RWG Technical Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 In the shop for full restoration, this is the first part of the work I carried out. First impression is fine, looks simply in need of some TLC... Engraving looks good to my eyes... So far so good, nothing unusual, lets take her down and see what's inside... OH-OH, something doesn't look right...do you see the problem?? Dial is quite damaged and stained...maybe from water? Looks genuine though... Seems as if someone simply added a GMT gear to the non-GMT 1570 to turn this into a sort-of GMT. Obviously the GMT hand is not adjustable, it just stays fixed and moves around the dial with the time. The other "weird" thing I found that I have never seen before, if you look at the picture below, note the numbers "237" on the movement, strangly enough the case is also marked with hand etched "237", as if there was a need to number these parts so they wouldn't get mixed up?? Why would anyone number these parts...especially when this isn't even the correct movement for this model... I think I know what happened to the original movement, this may be a clue...needs a new stem and crown, this one doesn't have much life left in it... Even more odd was the rust I found on the great wheel pinion of the 1570, it's sort of hard to see, here are a couple of shots...how come this pinion is rusted and nothing else is? Movement was completely dry and in dire need of servicing,and other than the rust on the great wheel, the rest of the movement was fine. The other weird thing I noted was that after I finished the servicing and installed the hands, as I removed the watch from under my desk lamp, the GMT hand stood out like a sore thumb...it's Super Lumed, where as the rest of the hands are Tritium... So we have a dial, movement, case, caseback, bracelet and hands, some of which are genuine, some aren't, some are old, some are new, overall it's very odd to say the least... Wonder what the story is on this one...your thoughts? More to come as I finish the restoration. Thanks for looking, RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSlayer Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 A very interesting watch indeed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tribal Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Yepp,maybe someone mixed the parts of the movement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Case looks good, bezel looks good, crown looks good. I'm not sure about the dial but then I'm not an expert of this model. Where is our Austrian friend... he'd tell you for sure. I guess it's safe to say that the bracelet isn't original... never seen a ExpII with Submariner clasp. As far as I know, the GMT (or hour) hands on these old 1570 and 1575 aren't adjustable at all... at least it's not adjustable in my dad's 1675. But then again how can you use it as a 2nd timezone watch when the bezel doesn't rotate, huh? Edit: Here's a good comparison shot of the dial. Hmm... it might be all legit. The seconds hand is blocking the coronet, but the McQueen's have very special style coronets, and it looks good on your watch. Also the "X" in ROLEX is kinda special. There have been variations of course, in typical Rolex fashion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demsey Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) Some history of the watch would tell a lot....................was this piece sourced off of a public internet auction? That may reveal why this watch is such a 'mutt'.............but is all lost? Athought the 1570 is chiefly associated with; ref. 1975 Exporer (no date/no GMT), Dea Dwellers, Subs, circa 1975- 89 Was not the movement in the 1675 GMT Master as well ? Could this watch ultimately be 'put together by all the King's Horses and all the Kings Men' to once again be 'Humpty Dumpty' RG? <edit> As far as I know, the GMT (or hour) hands on these old 1570 and 1575 aren't adjustable at all... at least it's not adjustable in my dad's 1675. But then again how can you use it as a 2nd timezone watch when the bezel doesn't rotate, huh? Yes, I forgot this how the 1675 operates with regard to Zulu.........................Hmmmmmmm, someone has been stung.......................I wonder what this watch cost it's owner? Bright side; 1570 SWEET! 1655 Case, dial, crystal, bracelet SWEET! Spend a few more grand and you'd have a great jump on a vintage Rolex sports collection.......................... Edited February 4, 2009 by Demsey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Athought the 1570 is chiefly associated with; ref. 1975 Exporer (no date/no GMT), Dea Dwellers, Subs, circa 1975- 89 Was not the movement in the 1675 GMT Master as well ? I'm not sure Dems... could be... I\'m VERY bad with numbers. I don't even remember my own cell phone number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltatahoe Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 wow -- looking forward to seeing this tale unravel. i'm assuming the owner of this watch is a board member? here's to hoping the owner didn't drop $15+k on this one thinking it was all original deltatahoe EDIT to add: unless i'm mistaken, early vintage 1675 GMTs (at least for a while) used a 1575 movement (with a non-adjustable GMT hand -- you rotate the bezel instead) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I have also done some reading and it appears that the older models DIDN'T have adjustable hands...which is really weird since it seems to defeat the purpose of a fixed 24-hour bezel. So the movement may be correct, but I think it should be stamped "1575" instead of "1570". Don't know a lot of the history, I believe that this is a heirloom or piece that the owner has had for many years... EDIT, not a member of this board... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 This is a confusing one. The seconds hand has the shorter dot position proper for the later 1970's 1655's (as opposed to the long position for those in the 80's)...BUT, the dial is marked "T Swiss T" and not " T Swiss <25 T" which is closer to a 1970/71 1655...which from what I understand, had straight seconds hands with no lume dot. My guess is, damage happened to the GMT gears somewhere and likely to all the hands...which is why the GMT hand is replaced with something possibly aftermarket, and the seconds hand with a mis-matched 1655 handset not quite in line with the dial. The crown guards look wider which to me looks closer to the early 70's...but the bezel font looks to be from the late 70's (namely the shape of the #1 serif). I'm assuming the case is thicker (14mm)...closer to a SeaDweller than thin like a Sub? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 So the movement may be correct, but I think it should be stamped "1575" instead of "1570". Ziggy, I just found this about the movements: "The 1570 and the 1575 are the same movements. The addition of a "5" indicates a date feature. The fact that some 1675s have 1570 stamped on the bridge is simply Rolex used what ever was on hand at the the time." http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?p=498628 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demsey Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 ...which is really weird since it seems to defeat the purpose of a fixed 24-hour bezel. So the movement may be correct, but I think it should be stamped "1575" instead of "1570". Yeah, that's the rub.................. I think the movement is correct for "A" GMT watch but not "This" GMT watch.................or any other with fixed bezel...............this may come down to 'forensics'...................and gross speculation unless the owner can shed some light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Either way...I still want it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasGirgenti Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 In the shop for full restoration, this is the first part of the work I carried out. Thanks for looking, RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 As B-T pointed out, a 1575 movement will be marked on the bridge 1570. In fact, I can't recall ever seeing one marked 1575. Another one of Rolexes little quirks. Ziggy, look at the SN on the case: 2mil 1967-70 3mil 1970-73, 4mil 1974-76 5mil 1977-79 All dates are approximate, of course. The 1570, 1575, and 1575GMT all came out around 1965. Prior to that the 1560(5,GMT) would have been used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
involt Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I have also done some reading and it appears that the older models DIDN'T have adjustable hands...which is really weird since it seems to defeat the purpose of a fixed 24-hour bezel. I read somewhere that indicating the AM/PM was the original purpose of the 24h hand of the Explorer II; the watch was meant for speleologists that could lose the notion of time, so they couldn't tell if it was morning or evening. To such an intent, a non-adjustable hand makes sense. It isn't a GMT hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabus Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I'm the original owner of a vintage 1675 that only RSC have ever touched, with a non-adjustable GMT hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I read somewhere that indicating the AM/PM was the original purpose of the 24h hand of the Explorer II; the watch was meant for speleologists that could lose the notion of time, so they couldn't tell if it was morning or evening. To such an intent, a non-adjustable hand makes sense. It isn't a GMT hand Speleologists, huh? Yeah, gotta love all those pretentious "purposes" that Rolex marketing department has always invented for these watches. Still... pure Genius I say. Pretentious or not, the whole "tool watch" idea make these vintage Rolexes fascinating. And yeah, I've read the same story. So in that sense the modern Explorer II with 3185 movement has moved away from its "roots". It's a full 2-zone GMT. In principle you can use the modern GMT Master II for 3 timezones because of rotating bezel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Speleologists, huh? Yeah, gotta love all those pretentious "purposes" that Rolex marketing department has always invented for these watches. Still... pure Genius I say. Pretentious or not, the whole "tool watch" idea make these vintage Rolexes fascinating. The old ads say this...stating the orange hand was just to tell you whether or not it was daytime or night time when you don't have a sun or moon in site to act as a reference....hence the 24hr fixed bezel. Hey...when I'm down in my deep dark cave for days on end...I always lose track of night time or daytime...I need one of these BADLY!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 The old ads say this...stating the orange hand was just to tell you whether or not it was daytime or night time when you don't have a sun or moon in site to act as a reference....hence the 24hr fixed bezel. Hey...when I'm down in my deep dark cave for days on end...I always lose track of night time or daytime...I need one of these BADLY!!! Exactly my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRae Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Hey...when I'm down in my deep dark cave for days on end...I always lose track of night time or daytime...I need one of these BADLY!!! Are you... ...Batman?! (said with a small, quivering voice) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJo35 Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Interesting piece there, RG! Almost looks as bad as some of the unfortunate pieces I picked up and sent your way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Exactly my point. I gotcha!! I should post a scan of some of the old ads...pretty funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 The 1570 (1575 adds the date feature, but the bridge is still signed '1570') is correct, but I do not believe the second hand is correct. At least, it is not correct for a 1st or 2nd gen version dial, as this is. After I missed this a few months ago, I went back & did a bit more research on the 1655. The 1st & 2nd versions of the 1655 had the squatishly odd looking coronet on the dial, but these early versions also had a second hand without a luminous dot. The luminous dot on the second hand was added for the 3rd version, which had a slightly different dial with a taller, more normal-looking coronet Here is a 1st gen 1655 (note the lack of luminous dot on the second hand & the froggish coronet) Here is a 3rd gen 1655 (note that this watch has a second hand with a luminous dot & the coronet is taller) Even more odd was the rust I found on the great wheel pinion of the 1570, it's sort of hard to see, here are a couple of shots...how come this pinion is rusted and nothing else is? Wonder what the story is on this one...your thoughts? The wheel with the rusted leaves may be a pre-owned replacement part that the previous 'watchmaker' failed to recondition prior to installation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demsey Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 I read somewhere that indicating the AM/PM was the original purpose of the 24h hand of the Explorer II; the watch was meant for speleologists that could lose the notion of time, so they couldn't tell if it was morning or evening. To such an intent, a non-adjustable hand makes sense. It isn't a GMT hand lol, that's a stretch.....................maybe Bob could use this feature when an avalanche traps him in an ice cave when Redoubt blows; OK men, time to weigh our assets and liabilities; Assets; Plenty of H2O and I'm wearing a Rolex ref. 1655. Liabilities; No bars on the cell phone, emergency services will be busy with the ash fall and utilities, we won't even be listed as 'missing' until morning, which, according to my orange hand, will be in exactly..................17 hours. Cool! God Bless you Hans Wilsdorf.............. But seriously, this is exactly why I need a Speedmaster Moon gen. I'm afraid of breaking the sapphire crystal in my space capsule and having the shards clog the CO2 rebreather. Hesalite is the only way to go. Thank goodness Rolex and Omega are watching out for us..................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 lol, that's a stretch.....................maybe Bob could use this feature when an avalanche traps him in an ice cave when Redoubt blows; OK men, time to weigh our assets and liabilities; Assets; Plenty of H2O and I'm wearing a Rolex ref. 1655. Liabilities; No bars on the cell phone, emergency services will be busy with the ash fall and utilities, we won't even be listed as 'missing' until morning, which, according to my orange hand, will be in exactly..................17 hours. Cool! God Bless you Hans Wilsdorf.............. But seriously, this is exactly why I need a Speedmaster Moon gen. I'm afraid of breaking the sapphire crystal in my space capsule and having the shards clog the CO2 rebreather. Hesalite is the only way to go. Thank goodness Rolex and Omega are watching out for us..................... And not to mention all those important features on a Navitimer. No 747 pilot can land his plane safely without constantly checking things from his bezel slide rule. And we all use the tachymeter on our chronographs of course... very important feature, although checking the tachymeter and simultaneously driving a car 300 km/h is pretty challenging. Wonder if Raikkonen, Schumacher and Hamilton all wear their Rolex Daytonas during the F1 races... All these are pretentious features and common sense doesn't have anything to do with our watch obsession. But then again world can't be that serious. It's nice to be a kid forever and enjoy our nice, mindless toys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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