addingwatch Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Rep quality has definitely improved by far over the years, but in the persuit of ever better PAM reps from China, I think we have lost our way. The Panerai fad lasted for a few years through good economic times, but it is over. Real Panerai prices have cratered in the three months and will continue to drop. There is only one brand that has survived the test of time and continues to grow (and increase in value). The best - most valuable brand and watch in the world is Patek Philippe SA. Nothing else compares... Also, the best quality reps in the world are Patek. The movements are better. The dials are better. Real 18K gold cases. Take a look below. It is a rep. Comments from any PAM people? Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guinea Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I have a gen PAM and my ultimate watch is one of PP grand complications. I'll get one someday. I like both immensely. I would however take issue with the fact that PP have the best reps. I've seen none worth of the brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addingwatch Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 What about the one I showed above? What PAM rep compares to it? Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 If that is a rep movement I'll eat my PAM box Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pre V Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) Your Patek Rep looks to be quite well-made, asthetically. As for comparisons, I reckon there are few done before....side-by-side with Genuines... To compare Patek with Panerai is like Apples to Oranges.... Modern Panerais have dipped quite a bit, but Vintage Panerais still maintain their value. Same goes for Patek, modern pieces have dropped in prices....Patek SA has for the 1st time decrease their price to counter their decreasing sales figures. Panerai on the other hand, has not resorted to such means. So what gives? It is ultimately the perception of the collectors who percieve what real value lies beneath that case. Interests differ and forever it will be, to speak on behalf of the market, is like shopping for the best Tuna in the fish market. Yellow fin, Blue fin, Black fin....choices will always be omnipresent. A Panerai fan may be a Patek one too, and vice versa.... Realistically, the market and the direction of the watch companies speak for their value, whatever they may be... Edited March 9, 2009 by Pre V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppen Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Also, the best quality reps in the world are Patek. The movements are better. The dials are better. Real 18K gold cases. No, you're well wide of the mark there, +1 what dluddy said, that aint no rep movement and if you say you can source them, I'd be very suspicious to be perfectly honest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 na that aint a rep movement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shundi Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 That's not a "rep" movement... It may not be an actual Patek movement...but it's not a rep movement. Also- PAM's use a ETA base movement (most of them) and have relatively simple dials/cases/etc (in comparison to PP). It's been said before and I'll say it again: The issue you're going to run into with PP and VC is the fact that 1. Anyone who really "knows" the brand will call you out instantly due to the the high degree of finish and execution in the gen Patek and 2. Patek and VC don't use standard ETA movements so choices are somewhat limited (Seagull ST19, A21J, etc) neither of which are even remotely close to looking like or truly functioning like the gen (RobbieG did an excellent review of handwind column wheel movements and expounded upon some of the errors vis a vis reps including the subdial spacing on the Venus copies vs Lemania bases, etc.) VC and PP are also rolling out countermeasures to protect against counterfeiters and their best weapon is an exhibition caseback. In short- the only PP rep that's ever been remotely "close" to a gen (in relative terms) is the Nautilus/Aquanaut series. And that's the "cheap" Patek. Even the simple Calatrava is finished so minutely and perfectly that a CNC'd Asian case could never hope to compare. Don't believe me? Use a loupe or go to an AD and handle one yourself... the finish is spellbinding. More convincing PP reps WILL be made but certain movement and QC barriers must be overcome before that can happen. If they can't print the font on PAM dials correctly or make a CG properly, how do you expect them to match the detail of a 100K watch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corgi Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Patek Philippe is my favorite brand by far. MBK have given us two great reps so far: the Nautilus and the exquisite Aquanaut which is extremely accurate. I will buy a gen some day. Until then I can only hope the rep manufacturers will try and broaden their horizon, perhaps releasing more accurate and more reliable models like the Calatrava, Gondolo, or Ellipse. PS; the watch you showed is of a genuine vintage Patek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 The movement is certainly not a rep movement. All Patek handwound chronographs have used the Lemania 2310 as a base ebauche since 1986. It is generally regarded as the finest handwound chronograph movement in the world. The exact bridge shapes and decoration choices have changed over the years, but the movement is unmistakable. That said, if your so called rep is in fact a rep that has transplanted a 2310, I suppose I can buy that. Hard to understand how that would work money wise though. Currently, a Patek 5070 Chrono with this movement sells for 20+ over its list price in the mid forty thousand dollar range duw to supply limitations. That someone would just find a genuine Patek 27-70 (Lemania 2310) laying around and then stick it in a replica is VERY hard to believe. Again, the movement shown above is not a replica 2310. Moreover, there is no possible way to source the ebauches - not even one of them. They are not sold to anyone except front line supply to a handful of high end compaies. Even that is potentially changing due to Breguet/Swatch. And due to economies of scale, there is simply no way that any factory could possibly make tooling up and building a gen quality 2310 work money-wise. Any Patek rep of an annual calendar as you are showing in the real world will have a Seagull ST19 Venus 175 clone and will not have any working complications in the movement. I also find it interesting that the caseback pic and the other are from two different photo sessions. In other words, someone may be trying to scam you by showing you pictures not of the actual supposed replica watch. Here is another pic of a Patek 27-70, which is based on a Lemania 2310 ebauche: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shundi Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I should reiterate...and I think RobbieG and I are getting to the same point: That's is a Patek movement or maybe even (I HIGHLY, HIGHLY doubt it) a modified lemania of some sort independent of PP (worst case/weirdest scenario) but it is NOT a Chinese produced rep movement. I found the following image of a 1940's PP chrono...when I initally looked at your pic I thought it was a "dressed up" lower end Lemania but now I see it's just a poorly serviced (or non serviced-missing jewels, dirty, etc) PP movement. See ref below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Yeah, no doubt. The sinks too. Chatons are absent, etc. Certainly a 2310 for sure though. The base finish was never all that great or offered as such as Lemania always knew its customers would be doing thier own and most complete finishing. I suppose it could be a one off where someone scored a 2310 out of something and rep stamped the PP stuff on it. But the one givaway that suggests it may be less than genuine might be the Hallmark of Geneva seal. Certainly not meeting some of the technical requirements, hence the suspect seal as I mentioned. The 12 Geneva Hallmark technical requirements: 1. The good workmanship of all the parts of the caliber, including those of the additional mechanisms, must be in conformity with the requirements of the office of voluntary inspection of the watches from Geneva. Steel parts must have polished angles and their visible surfaces smoothed down. Screw heads must be polished, with their slots and rims chamfered. Jewelling 2. The entire movement must jeweled with ruby jewels set in polished holes, including the going train and escape wheel. On the bridge side, the jewels must be olive-drilled with polished sinks. The jewel of the center wheel on the main plate is not required. Regulating Systems 3. The hairspring should be pinned in a grooved plate with a stud having a rounded collar and cap. Mobile studs are permitted. 4. Split or fitted indexes are allowed with a holding system except in extra-thin calibers where the holding system is not required. 5. Regulating systems with balance with radius of variable gyration are allowed insofar as they meet the conditions of article 3, subparagraph 1. Wheels 6. The wheels of the going train must be chamfered above and below and have a polished sink. In wheels 0.15 mm thick or less, a single chamfer is allowed on the bridge side. 7. In wheel assemblies, the pivot shanks and the faces of the pinion leaves must be polished. Escapement 8. The escape wheel has to be light, not more than 0.16 mm thick in large calibers and 0.13 mm in calibers under 18 mm, and its locking-faces must be polished. 9. The angle traversed by the pallet lever is to be limited by fixed banking walls and not pins or studs. Shock Protection 10. Shock protected movements are accepted. Winding Mechanism 11. The ratchet and crown wheels must be finished in accordance with registered patterns. Springs 12. Wire springs are not allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addingwatch Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Gentlemen - It is a Val 23 based movement modified to the exact Patek standards. I have three of them (and no, they don't come from China). Don't you see, this is the point. Far better quality. All of the old masters have been forgotten. Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 The point? The point is it is a bastard, one off watch then that has no real basis of discussion since no dealer or source any of us pikers here on the board know of or have access to. I guess your intent then was to illustrate that one off, unavailable watches like the ones you have are better than the PAM's everyone else has? Or do you intend to reveal your source and have him apply to be a trusted dealer then? Surely this all must have a point that we all can benefit from as a group? I'll be in the other room... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shundi Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Gentlemen - It is a Val 23 based movement modified to the exact Patek standards. I have three of them (and no, they don't come from China). Don't you see, this is the point. Far better quality. All of the old masters have been forgotten. Regards. Exact Patek standards?... missing jewels, dirty, spotty finishing, crappy G. Hallmark... and FYI Hont (I think) already does this with Val23's etc in "vintage" Rolexes...such frankens have been around for quite some time... You could make your own "one off" movement and have it be "greater" than anything mass produced in China but that's really not the point...as RobbieG said, dealers aren't going to have this so it's a novelty more than a potential break in the PP rep market... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addingwatch Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 The point was not to insult PAM's. I own 6 of them (including 2 VDB specials). The point is to discuss Patek reps. I totally agree that there are no good china based Patek reps. Also, the movement has been serviced since the pic. Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shundi Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Now that you've piqued my curiosity...details on the watch/mvt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Well quit fu$@ing with us then and get to the point then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff g Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Actually its all good anymore. But like others on this thread I have to agree that my favorite watches are the MBK PPN and Aquanaut. Pams are a look. Beautiful watches. Patek Phillipe watches are the essence of timeless design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Back from the other room. ...And then he disappears without heeding dluddy's plea. We may never know how to get the super "V23 made to look like a 2310 solid gold PP reps" that are better than anything else mere mortals have access to. Come back, come back, and tell us at least how we can get V23's for the price of a rep. Shundo and I have projects we could use them in... PS: Just so you know, I'm not f'ing with you. Well kind of, but not really...I will buy a current 5070 rep tomorrow and transplant this movement if it will fit. I won't be needing the 18k case either. I concede that your V23 franken looks better than any handwoung column wheel movement we have seen in any past reps. You are our lifeline to revive the dress chrono arm of the brand here on the boards. We wait with baited breath... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 @ Robbie Wasn't intended at you it was more intended to ask what the OP was really driving at with the comment that the best quality reps in the world are Patek? The statement alone is false but to then tease with a shot of a Franken was misleading IMO.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chad Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 ""Also, the best quality reps in the world are Patek. The movements are better. The dials are better. Real 18K gold cases."" uh....no.... The movements in standard factory made patek reps are trash. The movement in a frankenwatch is as good as he or she would like it to be depending on availability, compatibility and cost. You mentioned VDB. I would say that the Rolex mvt in some of his watches is better than the mvt you showed for the patek. I guess that would make vintage panerai the best reps in the entire world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneMan24 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 The point was not to insult PAM's. Of course not, your point was to insult those of us that LIKE PAMs. We are such fad bandwagoners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 @ Robbie Wasn't intended at you it was more intended to ask what the OP was really driving at with the comment that the best quality reps in the world are Patek? The statement alone is false but to then tease with a shot of a Franken was misleading IMO.... Oh no D, I knew what you meant. And I agree 110%. You meant what I did which was to say if these are available why set us up for a fall and tell us how these are superior to what we all have. Just questioning the point of him posting of he wasn't going to tell all. It comes off a little like "look what I have and you all don't" to me. I mean he has to know that these have never been offered for sale as his with any of our dealers. So I was just mirroring what you said (and what Shundi said) again to him. And I say it again. Reveal the source of whover sells Patek-esq V23's OP. I can't imagine they are in abundance, but think of the possibilities. I know d and Shundi and many others here would love to have a great movement as a base for some franken Patek's. Even the standard 5070 rep wouldn't be too bad with that movement as I said... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave123 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 The 'Pam fad' died in January 2008,the beginning of the 'Year of the Breitling',where have you been?. Patek who?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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