freddy333

The end links look to be 285s

Aside from the incorrect end links, I wish he had less suspicious (blurry, distant) pictures. That is the only thing (aside from the 0 seller history) that really bothers me about this. But, from what I can see, it looks like quite a find for someone. I wonder why he is selling it?

Ziggy -- Thank you for taking the time to take & post the new pics. These shed new light on the subject & only enforce what I thought already: Gen movement (impossible to tell whether the bridge & plate signings are original or were added by someone like Phong without having the watch appraised by Rolex, but I will be positive & assume the movement is 100% gen), NDtrading dial & aftermarket case/caseback (lug scratches aside (scratches can be added in a matter of minutes), the engravings between the lugs look, to me, to be of recent vintage). Since a watch fitted with an aftermarket dial would be rejected outright by Rolex, why not do the next best thing - post a few of these pics of the watch on TZ & poll some of the experts there for their opinion. If Dowling & a few of the other senior experts give this watch the thumbs-up, that would be good enough for me. Ziggy, are you game?

A little mid-week change of pace

Not my favorite watch by any means, but I have to say that this is 1 of the most beautiful pictures I have seen here. The light & colors are brilliant. Well done, By-Tor. Very well done.

I see no difference between this 'new' Sub & last year's model. Am I missing something?

If it is gen (and in good condition), yes. Entire gen bracelets have been hovering around the $1,000 mark for the past few months & will likely continue higher.

I would never take a rep into any water, including showers or washing hands, until/unless it had been properly pressure tested. Alot of people do it without any problems, but there are also alot of posts that begin with something like 'My watch is supposed to be waterproof, but it filled with water when I showered'. Unless you can afford to replace it, I would play it safe & remove your watch whenever you are near moisture. Better safe than sorry.

I recently paid $250 for NOS 580s. I have not come across any gen 585s recently, but I would guess they would cost about the same since they are both similarly rare.

I agree that Bob can be cantankerous at times (I sometimes think he reads too many Dr. Bronner's castile soap bottles (if you know these & know Bob, you will know what I mean)), but if you are just placing an order by phone (and know your part numbers), you will probably never speak with him. There are several people in the office that can take parts orders & they are usually quite pleasurable to deal with. Ofrei is rarely the cheapest source for a part, but they usually ship (in stock items) out within 48 hours, so they are very quick. If you need a good quality crystal press or water pressure tester, I would shop around. But when it comes to incidentals like stems, tubes, tweezers, screwdrivers, screws & that sort of thing, Ofrei is usually my 1st (and last) stop.

A few rep watches contain working Helium valves which are correct in their construction, but there is no guarantee that they would work in execution. And no offense intended to Josh or any of our other esteemed collectors, but, as the previous members stated, I would not rely on anything a seller tells you regarding waterproofness or servicing. If you need a waterproof watch, you will need to pay for the services of a real watchmaker (or buy a water pressure tester (about $500+) & learn to repair watches yourself).

There are varying degrees of probability & I think this option ranks close to the bottom. But, yes, anything is possible.

Repaustria brings up another good point, which, for me, finalizes things. There are a number of genuine dial restorers like Universal Watch Repair in Michigan, which really do 'repaint' old watch dials They did my vintage Longines dial, which, to the naked eye, looks exactly like the original (sorry, but I forgot to take a before pic, but here it is minus 70+ years of stains & natural discoloration) Professional dial restorers produce work that contains no variations in font styles or sizes, no components that look weird or questionable, no dislocated numbers & no built-in inaccuracies that plague aftermarket dials like the 1 in Ziggy's watch. It just does not make sense that an owner of a rare & ultra expensive watch like a Milgauss would have fitted an obviously aftermarket dial to an otherwise genuine Rolex watch before consulting a professional dial restorer (and virtually every professional watchmaker & jeweler is well acquainted with dial restorers). On the other hand, it makes perfect sense for a modder to fit an aftermarket dial to an aftermarket case containing a gen movement taken from a relatively common Oyster Perpetual. Think about it.

I did.

The usual

You guys are going to ruin me.

I think Ofrei is the easiest supplier to purchase from (as long as you know what you need & can order from their online catalog), especially when you are just starting out. If you want to save yourself alot of time & grief, you might just order 1 of the TZ watch school level 1 kits, which are listed in the watch school section of TZ. For most small parts, I go with Ofrei. For more expensive or hard-to-find parts, I may try many sources (including ebay). julesborel.com, cas-ker.com & cousinsuk.com are also good sources of tools, parts & watchmaking supplies.

I agree. I think the 585s fit better.

Yes, almost anything is possible with vintage Rolex, but the possibilities end at aftermarket dials from NDtrading. Having an NDtrading dial in this watch eliminates any possibility of the watch being genuine. And it just stretches the bounds of credulousness to imagine someone owning a gen Milgauss movement & a genuine Milgauss case, but not having the gen Milgauss dial. I mean how could you possibly misplace your gen Milgauss dial? As for fitting gen movements into aftermarket cases, as long as you shave out a small circular section on the inside of the case to fit the movement's locking screw, the 1570 from my 1601 will fit into my MBW DRSD case quite nicely. More? How many of us have made poorly machined DW cases accept a V72 so well that it seems like the case was custom made for the movement, and we do it with simple hand tools (dremel, files, sandpaper). Where there is a modder with the will, there is always a way. And if you need any more reassurance that aftermarket cases can be made to fit gen movements, a quick visit to Phong's website (jewelryandwatch.com) should allay any remaining ambivalence you still have. This guy made a business out of turning generic gen movements into signed Rolex movements & fitting gen movements into aftermarket cases. He says he is even (and I am quoting directly from Phong's website) 'able to making new watch case by your specification 18kt yellow or white solid gold, or re-case for high grade vintage watches movement'. And all of Phong's watches have the same issues that Ziggy's watch has. What does that tell you?

For the 1st time in quite a while I have no reps, parts or tools en route to me & I feel forlorn. I have a number of projects in the pipeline, but I am not expecting the postman to deliver any new packages.

Yes, it is viewable there, but I thought the actual videos would be longer than just a couple minutes each. A 300+ meg torrent for 4 4 minute videos is a bit much.

Yes, torrent not working.

That looks right, but you can usually buy aftermarket springbars (of similar size) which are cheaper & much easier to find (ofrei, julesborel, cousinsuk, etc. all sell them).

The stock number engraved on the underside of gen Rolex end links is relatively small compared to what I have seen on every set of rep end links. But, to be honest, if you can find a pair of 580 rep links with the correct shape, I would get them. The gens are made from slightly heavier gauge metal & the edges have better finishing (nothing new there), but the differences are so small that, unless you are fitting them to a gen bracelet, I think it makes more sense to go with reps since they will be so much cheaper & no one can tell the difference from the outside.

I agree with Repaustria (still). Regardless of the fit of the Faraday cage or case, that ain't no gen Milgauss. No way, no how.