Cats Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 OK guys I'm lost. I know there was a discussion in Dec. 2007 on this subject but i can't find the right answer in that post. I bought a MBW during summer last year which had some quality issues. Everything was solved perfectly and I received a new MBW 1680 RED in November 2008 if I recollect it well. That one stayed in my watch box most of the time until my modder had the time to do all the modding . The watch was send to him the beginning of this year. I never opened the case back because there was no need for it. I did noticed that the bezel was very tight but then again it was something the modder would fix ( I thought ). My modder mailed me with some findings and remarks. First of all the bezel washer is of some kind of spring material which he has never seen on a MBW A gen insert keeps popping out and needs to be glued in. The lugholes are bigger drilled then in the MBW cases he has ever seen ( i can remember that my 2mm gen spring bars fitted in them ) The material seems to be softer , he did notice this when working on the case , compared to MBW he owns and has worked on in the past. A movement spacer ring was missing and it has a copied ETA inside ( have to be honest the dealer never claimed that he sells it with a gen ETA ) The lug engraving says 1680 and serial no L342295 The only picture i have of the engraving is this one. I've ask him to send my some new ones of the engraving. My question to all the experts out here are: Is this a MBW bezel construction ?? Does anybody own a MBW with a 1680 and L342295 engraving ?? Which engravings has the Cartel copy of the MBW 1680 ?? Thanks in advance Cats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southcoast68 Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 In your search for information, did you come across this thread; http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=107 Ubi shows some nice photos of his MBW/MBK 1680. Maybe there have been some things that have changed over the years, but the engraving on a MBW/MBK 1680 actually says 5513 since this was the model they started out with and just made revisions to it for the 1680, I believe the inside caseback also said 5513. From what I can make out from the pictures, yours looks like the right bezel construction. Most other Sub reps use a wavy wire spring to hold the bezel on, your has a flat washer/spring. Maybe its just a case of that particular washer/flat spring being just a bit too small on the inside diameter making it flare when on the crystal, thereby popping the bezel insert off. As far as the softer steel and the bigger lug holes, I have no answer for that. What say the other Rolliphiles in the house?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 My Watchmaster 1680 says 5513 and has an L serial# like yours- maybe the same, I'll check tonite. The lugholes don't look bad, IMO. Mine are smaller and still need to be drilled out. The pic you show of the movement has a spacer ring in it- same color as the movement- gold. As for the copy movement- we all just have to accept it- Swiss eta's are becoming scarce- if you bought a 2846-2 from Jules Borel, it would run over $100, I believe and it still might need to be serviced sooner than later possibly. I don't know about the bezel assembly- I glued in a gen insert 2 years ago and I don't want to mess with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifly65 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 My Watchmaster 1680 says 5513 and has an L serial# like yours- maybe the same, I'll check tonite. The lugholes don't look bad, IMO. Mine are smaller and still need to be drilled out. I think what Cats is saying is that his does NOT say 5513, but instead says 1680. Does anyone know if MBW ever used 1680 instead of 5513 for its reference number? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 More importantly than 1680 or 5513 is does it say "ORIG POLEX DESIGN" above the model #? That's a major key to an MBW. BTW, the SN on my WM is L341068. Those 'L' serials sure do suck! Anything above 5 million on a red 1680 is way too bogus for me, but what can you do? My bezel assembly is like the one shown by Ubi in the post referenced by Southcoast68. Whether or not MBW has changed the construction of the bezel assembly, I don't know. The case itself seems to have the correct lines and look. Who did the sub come from? That would also help if we knew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Thank you all. The retaining ring on my MBW is much higher then the one in Ubi's post I will post some pictures the lug engraving tonight or tomorrow depending on the when i get then from my modder. By the way this weekend my MBW will laying next to a 100% gen MBW 1680. I hope a lot of thing get clearer then Doesn't anybody own a copied MBW form the Cartel ?? @ alligoat i first want to be 100% if it is a MBW or not before i start mentioning names. What if it turns out to be a "newer" MBW and people misunderstand the hole situation and come to the conclusion that collector XXX is unreliable. Best regards, Cats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I'm only aware of three people selling MBW's, TTK, Paso, and Chris @ Eurotimez. Of course, you can go to the MBK Mall in Bangkok also and buy. But I'm not up on the new dealers and I wouldn't buy an MBW from the cartel since I already have one! The more I think about your bezel assembly, the more I realize it isn't right. Right in that it doesn't conform to the correct assembly and that's what MBW's were noted for- you could install a T-127 and gen insert and be good to go. The acid test would be if you could source a correct tension ring and flat washer and have it all fit with the crystal, bezel and insert. I hate to think that MBW would bastardize the 1680 assembly, so I'm kinda thinking it's a knock-off. But you never know what the rep makers will do. Wholesaleoutlet990 might sell them (tension ring and washer) on ebay, but you never know if his parts will work. Clark's Watch Supply would be another place to look possibly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmg Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Cats, this may be the MBW copy (it still cracks me up a re pf a rep ). I believe they were the only model that had the 1680 markings on it. The bezel contruction looks correct. Sounds like you'll have to glue the insert in place, the tolerances vary on the MBW bezels. My 1665 bezel takes an insert nice and tight while my 5513 does not and has to be glued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Thank you alligoat and toomuchgear. We already ordered (the modder did ) a new bezel washer from Clark's. Regarding the retention ring issue we might be able to solve it otherwise we have to buy a new one. This project is getting expensive 350 dollars for a "MBW" 130 for a new movement , 20 dollars for a bezel washer , xxx for a retention ring. The Clark crystal doesn't fit so i have to source a gen crystal because of the poor date mag on this one. Funny thing is that the first MBW i got from the collector had the 5513 engraving. He even told me in a PM that the true MBW only uses the 5513 engravings. That one had the problem of the rotor hitting on one of the case clamb screws causing it not to auto wind. So after a few months a got a brand new one with "1680" Again with the help of you experts out here and the comparison with a 100% gen MBW next Sunday the mistery will be solved. Carpe Diem Cats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tribal Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Mmhh, maybe a MBW Fake........... Angus sold the them a while back.... Never seen a 1680 engraving on a MBW 1680 Also the Bezelwasher looks weird... Are the Lugholes look from Factory on yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southcoast68 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I'm only aware of three people selling MBW's, TTK, Paso, and Chris @ Eurotimez. Of course, you can go to the MBK Mall in Bangkok also and buy. But I'm not up on the new dealers and I wouldn't buy an MBW from the cartel since I already have one! The more I think about your bezel assembly, the more I realize it isn't right. Right in that it doesn't conform to the correct assembly and that's what MBW's were noted for- you could install a T-127 and gen insert and be good to go. The acid test would be if you could source a correct tension ring and flat washer and have it all fit with the crystal, bezel and insert. I hate to think that MBW would bastardize the 1680 assembly, so I'm kinda thinking it's a knock-off. But you never know what the rep makers will do. Wholesaleoutlet990 might sell them (tension ring and washer) on ebay, but you never know if his parts will work. Clark's Watch Supply would be another place to look possibly. Pamfried over at RWI also sources MBW/MBK products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Maybe you could sand down the top of the tension ring- kinda like I did on my Euromariner. I'm surprised the Clark's crystal doesn't fit but I've heard of others having trouble fitting T-127's, period, so that's not unheard of. MBW quality does vary. I made out OK with my Euromariner, but I wasn't that impressed with it- certainly not the dealers fault- they come that way from the factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Tribal the Lugholes came like this from the factory. Carpe Diem Cats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 As promised the clearer pictures of the engraving 1680 Serial Carpe Diem Cats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Orig Polex Design- just like an MBW, but heck, the Chinese will copy anything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmg Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Orig Polex Design- just like an MBW, but heck, the Chinese will copy anything! So true Alligoat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Let's hope it aint Carpe Diem Cats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Orig Polex Design- just like an MBW, but heck, the Chinese will copy anything! Oh my god, don't tell me they copied the MBW and fixed the engraving when they are not able to fix other "visible" flaws on the dial ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Very interesting. I've never seen an MBW 1680 with the lugs engraved with the appropriate ref. It's always been 5513 that I've seen. However, everything else looks correct, even down to the actual engraving between the lugs (I could be wrong, but I believe the copies of the MBW had the lug refs and s/n lasered instead). Perhaps there is a new generation or run of MBW's. I do recall seeing some variations coming with the correct sized lug holes drilled. Perhaps they changed the ref between the lugs as well? The lugs, CG's, crown, lug hole placement, caseback shape, crystal, dial, movement ring, bezel construction, bezel and insert all look correct very MBW characterisitc. I don't recall if the back of my case has those machined grooves or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 The more I look at it, the only thing I don't like is the bezel washer- it needs to be flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southcoast68 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 I still think that the washers' inside diameter is a hair too small, making the washer "flex" when it is installed over the crystal. If a small (and I mean small) amount of material could be removed from the inside diameter, I bet it would sit flat and still be able to retain the bezel assembly properly. Ahhh, rep modding, gotta love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 @southcoast68 I already did some sanding to make the inner diametre bigger so it doesn't get stuck at the retention ring. The guy who is modding my MBW , and a lot of MBW's past through his hands , told me that he has never seen such a bezel washer on a MBW. Next sunday this case will be compared with a gen MBW and then we will know. Carpe Diem Cats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 I agree with what Southcoast said. And since you already ordered another flat washer, you should hopefully be able to get squared away from there. Worse case scenario would be having to sand down the top of the tension ring, maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Posted January 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 @ alligoat & southcoast. Indeed i did order 2 flat washer from Clarks which were delivered yesterday. If it's needed we will sand down the retention ring. I feel 100% confident that i will have one of the most beautifull modded 1680 RED when it's finest. I've seen some pictures of the modifcations on the crown guards and the rest of the case and they look GREAT. The only thing which might be a problem is that if you order a MBW you want a MBW. Next week we will know if i paid way too much for this watch. Carpe Diem Cats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southcoast68 Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 @ alligoat & southcoast. Indeed i did order 2 flat washer from Clarks which were delivered yesterday. If it's needed we will sand down the retention ring. I feel 100% confident that i will have one of the most beautifull modded 1680 RED when it's finest. I've seen some pictures of the modifcations on the crown guards and the rest of the case and they look GREAT. The only thing which might be a problem is that if you order a MBW you want a MBW. Next week we will know if i paid way too much for this watch. Carpe Diem Cats I hear 'ya, don't worry , it will be great when its done. From what we all have seen so far, it looks to have the same construction as the MBW/MBK and most likely comes from the same source. There have probably been some updates lately especially as new rep products are introduced. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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