freddy333 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 In another thread, Ziggy touched on a subject that I think merits further comment. Along with still-sky-high vintage Rolex parts prices, I have been noticing an increasingly disturbing trend over the past year - defective Rolex movements & franken bracelets being sold (mostly on ebay) as 'genuine' parts by (mainly) Asian sellers (some with good, lengthy selling histories). Popular vintage Rolex bracelets, especially, seem to be flooding ebay's auction sections lately. Until a few months ago, I used to have to search for a couple of weeks to find a single ratty 7835 or 9315 bracelet. But, now, there seem to be 2-3 quality examples of each listed every day. How is it possible that these relatively rare & highly sought after items that used to appear in trickles are suddenly flooding the market? Well, 1 way is to play musical chairs with 2-3 unpopular or damaged bracelets to form a single popular 1. You take the end link from bracelet A & fit it onto bracelet B. Then you take the leaves from bracelet C & cobble them onto bracelet B. And, voila!, you have a 'new' & valuable example of a franken-let. Now, this can be a good thing if the seller is up-front with the bracelet's franken-history & prices the piece accordingly. But, to date, I have never seen a vintage Rolex bracelet so described. When a seller markets such a bracelet as being 'GENUINE VINTAGE RoIex', no doubt relying on the fact that each of the individual parts were probably genuine when he cobbled them together, someone is going to get taken to the cleaners - & I do not mean to pick up their freshly pressed, starched shirts. What makes this trend even more insidious is the way many Asian sellers cleverly hide their work by posting reasonably clear pictures of the item taken from angles that either obscure (in a believable way) or obfuscate their work. And since most buyers do not know the telltale signs of a franken, they get taken. Here is an example of 1 of the telltale signs of a reconstructed bracelet Note the scratched & deformed hinge that connects the end link to the 1st link in the bracelet. Under normal circumstances, there is no reason for this part of a bracelet to be damaged in this way. Unlike most modern bracelets, which have removable end links, this model (7835) has 'permanently' attached end links - the bracelet is made to fit a specific watch or watches. However, it is clear that this hinge has been opened. In this case, it was opened so the original end links could be replaced with a different pair from a different bracelet. Similar things are also routinely done with the leaves of the clasp (the leaves are the 2 flat, hinged portions that usually contain the stamped Rolex insignia, date & model designation). But, in this case, a parts swap requires the seller only to press out a pin, swap the parts & press the pin back in. If done well, no one is the wiser. However, often, the seller does not have the proper tool or know how & resorts to unbending the hinge to free the pin that way, which leaves the hinge looking similar to the end link hinge above. So be very wary when purchasing a used Rolex bracelet, especially from an Asian seller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Great point to keep reminding everyone of what is out there. If I was building a Franken, I would only source the case from one of the dealers in aftermarket cases. Movement and the rest I would source somewhere eles. Genuine movements from the various dealers are junk and basterdized to the extent that they are not usable or very expensive to fix. Genuine movements should only be bought if they are inside a watch, too risky to buy loose ones. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shundi Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Thanks for the info guys....with the price of Rolex movements creeping higher and higher, it'd be an expensive error to purchase a loose movement with bastardized parts... I recall seeing some The Zigmeister examples that are just horrifying in terms of the extent of the damage and, it goes without saying, the cost in time and money to get one of these movements into some sort of working condition... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flex Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 freddy, is taht bracelet from the indian seller on Ioffer (recommended by somebody here)? (i had a transaction with him and would stay away) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Genuine movements should only be bought if they are inside a watch, too risky to buy loose ones. Yes, but I have also been seeing another trend, that of sellers dismantling rare, working vintage watches (the 6542 comes to mind here) just to part out the individual components of the watch for profit (another oddity of the vintage Rolex world is that, often, the individual parts of a vintage Rolex may be more valuable than the assembled watch). In these cases, where the parts came from a working watch, the starting price is almost always very high because the seller knows they were in working condition. But when you see a 1570 or 3135 movement being auctioned with a very low (or no) starting bid, then, as Ziggy said, you are probably buying yourself into trouble regardless of the hyperbole used by the seller. As great a resource as he is for aftermarket parts, would you really want to buy a (loose/unpackaged) 'genuine' Rolex component like a movement or bracelet from someone (in Asia) like Phong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southcoast68 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I recall buying an Air King years ago at a watch collectors convention, a watch that was claimed to be just "serviced". Shortly after, the crystal began to fog up and collect moisture inside the case. I sent it to the local Rolex AD, and about $800 later, I had a beautiful, like new Air King. Seems that not only was it not "serviced", but whoever "put" that watch together used a old flogged out movement with parts put together to make a running watch (I still have all the old parts in a baggie). So even if the movement is in a running watch, it may not mean much. Always try and source your parts through known responsible dealers, ones that can back up the transaction if something goes awry. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 freddy, is taht bracelet from the indian seller on Ioffer (recommended by somebody here)? (i had a transaction with him and would stay away) I think I know who you are talking about, but, no, the bracelet in the picture is from a seller in Hong Kong. Like the saying goes - Always buy the seller before you buy the watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 They say you learn something new everyday, and, I learned something new reading that I didn't know that the hinged parts of a clasp were called leaves Thanks for the info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I recall buying an Air King years ago at a watch collectors convention, a watch that was claimed to be just "serviced". Shortly after, the crystal began to fog up and collect moisture inside the case. I sent it to the local Rolex AD, and about $800 later, I had a beautiful, like new Air King. Seems that not only was it not "serviced", but whoever "put" that watch together used a old flogged out movement with parts put together to make a running watch (I still have all the old parts in a baggie). So even if the movement is in a running watch, it may not mean much. Always try and source your parts through known responsible dealers, ones that can back up the transaction if something goes awry. Cheers Good point. From my experience those movements out of a case are being handled by someone who probably doesn't know what he's doing, and/or were removed because they were damaged to start with. Overall if it's in a cased up watch, the odds are good that it should be complete and hopefully not damaged. But there are no guarantees of anything are there... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieUK Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) thank you freddy for this information. Dishonest sellers have been around and will continue to require true enthusiasts much more time and research to thawrt the efforts of the scammers. I am still upset seeing a bazillion rolex sub anchors on ebay, knowing that they are all fake, and the sellers were getting over $20 for each of them! Gosh they are making a killing! Edited January 16, 2009 by CharlieUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 This happens with vintage crystals too. I've had discussions with other members here that know for a fact that some of the "vintage" Superdome 39s on Ebay are nothing more than old GS crystals in a used Rolex paper envelope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 found this too late, a few weeks back i bought a 7835 with 357 ends, got the wrong ends too, needed something else, guess this is going to sit around in my parts box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flex Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 This happens with vintage crystals too. I've had discussions with other members here that know for a fact that some of the "vintage" Superdome 39s on Ebay are nothing more than old GS crystals in a used Rolex paper envelope. same for T21... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 same for T21... i must be on a roll, i paid 20 for one from sheartime, and another for 3.25 shipped from another seller. i think the t21 from sheartime is real hopefully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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