seems normal, but your forgetting that you need dials, hands, someone to assemble the parts etc. I don't think it's that simple or easy to do, a generic watch - maybe, but anything else it's not going to be possible. I find it interesting that a bicycle shop has access to not only a catalogue of watch material, but wholesale prices for watches, when he's not a watchmaker or jewellery shop...I wish I had access to these prices and parts... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 also, super reps are custom made cases and bracelets, not out of a generic wholesale book, so there iss ome original machining - movement adaptation Stuff adds up quick- but, we all know our friendly dealers make $$, i mena they aren't here on a mission from g-d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Like Ziggy just mentioned I was going to say to you, buy 20 of those $16 Asian 7750's and I bet you can sell them in 5 minutes on the board at 50 bucks each. $16 is just a silly price. That said I agree that todays prices has more to do with the dealers profit margins than cost from manufacturer. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddy boy Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 I saw the price in the catalog with my own eyes. When my friend found the asia 7750 he asked me to guess the price. I said, oh what, $75, $100. He responded, no, $16 and showed it to me in the catalog. Maybe it was a sale, maybe the movements are garbage, but I did see the price. The $16 movement price did shock me. It was the piece of information that really made me rethink the notion that you can't produce a quality rep for under $200 and was thus the piece of information that prompted my initial post. The same catalog has similarly low prices on a 26 jewel "rolex style" movement. I don't know rolex movements well enough to know if or when they had 26 jewels. I share that to point out that the asia 7750 wasn't the only suprisingly cheap movement. As an economist, I understand the importance of scale economies in sourcing these parts. I would think that for the more popular reps it would be easy to make the numbers necessary to exhaust all scale economies and incur costs comparable to the prices I saw in the catalog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letter Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 are you going to buy some then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iflylow78 Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 as a total aside where is a good source to buy watch cases to build your own (not looking to make reps) but something of my own. the only place i have seen is ofrei and I am not real fond of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 $16 is an amazing price, I have even gone direct to PTS resources and never got a price near that. It would be worth spending $100 on a few of these and see what you get, easily sell for $50 and up, even $125, as an economist, it's probably the only thing going up in the market lately RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 I guess one question would be... does "asia 7750" refer to only one movement? Maybe this one has 3600 bph and 3 jewels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddy boy Posted January 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 chieftang may have offered an explanation. There were no real details regarding the characteristics of the movement so it is possible that it's not very high quality. I doubt that I will order them for sale as that's a little too real world to suit my tastes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailboss Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 I can source for about 60usd but 16? I think the cheif has the answer. All the same, but a dozen and flog 'em off, you can't lose. Col. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 There were no real details regarding the characteristics of the movement Quite strange there are not just a couple of lines with some minimum info. I second the idea of buying a couple of those movs. Being a customer, it wouldn't be difficult for your friend to shot a mail to supplier asking for details on these Asian mov. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddy boy Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 The next time that I'm in the bike shop I'm going to ask my friend to check if there is a minimum number on that particular item. If there isn't, I'll ask him if he will order one for me. If all that works out, I'll see if The Zigmeister or some other knowledgeable person on the forum would be willing to inspect the movement to see if it's any good. I'm really not interested in getting into selling movements to the forum. However, the economist in me is extremely curious to know if a $16 movement is worth having. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Thanks teddy. We appreciate your effort and contribution to the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombat247 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Before anyone asks, it's not possible for a private individual to obtain one of these catalogs. Of course it's possible. You just don't know how to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedo Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I wonder if maybe there was a typo in the magazine, and it should have read $160, not $16. And remember, although not 7750's, you can get movements for under $10 each, depending on what they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddy boy Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Actually I stated that incorrectly. Of course it's possible to get one of the catalogs, I'm sure my friend would give me one other than the most recent. The problem is that theompany won't sell to individuals. My friend told me that he established his account at the suggestion of the jewelry store that is next door to him. He had been ordering his batteries through them. There were many hoops my friend had to jump through to prove that he owned a retail business before they would allow him to open him account. To that end, it would be extremely difficult for one of us to order from the company. So far as the misprint in the catalog is concerned, I would be surprised because the "rolex type" movement was in about the same price range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smc Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Well, I'll take a couple of 2824/2836s and a couple of 7750s seconds at 9... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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