RobbieG

I was beginning to think this was one of my posts. I had, how do you say? - "Brew some coffee" to read it all. LOL. Lani is being long winded like me. I apologize to any who hate my post length - but I'm old school too and I don't want to risk leaving something out for fear of being misunderstood. Talk about the all time backfires, huh? Still controversial and I actually try not to be. It is like some kind of twisted Abbott & Costello episode or something... Seriously though, I just don't know how to condense thoughts and it is getting worse. I think it is my work. Everything is about complex relationships between events and we express each event by describing how it relates to other events simply put. In other words, there is never a simple answer or description of anything, where most other people are just going - "Yeah, yeah, we get all that..." But in my mind you make mistakes when you leave stuff out. Sorry Lani... Hey on a more serious note - and back to something important like Hawaii, the old Gold's closed huh? How about the old World's location in Waikiki? Still a gym there?

I didn't do it. I don't drive a Mercedes. But I do buy lunch a lot...

What a surprise. And meanwhile I was told by all the "experts" during previous discussions that the upcoming changes in ETA were only going to effect the Ebauche business and nothing else in the chain, including availability of rep movements and cost of replacement parts. At the time I was ridiculed for daring to say that I thought ETA would take advantage of the public perception of ETA's changes and how they would effect things - even if there was no real reason to. Now I found out both the parts prices have increased not once but multiple times, and dealers/factories are claiming supply crunches effecting movement availability and cost in China. Go figure... Yes, do get your watches serviced if they need it. Seems like that should go without saying. Although I have often wondered what would happen when parts and labor for repair and service eventually reach these types of crossroads. In the rep world, the complete watches are so inexpensive, maybe one will eventually justify just buying two complete reps of a watch that he likes and putting one away for future parts use. I mean, there are still ETA reps in the low $200 range - the DJ's come to mind there. Meanwhile, the movement and its parts in total with eventual labor meet or exceed the whole watch. I wonder when critical mass gets reached there. In my business we would call that an outlier or an inefficiency yet to be corrected. One of the certainties about mechanical watch movements is that the timelines between service are relatively long and one can never really anticipate what future service costs and/or parts availability will really be - even when we have become used to a giant like ETA doing exactly what we expect them do do year after year. Life is like a market - forever changing, unpredictable, and unlike experts, is always right. LOL. It will be interesting to see how the rest of the ETA saga as it relates to parts and the rep world will unfold. I still think the best move for the rep industry for the long run is to stop dependence on "Swiss" to sell reps. It is a bit like how we feel here in the US regrading dependence on foreign oil. Just bad business and we could operate much more efficiently to the contrary. But unlike our oil crisis, the sillyness of the ETA and how it fits into the rep world is the easiest fix in the world. A little marketing and a little show and tell aimed at showing the life of a typical rep can be just as faithfully and more efficiently served by "lesser" movements. Look at the success of the A7750. For purposes of most it is more than adequate, has been a huge success and is dirt cheap. They should learn from that. Yet it is compatable (kind of), and people who must have a Swiss movement simply transplant them. The fact that they still rely on ETA for the 2836, 2824, 2892 type stuff is crazy. They should have an admitted forgery (yeah without the ETA stamp on it) and move on showing that it is a high quality movement that need not be "Swiss" for the purpose of a replica watch. After all, how many of us really treat these things as heirlooms? They need only serve most of us for a time before we move on, and as I said if we intend to love it longer, we usually take more than just the movement upgrade step to make it permanent anyway... .02

Thanks Toad. Yeah nothing can be done about the subdial issue given that the gen is a Lemania design and the rep is the Venus 175 copy. Although, the movement does look OK really and passable. I always wondered why they didn't do the gilt VC lettering on the "U" bridge on the rep though. That movement is bulletproof too BTW. I have handed it off at a party before and didn't get called out believe it or not. To me, I honestly think the only tell (unless someone really knows the piece of course) is the weight of the steel. If they were able to weigh it down with lead in the movement ring ir something and did the gilt lettering on the movement, the watch would fool even a serious sports watch collector not familiar with VC. It is a really nice rep for the money. There is a difference in the versions and the so called better one is incorrect actually. The main difference is that they made one version with both subdial hands blued and that is incorrect. You have to make sure you get the single blued subdial hand and the chrono second hand is blued also. The regular second hand at 9 is not. The case is marked with WG stamping and "750" as well on mine. Josh still has my version on his site for $218. VC's are great. Someday, I would like to own a gen Malte chrono and in the more near future I'm going to get a gen WG Patrimony Traditionelle for my wedding...

Like I said, if you like that watch, find a dealer HERE and ask him if he has it. I thought I made that clear? If you want to be assured of safety of transactions and stay away from your fears DON'T buy from there. And yes, Josh is a trusted dealer here and his site is Perfect Clones and the stuff he sells from those brands will be the best stuff available. None of us will usually RECOMMEND anyone other than to point you to the trusted dealers area. Whether you will be impressed with the quality is another story. Look, like I said, you just have to find something you like, buy from someone trusted and get your bearings. In any event, it will cost you peanuts and if it isn't what you expected you can always resell it and get something else. It is a journey my friend and the journey IS the destination.

That is the whole point of the forum brother - protection first. You won't get nothing as so say. As for junk that is subjective for sure. Heed Toad's advice regarding VC's and Pateks. Those genuine watches are much more high end than many sports watches. All things being equal, I think you will find that the best reps around (and I mean Best as in nearly perfect in every way) are of steel sports watches. PP's and VC's are all gold or PT so right off the bat they won't feel right and there just aren't alot of really accurate ones. One of the best around is the Vacheron Malte chrono that is available from any dealer as there is only one watch rep version. I traded mine to another member but I can say it was very nice and quite accurate despite being steel and a bit light. Also, don't make the mistake a lot of noobs do in thinking that what a dealer advertises in his section is all he has. Ask for his web address or photobucket and even then if you don't see it, just ask and he will get it for you. Here is the Malte Chrono on a custom glazed dress gator strap and in a rep box and paper set...

They were back to back in the same year so I forget now which one was first. Either Electric Light Orchestra or Boston in 1976.

These are words of wisdom from Iceberg. Less is more and the more you accumulate, one day you will realize that you don't want everything but just a few key items - and quality over quantity too. More on all this as I think this is an interesting topic offshoot: I used to have a closet full of long sleeve collared shirts - you know, not dress shirts, but casual/dressy type shirts to be worn out instead of tucked in with slacks or jeans. I had every color and fabric and style and they were the stuff you could get at any mall store - maybe fifty of them. Nice enough but they would wear out fast and they just didn't have that extra "something". I gave them all away and now I have just 5 really nice shirts - all Armani Collezioni and Zegna and they cost 4x as much as the others. But the quality is 100x more and when I put one on it just feels and fits and looks perfect. In the end, the cost is the same. Now I think nothing of spending $250 for a shirt, because before I would have bought 4 $60 shirts and never been inspired to wear them. The value in the end is higher and I haven't spent more. And I don't miss the extra variety. In fact, I find myself gravitating to three of the five I have now. Almost can't wait to put them on. I have done the same with watches recently. I used to have 30+, now I have 6 and they are all world class. In the end the cost vs. reward isn't much different there either. If you don't spend $2500 on that PO, I guarantee you that you will probably buy 6 more reps over time with the same money and get sick of them or have problems or be bugged by some flaw or something one day all of a sudden or something. Then you would take losses on the sales and in the end, wish you would have just bought what you really wanted. Not that you shouldn't enjoy the reps too - I do and am about to do a vintage project - they have their place, but they won't ever satisfy that place and provide that gen-only feeling of pure perfection, workmanship, design creativity, history, etc. straight from the source. Which watch or watches is irrelevant... Basically, I realized that whenever I try to be frugal or save money or cut a corner on anything in life - watches, clothes, cars, food, restaurants, etc., bargains always lead to disappointments. Life is too short. I want the best watch, the best shirt, the best steak, the best car, the best whatever I can afford - and not for status either. I buy nice things because they move me and I like quality. I love beef and I buy Prime Angus strips at $20 a pound from a boutique market. My fiance' can't taste the difference and says for that price I should have it served to me in a restaurant. I disagree. Any steak I get in a restaurant for that price isn't even worth eating in my experience. I am the type of guy that if my life turned upside down and I lost everything, I would always want to hold on to something that was of the highest quality. I would live in a cardboard box and wear a Vacheron before I lived in a mansion and wore a flimsy rep with a rickety Asian movement, crooked indices, sloppy lume, and fingerprints and dirt under the crystal all the while thinking how cool I was to be "beating the system" and not paying those inflated gen prices. But if I know all along that the quality is not there who is beating who? To each his own, but for me, like I said - life is too short...

Hey Chef - for more on this topic, I did a thread a little bit ago about that thing that happens when a watch becomes "Personal" as opposed to just part of a "Collection". Hope this helps... http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=88424

Every one of these guys has been deemed to be a trustworthy source by us. You will have to do your own research on the models you like by searching this whole site and reading posts to find the best replications of the brands you are interested in. Then, choose a source here as all of tgem can pretty much source any watch for you. Good luck and welcome aboard. http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showforum=198

Planet Ocean today after alot of threads discussing them...

They worked a good long while on these. The original watch was purchased by Josh as a preorder at Basel when they came out. He waited forever to get it and then as soon as he did it went to pieces right away replicating. I'm sure he is glad to have it back now! I'll have to remember to ask him that. Anyway, I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure the 1:1 host watch was the black dialed version with the black and red bezel - although I know it wasn't the siver/blue variant - and judging from these pics I can see that they didn't quite nail the colors on those... As an aside, I know for a fact the reason this line was chosen was due to the compatability of the A7750 that are so plentiful and cheap. Now more than ever I think they have to really consider the eventual movements for a project even more. It will be interesting to see what the sell through is on these as even the gen is a pretty controversial watch and attracts only certain interest in its design. Some harcore UN owners think it looks cheap even because of the plastic looking floating indices. I say this because to me there is no doubt that if there wasn't any movement issues they would have done the MMD 1846 first and in a heartbeat before the MMD chrono. Hopefully, the Seagull 2892 clone or something like it will be around in droves so they can do one of these eventually. I know from owning the gen, the MMD 1846 would be the hit of the year if they were to nail one of those. Where is Phoband to chime on on this? We should do a petition thread and keep postind MMD 1846 pics until they make one. I need about three other dial variants to go with this one. It has been six months now and I'm still on the honeymoon...

Its no secret that I haven't bought a rep in quite some time. For me, nothing but the gen will do when I really fall in love with a watch. Most of my gens started their affairs with me as reps though. Any watch can be the ONE really. It has nothing to do with the PO per se. It is what your heart decides. My collection has gotten smaller and smaller and my ONE really is covered by a FEW. But the concept is the same. All any man needs is a thing or two of great meaning to move his heart IMO. So to that end I have adopted the UBI mantra - quality over quantity. And yes, the PO is a very high quality piece. And take that from a guy who has owned a pretty good cross section of gens of high value over the years. The fit and finsh of a gen PO is superb and may be one of the best values around at that price. You should be able to get one for close to 30% off though if you push the right buttons. Maybe $2500 or so on rubber I would think. I have both the steel and rubber for mine and I love them both...

Yes, the reps all look slightly smaller. That is a little known fact about these. The reason is the lugs. The width of each lug from the inner edge that touches the endlink to the outside edge of the horn at the thinnest part is narrower on the rep and thicker on the gen. The reason is that they probably started with the right size when they milled the case blanks, but then they took away too much metal when they polished the case. This really shows up on these watches alot. Consider two gen DJ's, one with the older and one with the newer case. The newer cases have the wider lug horns and the older has the original narrow style. The distance bigger is just a fraction, but it really changes the overall look of the watch in a big way. But keep in mind Rolex has NOT changed the DD case at all. The reps are pretty close to the gens though - a little smaller from over polishing but I agree they do always look smaller. But I think that can be more attributed due to smaller dials and larger dial fonts / spacing issues... Corgi's old style case: My Gen M serial case: BTW, to the OP I never answered your question. My gen DJ has a rhodium dial. Rhodium is the white metal used to make white gold look really white. It actually looks kind of like a multi-toned steely greyish silver. Much more alive looking than silver though. Very few Rolex watches are offered with silver dials anymore - mostly rhodium. But for your purposes here, think of rhodium as a color and not as a material as it relates to the way the dials look...

Personally I would get the white dial from Josh. He will make it with a smooth or fluted bezel and either a President or Oyster bracelet on request. Although the Oysters have been recently discontinued on gen DD's. The silver is not really correct - it should be rhodium for this watch and what you show is too lightly colored. The white is a safe bet ad I think it looks great. You wont be unhappy with the CZ's as I said. Small CZ's look fine. Oh and the glacier/ice blue is not feminine at all. I'm getting the gen soon and it is amazing in person. The rep color is just off and looks very turquoise. I have never seen a pic that captures the true color of it, but it looks more like this, but even lighter. It is a very subtle color and stunning. The best dial color by far IMO:

The watch pictured is supposed to be a glacier/ice blue dial. The color isn't very good really. And you should also know that the genuine watch is only available with that dial in platinum and retails for $47,500. So you may want to pic another dial for a rep. The stick markers or diamonds are best really as the romans are a little anemic (thin). If I were you I would go with a rhodium dial (darker silver grey) which is pretty good on the reps. I would stick with a steel watch which of course is also incorrect as the DD is only available in 750 and 950 and not steel, but it will pass looks wise but not weight and feel. The diamonds are actually not bad. Rolex uses flawless D diamonds in its watches and CZ's are actually fairlly perfect and colorless believe it or not. So CZ markers on the rep will actually look OK. Then you don't have the lume strength/color/appliaction issues either and if they are crooked you can heat the glue and reset them or have someone do it for you for a little labor fee. Hope that helps.

Thanks Z. I couldn't have articulated as well as you did, but you really nailed the paradox of how I feel about it. By definition, we all love perfection or we wouldn't be here. Yet, we are usually willig to make sacrifices to that for the sake of money and/or the fun of projects. For me, if I remove the "project" element I realized that as long as I can swing it I will just pony up for perfection. The reason why to buy a gen for me probably reads something like: "Why not? I only live once so why not get what I really want. It's only money...". I just realized I love perfect watches more than I love saving money by cutting a few corners. But for me that isn't a watch thing - that is how I do everything in my life so it makes sense really given my personality. But when you leave the "project" in the mix though, the line becomes blurred. On the one hand, I end up asking myself why do the project if I know I'll like the gen more and then that wins out - but I'm also not a guy who works on his own watches. I send them out all over for different things and to be honest, that has become less fun over the years for me. Plus, for a modern watch I feel since the end result is still never 100% the only real reason to do it for me would be money because I don't do the labor. So to that end I decided to never buy modern reps again. But for vintage I think I will have the most rewarding experience ever here. With those there is no excuse. I can't buy a NOS 1680 if I wanted to so an homage is not only a labor of love, it is also the only alternative. I think that will rekindle my fire. Not aging them solves every issue for me and allows me to do something unique at the same time. Since they will not be aged I will never say to myself, "Hey, just buy a gen vintage..." Nor will I feel bogged down trying to get the rep aged perfectly to look just like the gen watch. I can start with some great rep stuff, do some simple lume, gen crystal, gen crown & tube, drilled lugs, CG shaping, maybe a DW overlay and I will truly be happy with the result for once and enjoy sharing it with non-rep people. In the rep world that is beyond my experience given that I have always been too focused on perfection for the reason you state brings us here in the first place. I also have realized lately that this really isn't a hobby for me so much anymore believe it or not. Coming to the forum is, but watches aren't my hobby like they are to Freddy or Tribal or Lani. Those guys are all serious modders and collectors that have work benches and parts and in the case opf Lani, boxes and boxes of watches. I just sold more than a dozen gens because I couldn't stand to own anything I didn't wear all the time. I'm doing that in every corner of my life which is another story. My biggest goal is to live in a hotel and buy new clothes every week in exchange for having no closet space. LOL. Seriously. But anyway, watches for me have become something different and personal and to that end I could never really be a collector anymore unless I had a real purpose like the NOS vintage idea I have to create a sort of historical time capsule. But I doubt my fleet of modern watches will change much ever again from what I have now and if it does it will be maybe a few key substitutions and no additions for sure. In any case, we each have our own path here and I'm glad we have talked about it. The DS is a great example of how just because a rep is great and a key model for the year and high in cool factor, for me I don't love it (although I like the idea of it) and that is a good enough reason not to own it given my new path in watch land. But like all dilemas around here Z, it is very much enjoyable my friend - as is the company of guys like yourself in good conversation. Peace.

Hahaha Kruzer. You are right though. And that is what it has come to for me really only because the industry chooses the path they do. But I still think they are a waste of money sometimes knowing the rep factory could nail them if they wanted to. The little details are everything in horology to me. But I sort of grew into that through a love for reps ironically. Oh well... Of course on this watch I wouldn't buy the gen as it doesn't interest me - but if it did I'm sure that is what I would end up doing. To each his own of course which is what makes us great here, but if I really love something only the gen is ever going to do it for me. That is how I ended up with the PO, the modern DJ, The Aquatimer, and many more. But I'm very pleased with them all of course. Hey, they are perfect, right?! So now as 2009 moves in, I have decided to only pursue vintage reps and a whole new knowledge base which is very exciting for me. With those I can treat them as homage pieces and never be disappointed and I can share them as such with friends and clients, etc. I'm also not going to age them and build them as NOS homage pieces as if came out of a time capsule - on purpose. That way I'm not really after the details other than what gen parts and mods can be fit for quality reasons. But with these vintage homage pieces the whole point won't be to get them gen like, but to make a recreation which are sort of purposefully flawed given that it is just an homage anyway. So to that end I can enjoy the process without really having to go for as much perfection as we all like to do with our modern reps if that makes any sense. It sort of eliminates my issues with so called 1:1 modern reps that are still flawed and still allows me to participate here other than just posting my watches in wristchecks which I miss to be honest. The thrill of the hunt... Above all, I'm looking forward to wearing a vintage rep and actaully hoping people go, "Hey, is that a fake?" to which I can proudly answer, "Why yes, I had it built up from replica and gen parts to resemble a watch from the 60's (or whatever) as a conversation piece." In my world if I did that with modern reps I'm not sure how it would go over to be honest - especially with clients. I'm not sure most of them would want to know I owned replica Rolex instead of buying one in a store like they did. But I'm 100% sure they would be intereted in a brand new 67' recreation that I assembled from parts from all over which can't be bought in any store in that condition... In any case, to all the DS owners: Good luck with these and enjoy them. They are obviously really great reps and well made. Cheers!

Geez I know brah. I'm wondering how much coffee I drank to write that. LOL. I am amped from the holidaze I guess... Nah, I don't really care for the watch - too chunky for my taste. And as great as it is I probably picked the wrong thread/watch to rant about factory stuff on. Sorry bro. Has nothing to do with the DS really... Again, and for the record, from what I can tell, this is but another near perfect rep and I think it is great. I guess the better they get I realize more and more that the lack of perfection is a conciousl effort to generate more capital with more and more versions. I mean hey, they have been doing it with Subs for how long now? Rules of the game I know, but I still wish there was a higher cost option or something to get basically flawless versions of any super rep...

Ladies DJ's in the 26MM size are offered in steel with either Oyster or Jubilee bracelets. The President bracelet is only offered in gold or platinum models to be correct. The next size up is acually considered a Men's midsize model and is 31MM. These are only available in Jubilee and Oyster bracelets as Men's President bracelets are only available on the DayDate. IMO, a gen gold fluted bezel is an unnecessary upgrade. The rep fluted bezels (and smooth for that matter) are more than adequate. Actually, the rep DJ's of both sizes are really nice base watches in terms of cases and bracelets. I have had a 36MM rep or three and the latest Jubilee and new style Oyster with the new style Rolesor clasp are great. The hands are great too. A gen dial is all you will need assuming you start with the best quality ETA watch, which you should be able to get for just over $200 or so. I agree with Andy in that you should just get a standard 36MM Men's model and go from there. If you don't do a gen dial to start you should know that the romans on the full size watch are a bit anemic so you may want to start with sticks which are better.

Great review and pics Lani as usual. This watch isn't my cup of tea in looks or feel or wearability, but there is no doubt they came close to really nailing this one. The dial print is quite an improvement and they new clasp system on these is genius. I spent some time checking that out at the AD the other day. I also like the blue lume glow for a change. Of course this watch (like all reps) has that one or more little things that make you just be so annoyed at the factories. Like in this case not beveling the date window edges. That would bug me for sure. The fonts you really can't see so it is no big deal, but if they are doing a so called 1:1 replication, why not trace the dial and get the fonts perfect too? Of course I have been asking that question alone for 5 years now and the answer is they won't ever make any one version perfect so they can sell the same watch over and over with different verisons. I just wish there was an option to pay more up front and get the perfect version instead of having to buy two or three watches and swap parts over time. You know they will come out with a V2 or V3 that will have the serifs, but then the dial finish will be wrong. Or they will fix the bevel on the date window but the dial print will be bad on that version or something. Oh well, I don't mean to be overly critcal but it just gets boring seeing the same mistakes made on purpose every time a new rep comes out. And for me, the closer they get to achieveing gen quality it amplifies the phenomenon even more. In a way, I liked reps better when they were more flawed. Now that the bar is so high it is more frustrating knowing that every single flaw and quality issue is literally a concious choice to get it wrong. As I said, I wish they would just have the standard 1:1 watch for each model with a few flaws for $300 or whatever and then a perfect verison for like three times as much or something and they were dead honest and said, "Look, we need to sell multiple versions to keep you coming back and make it worth our while, but if you want to surrender right now to sinking a grand into the perfect rep we will let you do it now instead of over time with several versions, swapped parts, and a trip to your modder..." If I were a factory, I would want to get some of those mod dollars for myself and get creative with better versions and charge picky guys like me a fortune for that perfection... Don't get me wrong, if I liked the gen piece I would buy this rep IN A SECOND. It is really a great replication no doubt. But since I know dealers and factotries and dealers who partner with factories read our threads, someone has to keep saying this stuff in the hopes that maybe someone will start taking advantage of an opportunity to charge some of us more by pre-perfecting future versions and do it right at the outset specifically to charge Ideal Watches type pricing. LOL. Hey factory man, listen up. I'm a sucker. Take me down. LOL. You guys are losing good money to gen companies from guys like me who pay outragous prices for those because you refuse to make perfect watches on purpose. For a truly perfect ETA rep I would absolutely pay a ton for it - for the priviledge of not having to "ship a case and a dial to be swapped - and a different caseback - and crown from the Asian version - yadayada- whatever to a modder for lume and AR and labor and reassembly, etc." A guy can dream can't he?

Thank you very, very, very much Alli - much appreciated. Man, the gene pool around never ceases to amaze me. Walking watch encyclopedia's abound...

A knot can be fat or thin, but it must be sized right to the spread. A Full Windsor should never be worn with a pinpoint collar like this, nor should any not be obscured by the wings like this. And yes, Bond has a Half Windsor. That knot goes with any collar style really - as long as the tightness is appropriate for the collar, but again, a Full Windsor should never be worn with anything other than wide spread collars. And for the record, wide spreads are always considered more formal than points. For the most formal look a super wide English spread and a Full Windsor with a two button jacket is the ticket. That can be varied on down to less and less formal with more pointed collars and smaller, more assymetrical knots. For example a retail guy in a hardware store that has to wear a tie might choose a button down Oxford and a Four-In-Hand...

Please help in my education as I prepare to embark on my vintage journey in 2009. Thanks in advance for your answers. What year did Rolex begin using sapphire crystals? Was it the same year for several models? In other words, did the Sub and Dweller switch to sapphire in the same year? Did the shape of the crystals all change when they made the switch? In other words, are there any identical sized crystals during the crossovers that have the exact same size and profile but differ only by material? Also, are the cyclops maginfication on 1680 Subs more powerful than modern Subs, or are the date font sizes just bigger giving that appearance? Finally, I notice that older style T pearls on inserts tend to age at a rate faster than the dials. Is that because the luminous material is directly exposed to air on the old inserts without any kind of "glazing" or crystal material seen on modern watches from Rolex and other brands? But why is it that some pearls seem not to age badly as compared to others on watches of similar vintages?

Cool. The craze of these kind of died out but I have no idea why. One of the best reps ever. Just oozing with quality. Seeing this makes me wish I hadn't let mine go for a bit. Nice piece abat!