mezzanine

I think the Zenith Defy Extreme is the line to go with, as far as the ultra modern looking, multi-layered, multi-substance dial/case etc... It could be really cool, if they pulled it off right.

Yeah, and in general in any type of buying situation like this, if the watch doesn't come with the box and papers, then you need to take measures to verify that the watch is genuine. I wouldn't buy a watch off of craigslist without cracking the caseback, inspecting the serial, etc..

I received a watch from another member through trade, and even though I told myself I wouldn't try it on and wear it until he received his, I couldn't help myself from snapping a few pics and generating an initial impression of the watch. I was immediately taken by the strong interior AR on the crystal. I know it's considered to be slightly over-done, but I feel that it improves the overall look of the watch. The gold hands add a focal point and contrast that gives the simplicity of the pam a needed jolt. I am probably going to look to V to craft a strap for this one, especially seeing how awesome some of the new hides are that he recently got hold of. Unfortunately, where it was probably going to be a trade, due to what looks like a lost package in the mail system , it might take a little while longer before I'm able to swing it. I don't know whether a gold stitch on the black greek hide, or the new burgundy hide would look, but having seen V's work, I'd encourage anyone to jump on-board. The person I traded watches with made some really cool straps of his own- but I'm a one-strap kinda guy...I like to get a good custom one that I really feel matches it well and then leave it on the watch indefinitely. Without further ado... Here's a profile shot of the domed crystal that has made DSN's fiddy sought after: Some wrist shots: A lume shot of the watch after maybe 15 seconds exposed to 60 watts at around 12 inches- Thanks for checking out the mini-review of this highly sought after watch.

Saw a picture of a '78 white 1680 that I thought could be used as a visual reference for comparison with a rep that has been modded to try to emulate this specific Rolex watch. Here's the gen: Here's the rep: Unfortunately my photographic ability is sadly lacking, but it can give a feel for some of the differences and similarities. I feel that the insert, the crystal and dial are the key pieces in making the rep appear more like the genuine.

It also depends on what rep you're talking about. With a modern rolex sub, like was used as the example, I'm relatively un-interested in whether it's gen or fake. I am not too excited about those in the wild. Everyone knows that they're the most highly faked watch, and believe it or not, most people are aware or are becoming aware that there are high quality replica watches/handbags, etc...

The observation about the bezel assembly makes me wonder if they were able to get a hold of the WM9 subs, and have used that as a base for the newer release? The intrigue and drama is driving me nuts, I'm curious to see what this one is going to be like. I'm not likely to buy one, only because I'm so loaded up on subs/SD's already (by my standard), but I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to this on the basis of the rehaut engraving if it was done well, unlike many others...

That sums up my opinion well. I might be tempted by the Swordfish, but probably not this one.... Does look very impressive-

When you say that it has 'rolex' inscribed along the rehaut- I thought it was only the newer releases like the yachtmaster II and the ceramic GMT? It would be nice if there were a good bracelet option for those that don't want to drop all sorts of cash on a genuine. Is TTK releasing a re-design of the vintages? I'm assuming that he's talking about a new modern model...

You be careful to disregard the posts by the above poster, Freddy333- you could end up like me and dangerously tempted to get hooked into his web of horribly addicting Daytonas. Believe me, if you already have this much prediliction about Daytonas, you need to run...not walk...run..away from this thread and not look back. Seriously though...the modern Daytona is the best modern Rolex, IMO, and the vintages can be much better.

I decided that I'd post the answer to your PM in this thread, as it might be useful for other members who are considering the same. I think that this has become a more popular route recently, and perhaps not wisely so once you see the $$ on some of these dials- this is the type of information that is usually only available in the 'supporters only' area of the site. My suggestion is to be smart about what parts you choose to go gen with, as some are not as important to the overall 'look' of the watch. I think you're probably smart to get a re-dial, but keep in mind that it's only you that's going to really appreciate that level of detail. I would go with a red dial, and look for the best possible quality dial for around $300 US. Otherwise you could get a less than perfect gen dial that hasn't be refinished for around $500. It can be a little tricky to find the right re-dial...especially for a red submariner. You'll be glad you went red, though. This dial would need to be sent to The Zigmeister in canada to be re-lumed, which would be indistinguishable from the gen tritium and install, which would add $100 to the cost. The dial itself would be around $600. That's what I meant when I said that it would cost around $700 for a gen white dial. Here's another one that would run closer to $950- these are current prices, btw... Or, if you're feeling ambitious, and want to take a look at a red dial that I believe is ready to go for intall, and is $3500: The suggestions about where to source re-dials are best left to other members. There's more 'art' involved in them. I've got what I believe to be a re-dial on my SD, which was done by the guy at classicwatchparts. There are popular re-dialers like NDtrading and such.

Interesting, Freddy- I've been debating this one myself for quite a while, and I think I'm going to end up springing for the gen eventually. It seems that the rep bracelets just can't get close to the finish and feel of the gen. It's going to be expensive- 50% of what I paid for my 1680 for a bracelet...hmmm....maybe I'll rethink it?

As someone with a modded MBW 1680 with a genuine dial, I'd suggest that it's going to be too costly to be really worth while. I would get a good re-dial of a red submariner dial- like Ptolomeo did and go from there. They're cheaper, the red subs are cooler, and if you can't re-sell it at a later point, you won't be out a ton of money. Put the remaining money you save towards more gen parts- specifically an insert/crystal/crown/tube/endlinks... That's what I would have done had I not run into a unique chance to get a watch that was already completed. I'm relatively aware of the market for these dials, and a white one in similar condition to mine would set you back around $700, I'm thinking. A good re-dial you should be able to pick up for a few hundred max, and you have more freedom in what you can choose- ie: go with something more exotic like a red or a gilt dial, etc...

These echo my thoughts, too. Not so much the aspect of wearing particular watches around certain people, but more the idea of investing disproportionately in a single watch that gets 50% of the total wrist time in my collection- By-Tor, you're right that it's a personal philosophy issue...it's a grey-area question that comes down to the individual's own decision. I'm leaning towards not over doing it with the one watch...

I've been wearing the triple-6 for the last few days, and have enjoyed switching it up after giving my 1680 a long run...

How do you tell when you've hit the point of diminishing returns with modding an individual rep? The question is more complicated, as it also includes a secondary question of how one tries to balance the money invested in an individual 'project' watch, vs. the rest of one's collection. At what point does it become ridiculous to put money into one watch when we're collecting reps, not gens? I'm looking at the idea of buying a used Rolex bracelet for my 1680. The problem is that the cost of the bracelet is going to be in the $400-500 range. That's enough money to buy a really nice modded rep or a "super rep". Buying reps is all about getting bang-for-the-buck, and to go too far overboard with any rep strikes me as potentially losing perspective on the whole point. At the same time, the 1680 is my 'best' watch and daily beater. It's the watch that I have the most $$ in anyways. But it's still a rep. I don't mind modding parts that need to be modded to pull off the effect of the genuine because the rep part is insufficient. I don't like the idea of modding a watch for the sake of modding it, on the basis that it's still a rep at the end of the day. I have no interest in installing a gen rolex movement on that basis. I know that there are situations like this that arise with the high end reps of Panerai, as well. There was a thread talking about a 112e that was modded with Jimmy Fu and palp parts (and some gen parts), and it was going for $1000. I thought that the gen went for around $4000 used, but maybe I'm wrong... but paying that much when the gen is a sub-$5000 watch seems to be flirting with the type of irrationality that I'm talking about. The rolex bracelet strikes me as a borderline case. It does impact aesthetically on the appearance of the watch, and qualifies on that basis- but isn't a focal point part that justifies that expenditure like the dial. There are some interesting potential solutions in the form of a high quality rep bracelet, gen endlinks, and a gen clasp. The nice thing about having a franken with gen parts is that the gen parts are actually quite stable in the marketplace, in terms of value. If anything, they actually increase if they're vintage parts in good condition. That goes into the 'pros' column, because it's way easier and more secure to have the ability to sell genuine parts in the marketplace. I'm sure others have ran into this type of problem, where you're weighing the pros/cons of putting a disproportionate amount of $$ into a single watch in your collection, and debating the merits of that decision. What is the guiding philosophy used for these types of decisions?

I knew this one was in the pipeline, and initially had thought I'd buy one. After I gave it some thought and cruised some of the gen forums, I decided against it. The design is cool, but is more of a novelty than a revolution in aesthetics.

Freddy, thanks for the explanation of some of the differences you've encountered between the re-dials and the gens. I've got a dial that was done by the guy at classicwatchparts (Ken?) and a genuine dial, and have until sometime late this morning a MBW dial with which to compare. This is a bad shot with which to judge fonts and such, but I don't have many dial shots of the SD: The 'superlative chronometer' font might be off, as in too western, but I've seen two different matte triple-6 dials, the first looked like the conventional font, the second looked closer to the one on mine, although still less pronounced I think. I think you'd be happy with the stock dial- but in my mind it depends on whether you would do the aging and lume work on the rep dial. If you would, then I would keep the stock MBW. If you would source it out to someone like The Zigmeister, then I would really give strong consideration to a re-dial of this quality. When you look at the cost comparison, as long as you wouldn't need to do much to the dial (other than shave it down a bit for install) there isn't a whole lot of difference, and yet the difference in quality is significant. Personally, I would absolutely get the re-dial- having owned both gen, re-dials, and full out rep dials. I believe that's by far the best value and solution with these red dial vintages. I only recently got into the vintage rollies, and sometimes that naivety can be beneficial in some sense because you're not pre-conditioned about the flaws, etc.. with the various watches. The one thing I concluded relatively quickly was that the dial was the most significant part in being judged for authenticity for most people, and that the MBW dials are not the best. The thing is, the work that is done on these dials makes them every bit as impressive as the gen dial, when it comes to lume and age effects. I think that the great mod work done on them diverts attention away from the 'base' that's been worked on. It also depends on pet peeves. For me, the red print on the reps is not that convincing. With the DRSD, it's not that bad, because it's such a rare watch. With the red 1680 I feel it's relatively glaring.

What did you mean when you said that you weren't sure if you would replace the MBW dial for the NDtrading one? Because I would've assumed that the NDtrading dial would've been far better than the MBW dial. I am guessing I haven't been giving the MBW dials their proper respect. I think I have made the mistake on occasion of assuming that the reps of older dials like the DRSD should be similar to dials that were produced close to 20 years later...and as a result, assuming that the rep dials are of poor quality, when in reality they're accurate reflections of the earlier, less finished looking because they were made using older technology at the time, etc...

Do the feet-ectomy, I don't think it's worth it to spring for the c.1570 for a rep, even if it's got a nicer dial, etc...maybe with one of your faves, but to each his own. Hopefully there will be some new work done on a silver datewheel that would conceivably be available for the ETA's.... You'll be very happy to have the re-dial coming in...I'm encouraged that there's a movement in this direction, it seems. Especially with the reds, there's no other real alternative if you want a believable one...

Freddy, we're on the same page with regard to the dial issues of the MBW. It's ironic, because you have some true artists who are great at doing vintage lume work and aging the dial- and you end up with a tremendous looking dial. That's the thing- the age effects are awesome, but when you actually look at the dial closely, it has serious flaws. I don't think a lot of people are very concerned about the smaller imperfections....or they haven't seen a genuine dial or a re-dial of this quality. The patina of the genuine dials are hard to get right. If you look at the dial you linked to, the patina is really flat and doesn't show the type of macro level variation in texture that you see with the gens. You're right, that crown is too thin. I still think it's better than the MBW coronet, which is unrefined and looks poorly defined. It's hard to say because there is so much variation. I might like 'O' on this dial better than the one on the original dial in question. The 'Rolex' spacing on this seems wrong to me...too condensed together. The font below the 'Rolex' is wrong, as far as I can tell, but again, I could be wrong. The dial itself looks to me like a rep dial, rather than a good re-dial. It has the manufactured type of features of a generic dial finish/texture as well as the classic red replica colour/font that is used on all of the vintages...even though it's NDtrading. The red is sort of a blood-red put straight onto the black dial background. The gen red looks like a cherry red paint, and it looks almost like they do a layer of white as a base coat before the red gets applied. The bottom couple of lines look like the right font to me, but the spacing is questionable. If you get a chance to see a gen dial, and I'm assuming this applies to the older DRSD dials (which is not necessarily a fair assumption), but the quality of the print on the dials is really high. It's hard for the rep makers to get that right, as well as they might do some of the more tactile details like fonts and colours, but getting the fineness of detail that the genuines have is practically difficult...as I think Rolex intended it to be.

Interesting thread- it looks like the seller is straight up about his other dials being re-dials. At $200, the DRSD dial looks like his best offering after giving his red sub dials a quick glance. It's definitely way better than an MBW dial. The spacing of the swiss > 25 is better on this dial, as opposed to the MBW dial which hugs the index markers too closely. The "Rolex" is pretty well done to me...the 'x' is not drunken (another MBW flaw), and the E is done well, which is another difficult thing for the re-dialers and rep makers to do properly. Where it looks like it's still weak to me is the 'O' and the 'R', but I'm not an expert on this stuff. The 'O' is very hard to get right. The lower half fonts look good. What I notice with the gen dials is that the fonts have a crispness that the re-dials have a hard time getting right. They got the date window shape right. This is exactly the type of solution that I think we should start to look harder at. This dial is WAY better than the MBW dials. If we're willing to drop $100+ on gen endlinks for a bracelet, then why not spend $200 on the most significant single part of the watch? When you consider what people spend to have their MBW dials 'vintagized' anyways, it makes little sense to me why one wouldn't just go this route. I will consider adding another piece to my collection if dials like this can be found for a good price more consistently. It's the red dials that I've found they seem to have such a hard time with. If those started to get better, it would be hard to ignore the temptation to get one. Sort of like what Ptolomeo did with his red 1680 recently.

Great pics... If I were psychic, I might presume that we will see a new sub release that could be worthy of starting a new sub collection around. I want to find the best possible rep bracelet...I'm between the new MBW hollow mid link, the noob bracelet, and the SSD bracelet. Homer supposedly can get some good rep bracelets too. I've seen this one coming up quite a bit. I think there needs to be some work done on bracelets.

I'm in the same boat- I'm after a high quality rep bracelet. I've already got the gen endlinks...want one of the newer MBW hollow midlink bracelets.

This type of story is why with Rolex reps, I like to go have fewer pieces that are modded with gen parts. It's a little pricey, but I think there's an element of assuredness or confidence in knowing that the watch is a franken. The idea is this: If I were in your situation, and someone said something about one of my rollie's, I would put it right back on them, and ask them what was wrong with it. There's not much on the watch that is 'visible' and significant that isn't gen, so if you know the composition of the watch, then you can essentially counter with a factual response. If the dial looks wrong, well, it's a genuine vintage dial. It really is the only way I personally feel comfortable wearing rolex reps. Even the modded reps themselves are somewhat expensive, thus keeping them relatively protected from the average rep buyer.