mezzanine

I've been continuing to do research on this issue, and have confirmed that there is sufficient evidence to suggest that these bracelets are fake. Even if there is still some ambiguity and room for doubt, I would caution anyone who is currently considering the purchase of one of these NOS 7836 bracelets from Hong Kong to avoid doing so until this can be resolved definitely. Problem is, most of these parts can't be authenticated beyond a certain degree of certainty in the best of cases.

Freddy, I think that at least a possible answer to your question about why our collectors might not have access to them is available in a post a few above this one- but I agree that there are a lot of variables that leave this open to debate. I'm not sure if I agree with you about the clasp being up to usual gen standards. The endlinks look amazing, BTW, so that adds another variable in favor of the notion that they are gen. But the clasp looks suspicious, and it's the same on all of them, and as far as I know there are no available references of similar clasps on gen 7836's for comparison. But seriously...3 new old stock 7836 bracelets sold on the Bay within the last week?

And that's the problem. As I said before, I'm not even sure it's a fake. I think there is enough cause to open it up for questioning- and unlike in a court of law, my attitude towards these parts is guilty until proven innocent. I agree that it is not a clear-cut situation. I don't think Stilty is being at all unreasonable to take a wait and see approach, especially given the quality of the bracelets. Here is another pic of the inside of the links. The metal of the links is supposedly overpressed in the middle of each link. This is supposed to be most apparent in the centre link sections. You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards the theory that they're fake. My common sense tells me that if all of a sudden there are a bunch of new old stock 7836 bracelets available all coming from Hong Kong, something is not right. Simply put, there are not that many NOS 7836 in circulation to realistically account for the number that are showing up in the market. There shouldn't be more than one NOS 7836 coming becoming available in the ANY Rolex market more than once a month at the absolute upper limit. Otherwise, it simply doesn't fit with the historical model of supply/demand and the scarcity of these parts, even if we only limit ourselves to those in good condition, let alone NEW. An analogy would be if a tiny convenience store at the end of your corner started selling the winning national lottery ticket every single week. Or even better, as someone who used to work in a casino, if someone starts hitting roulette or bacarat every single hand/spin, you better get surveilance off their butts and trying to figure out how they're skewing the odds. If it happens a few times, you can write it off to random probability. But especially in the case of something so potentially profitable to the sellers of these bracelets, they're eventually going to get greedy. That's exactly what they've done, and now they've exposed themselves through their greed by making themselves conspicuous by flooding the market with these bracelets... Comparing the engraving of the numbers on the last bracelet link, the 7836 on the one in question appears to be engraved more deeply, in the sense that the numbers created a greater indentation and looks as though it was pressed as a stamp, whereas compared to the for sure genuine one I just bought which has the numbers engraved and the effect is that the numerals are visible as less deeply punched and are more sharply defined. I have a feeling that might be one of the tricks...the engraving as opposed to the 'stamped' apperance. Here's mine for comparison: Wow, is this getting tough.

This could be one of those very rare scenarios where even some of the pros have got fooled by the cleverness of the rep-makers. Usually I would agree that buying your seller is sufficient to ensure safety, but in this case, one of the reasons it came to light was because it had been sneaking by even some of the most respected sellers in the genuine community. I agree with your point about potentially using these if they were to filter down to our market- but as it stands right now, I think that these have been introduced in such a way as to try to pass them off as gen for as long possible. I'm not sure if they'll ever be available in a more widestream channel, or at least probably not until they stop going for nearly 1k on the bay.... I believe these guys have been successful because they were able to keep us from getting our hands on them or even becoming aware of their existence. It represents an intriguing shift in the strategy of the rep makers...try to fool the rep community, and then if you can fool them, chances are the genuine community isn't going to as vigilant about pieces that they can't come here and verify have not been repped.

Freddy, I think this is the picture that you were asking for- one showing the underside of the links. Here is an abbreviated list of the supposed differences: The coronet on the clasp is wrong. The location of the coronet on the clasp is wrong. The coronet on the clasp blades is wrong. The alignment of PATENTED & REGISTERED and SWISS MADE is wrong. It should be like a rail dial with '&' and 'S' on the left and 'R' and 'M' on the right. The STEELINOX stamping is wrong. The metal of the links is overpressed in the middle of each link. This is most apparent in the centre link sections. The 7836 stamp does not look correct but I would need better images to be sure.

I'm going to try to dig up some more pics guys- another thing, the center links on the fakes are too thick in the middle, I think. This is all a very imprecise process... The fakes are also a little thicker. I was worried Freddy when I first looked at the bracelet on one of your Daytona's, but you're all good unless I'm mistaken- and the way I was able to tell was with the engraving of the numbers on yours as well as the thickness and the fact it's not NOS. Also, Oli has really hit the nail on the head. I'm not going to assume anything is real anymore. Another point I would add is that IF these 7836 really were NOS, I wouldn't imagine that the legion of folks who do little else but collect these rare and valuable parts would be letting them slip by for anything less than $1000 US. That's why I immediately assumed I'd been scammed when I got a good deal on one and then learned that there was this problem of ambiguity. Take a look at the coronet's on the clasps in pictured above. The oval at the bottom of the emblem looks too rounded to me, but then again, I've seen some genuine ones that look just as questionable....

I was in the same position a little while back. Decided to sell it. I don't have the skills to mod them, and the cost of getting them done was a little prohibitive for me on my more limited budget...

Just to try to flesh this out a little more, here's the problem: The bracelets that are being sold are all coming out of Hong Kong, and almost all of them are being sold NOS. The reasons for the skepticism regarding their authenticity centers on a few central issues. The first is the inside of the clasp, and the stamping of the words. Here's a 'conventional' genuine: Here's the 'NOS' clasp: The 'steelinox' is aligned in a strange position on the NOS clasp and the stamping of the letters is not typical of Rolex, but looks like a lighter engraving method than on typical clasps. The alignment of the letters looks a little off. When I look at the coronet on the inside of the NOS clasp, it looks a little funky, but that's a little more subjective. The outside of the clasp has the coronet stamped on it. On the genuine, the rolex spikes are long and extend down to the lower oval elipse. The NOS example has a different looking coronet: If you notice also the position of the coronet is much further down on the clasp than on the 'conventional' one....

It's funny Stilty, you beat me to the punch, but I was just about to post something to that effect. I'm holding my position that it's fake based on our best evidence at this point- and there's a great deal of debate about this in the gen community right now as this is a very recent development, they just caught onto it quicker than we did, cause they're always dealing with genuine parts- we're only occasionally using them. There's no question, though, that this is an ambiguous issue- so I could very easily be wrong.

I've was just tellling CBR via PM that I've been going through member reviews and looking at who I may have to message with some bad news...one is pretty much guaranteed fake. I've confirmed Oli's is real on his 1655 and I *believe* the one that I got this afternoon is real as well, but all of the fakes are coming from Hong Kong, and when I realized that mine is also coming from Hong Kong, I started to get even more nervous. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I didn't really even look at the pics, other than to see real briefly what type of condition it was in, as I was convinced it wasn't going to last and wasn't going to start getting picky. So you can imagine my thought process as I was going back to check the pics to see if it was gen with the assumption I was going to be in for a disappointment. The bracelet in the pics that I was given is genuine, but if I'm going to receive the one in the picture is another question. As I mentioned in the first post, the problem isn't being able to identify the bracelets as fake so much as it's even knowing that there are fake folded link bracelets out there market place right now. The ones that are fake are usually being sold as NOS (suspicious in itself, considering the age of the bracelets and their demand) and are mostly on the Bay.

Well....this came about as a result of a bad feeling I got a couple weeks when a friend here asked me about a NOS 7836 he had just scored for a wicked deal. Understand that I thought hard about whether I should post this before contacting him, but I don't think it would impact negatively on his ability to recover his investment, so I'm going to put it out there anyways. As far as I know, the conventional wisdom from the members who follow the vintage rolex's is that there are no folded replica bracelets. This is not true. I have done some research and been able to determine that there are, indeed, fake folded replica 7836 bracelets usually coming from Hong Kong that are currently being sold successfully on the open market as authentic rolex. This is an ironic situation in the sense that some of the folks here may have got burned in trying to mod their watches with what they believed was a genuine part. I won't get too detailed into how I've been able to reach this conclusion at this point, I wanted to get the message out there in case there was anyone else who may have been at risk of getting burned- I know there are a few of us who have been doing the hunt for genuine bracelets recently...

I wish I'd caught this before the big reveal! Awesome watch...really nice. The first thing I thought was that the dial on the GW is genuine- but then as Oli mentioned it looks like there's some damage or lack of tritium on some of the markers. I thought the crown guards on the case looked like they were reppish, in the sense of being too thick...but maybe I'm off on that. The movement looked real as evidenced by the datewheel font as well as the fact it didn't look at all recessed...but that's a tough one to tell. The bracelets looked obviously gen to me. So did the bezel, interestingly, so it makes me wonder if it would be at all possible to get a similar bezel from Phong separately, as it looks like a big improvement over the MBK version. It bothers me that I can spot that so easily in a sense, in terms of the difference with the genuine parts, and I'm not trying to be falsely self-depricating. It just makes it more expensive for me to get to point of feeling like I'm finally done...

Stilty, your score on that NOS 7836 vintage bracelet inspired me so much that I think the stars aligned and I got one for myself recently for a nice deal. Again, for the SeaDweller, I don't mind the idea of going with a incorrect bracelet that much. The 9315 is just way too expensive ($1000 recently) whereas the functionally and aesthetically very similar 7836 is closer to $600 from what I've been seeing in the market. I felt good about getting this one for $400...it looks like it's in very good condition from the pics and comes with 258 endlinks that are likely to be sold separately at some point. I've only just recently popped a genuine 78360 with 580's on my 1665 and the difference is significant enough that I think, depending on the level of mods you've already got done, is a worthwhile upgrade over the replica bracelet. There is a caveat....I don't think it's worth it to invest in a 'correct' vintage bracelet for either the 1680 or 1665. It's just too expensive to be rationalized, most of the time. But finding a genuine bracelet that is very very close, but for which the genuine market isn't as popular as it is with the sub, is a good way to get the benefit of the gen bracelet's finish and precision. I also really like the folded bracelets because they haven't been repped, and I don't anticipate we're going to see them repped any time soon. Especially with the SeaDweller, I like having the older style bracelet. Also, it's nice to have some variation if you have both a 1680 and a 1665 and would like to get some variety in the look between the two pieces. What's interesting is that my 1680 is going to be perfect, from the stand point of being consistent with it's genuine counterpart from a parts perspective. My 1665 is going to be incorrect because it has a folded 7836 instead of 9315 and an aftermarket dial. And yet, the character and unique styling of the 1665 with the folded bracelet and it's much more 'aged' look give it an appeal that is all it's own and in no way secondary to the 1680 with correct gen dial/bracelet.

Totally understood, Offshore. I will cease from posting in this thread at this time. For the record, I have never purchased, inquired, or communicated with TTK at any point during my stay here. I've probably conservatively conducted over 30 transactions here and on RWI and I don't think you would find someone who would say that I dealt with them in anything other than a professional manner which exhibited personal, business, and moral integrity. There are many dealers here for which that description would also apply. Take care not to under-estimate the intelligence of the user base, that's all I ask. Interesting that this is considered "off-topic" to the discussion. Perhaps in closing the admins could outline their own perceptions of how TTK has benefitted the forum over the last year through these types of episodes. "Quiet down over there" Don't think you guys are inspiring any faith in your membership, but that's your prerogative, it's the type of decision that led to the departure of The Zigmeister, whose value to this place eclipses everyone here by a significant margin. I hope that everything goes more quietly under the rug this time, and whatever arrangement it is that keeps Neil getting business through this place can remain in tact. For a forum that supposedly is FOR the membership and seeks transparency about shady practices in the rep world. For the admins shut down this type of thread because of an expression of skepticism about whether members are being fully protected, is indeed a significant moment. You know what? I just realized that my comments are ultimately irrelevant. If Neil isn't going to be selling any more reps, there is no problem. I am sure that he will no longer continue to sell on RWG due to the condition that has caused the latest round of problems and delays. His ability to continue his watch selling practices into the future was what was ultimately at issue, as what is done is already done. As a result, even if there were any truth to my earlier comments, it wouldn't matter as far as protecting future RWG memebers in the future. There's no need for my skepticism regardless of the veracity of the story being outlined by TTK.

Dude, I'm just sitting here in shock at how easily this gets swallowed up. And what makes it so much worse is that I don't feel RWG has taken the safety of their membership into account as their highest priority in continuing to allow him to practice his unethical and incompetant business behavior. What the does your eyesight have to with the way you're handling other people's money, Neil? And why do you so consistently feel the need to drop out of sight or communication for months at a time, only to re-enter stage left with a tall tale of personal hardship and "poor me" to try to elicit sympathy in an effort to distract from the abuses or your shady business. Give me a break. More importantly, give the poor suckers who were dumb enough to give you their money some respect. Even if you don't give them back their money, just don't insult everyone's intelligence. RWG, as far as I'm concerned, just like with the practice of the unscrupulous modders that you failed to control that caused the departure of this forum's largest asset, The Zigmeisterzumba, to leave due to the morally questionable position you put us by failing to respond appropriately.

I should leave this thread well alone... But let me say that if I had no previous history or awareness of Neil's problems with being able to maintain the standards of a usual business, I would be as outraged at the prospect of someone drawing into question the relevance of this message to my $$ as many seem to be. That's called being a decent human being, and that's exactly why the response is constructed in the manner as to elicit the type of reaction we're seeing from those that likely don't have $$ being held somewhere by Neil. I'm very sorry if the health situation is such as it's being described. I have no desire or interest to call into question the legitimacy of someone who is going through something as devastating and challenging as the prospect of going blind. But what I would call into question is the chorus of folks who may not have been down this road before with TTK, or who may not see a patten in his responses that is far too stereotypical of him to not subject to even a shred skepticism. Based on the past instances that have shared many of the qualities of this latest round, I personally don't think he gets that credibility, but that's just me...and as I've watched group after group get frustrated and feel like they've been ripped off, I just sit here and feel thankful that it's not me, while wondering about the state of RWG much like I did when The Zigmeister said he was retiring. If I'm a "monster" for saying any of this, so be it. It had to be said.

jfreeman420 we should chat if you get closer to making a decision. What's crazy is that I came extremely close to buying my savannah from the same breeder that has the habari. They Habari is really impressive with it's size. I'd go for a savannah, though, if it were me. If you went for an F2 male from the right breeder with the right parents, you could get around 25lbs except it will be more like 40lbs visually compared to the Habari because of the difference in body types. That's why when I was looking at the options I decided on the savannah instead of the bengal. The bengals are fantastic looking as well, but they have a domestic cats body type, so the weight distribution isn't as exotic appearing as it is with the Savannah. I don't think the Habari is worth it now that there are savannah's, and I'm not even sure that the Habari's would have the same unique personality in terms of being walkable on a leash and all of that stuff. I don't think the huge $$ premium they command because they're an experimental line from one particular breeder is a good value at all. God, I keep getting scared my guy is going to hurt himself the way he bombs after his toys playing fetch....

I think it would be easier to get a Labrador to stop playing fetch more easily than it is to get this guy to stop. Problem is, he gets the other cat excited to play when I'm playing fetch with him, but whenever I throw it, it's the new guy that always gets there first so the my other cat is left out in the cold during play time. It's to the point where if he comes back and doesn't have it cause he couldnt' find it or whatever, I'll go "where is it" and hold out my hands, and he'll go back and find it or bring back a new toy for me to throw. The new cat is an absolute baby. I've been surprised at the level of affection so quickly...when we first got him I'd figured he was going to take a while to warm up based on how skittish he was around people initially. Also, he doesn't really like to held or restrained in any way because of the wild genetics. I thought the serval aspect would probable mute some of the domestic qualities that are most sought after from a personality perspective like sociability and friendliness. In reality, I think it does the exact opposite. I'd read that the savannah's were more dog-like, but I've heard that for so long about animals that are considered 'new' pets, and most if not all are nothing like a dog. It's all just marketing hype. At the time I brushed it off, but now I'm finding it harder to ignore the comparison because there's a quality beyond the sociability and friendliness that I haven't seen before in any other cat- loyalty and bonding. I don't know what other domestic animal other than a dog has those qualities. He follows me around everywhere. Is more trusting and affectionate and expressive than any cat I've seen. If I'm lying down he'll pop up on the bed and nestle under my arm pit and flip on his back look right up at me and meow his weird and disturbing meow until I give him some tummy rubs, and then it's purr time until I fall asleep. If I'm at the computer like I am now, he's at my feet nuzzling his mousey under my chair so that I'll pick it up throw it down the hallway so he can pounce on it and bring it back and do it again. I think it's the serval part...I read that servals in captivity bond so close with their initial owners that if you remove them after a certain point they can die due to the effects of the separation. It's also interesting to see what behaviors he's coming with, as far as what his breeder did before we received him as far as his behavior. For example, my cat knows that if I'm in the kitchen, I'm not getting anything of interest to him as far as food because his food is kept in a bin in another room. If I even step foot in the kitchen, you'd think the police were on the way with how loud the savannah gets with his meowing. I know I'm well beyond the point of absurdity when it comes to being enthused about such things, but damn if it isn't the best source of entertainment going for people easily amused like myself...

Don't get me wrong, it was still lame.

I've heard of a couple of good options in the US. I can't remember the guy's name, but I remember thinking he wasn't very well known, had excellent prices, and was very skilled and willing to work on reps...tip of my tongue. I'll come back and update it if I can EVER log into RWI.

I could live with it if the PVD was gen-like, but otherwise not.

I think you guys may have to expand your search area to the national level. Looking for someone within state is going to limit your search unless you decide to try to find someone who works on watches through the typical retail channels in your area.

A year ago, I wouldn't have understood this. Today, I smile and nod. I have two vintage rollies that are fully modded that have supplanted everything else in my collection. Freddy, I've got to ask you about that helium valve mod some time.

This is the one that I would go for if they were to do it correctly.