mezzanine

This thread inspired me to take a few more pics of my own, to add the review that Ptolomeo included in his compendium of all things 1680. I can't stop staring at this watch- it's so perfect ergonomically and aesthetically with the gen dial and parts:

By-Tor, it's funny, cause I was thinking about that comment, and I realized that these are new to us, rather than new to the community, and that perhaps there's something of an anti-climactic feeling as a poster when something as 'new' and 'surprising' as these watches seem to the owner bumps up against that realization. It's a little different for me, in terms of my experience, because most of my other rep purchases have been relatively newly released super-reps, which usually generate a fair amount of interest due to their novelty in the market. Especially in my case, where both of my watches came from other members already completed (mostly). Even then, I still went on a journey in terms of the time involved- I basically got totally prepped to mod two MBK's of my own, loaded up on parts, and then decided it just made more sense to buy them already completed. When you're receiving a used watch, it's a strange feeling, in the sense that the 'newness' is totally unperturbed by the fact it's been previously owned. Ptolomeo, I'm not sure what type of deal I could get...I'm kind of in the habit of just watching now a couple of sources, and if I was to cross a reasonable deal, I'd pull the trigger on a gen bezel. I keep my eyes open for a good red sub re-dial, and I would probably embark on another project....can't do it with the MBW dials...

Just so you know, you're the one I hold responsible for my inevitable bezel upgrade. - you can help me come up with how to get the package in the door without her awareness... I love your watch. I came sooo close to doing exactly what you did, by going with a red sub with a much better dial. If I go with another one, then I'm pretty sure it would be this or the Explorer II, and I've heard the Explorers are bloody expensive.

This thread is something of a celebration for vintage rolex collectors- I always enjoy learning about how others came to value these watches personally, as it's different for all of us...and yet in each story there is that same element of magic that unifies those that go on the mod journey. It's funny, because I was just thinking about how there isn't enough enthusiasm for some of these pieces- like Ptolomeo's sub update thread and the amazing 1665 that was reviewed just now on the board. But I am quite sure that the enthusiasm is genuine for the owners. The process of putting one of these together is something of a transformative experience, learning about the construction of the vintage genuines, and making decisions about the relative value of gen parts in doing mods. It's a more thorough and immersive experience in owning a watch, if you ask me. More interesting, and requiring more knowledge about the genuine rolex market than is required of other rep brands, and as a result, closer to the 'experience' of being a gen owner. Only in the sense that most of your parts are coming from genuine pieces with a unique history. The reps have the unique characteristic of often being a mismatch of parts from different watches or sources, which combine to give them their appropriate name: Franken. I actually ended up talking with an overly friendly guy who sold me one of my gen inserts and endlinks on the phone, not necessarily expected, but some interesting history. It's that type of history that gives them their character- the moderns have little appeal to me for exactly that reason. Anyways, an amazing review, and a great example of one of the most legendary watches of all time. I almost picked up a re-dialed red sub dial the other day, but decided against it...I think they're called red watches cause they get into your blood.

That watch is amazing...if I'm correct about it's origin, I lusted over it myself personally. It is hard for me to see the gen bezel, as it reminds me of the difference between the rep and gen crowns- the genuine has a crisper, deeper cut to the teeth. Maybe...just maybe, I'll go for a gen bezel, without the insert for one of my vintages to see how it works. A really good re-dial can be damn near as good as the genuine. This is where I'm curious, is the vietnamese dial a complete replica, like the MBW? Or is it a re-dial? I've got what I believe to be a re-dial from classicwatchparts from ken or whoever does them there- and it's very well done. I can't tell if it's a rep, but I'm not an expert on this stuff. This dial looks very good. With something like the comex, it's got to be a rep dial all the way. I suspect mine could be a rep, as why would it make sense to do a re-dial on a genuine base?

Very nice! I remember when you were in your parts assembling phase...it's worked out very well. Are you convinced that the insert is genuine? I find that the insert is probably the most underrated upgrade...and if I remember correctly, you bought an entirely new bezel assembly. I've considered upgrading the bezel, as the teeth on the gens seem better cut and defined.. I'm guessing you ended up using the aftermarket dial you picked up? I've also found that replacing the rep dial with a good aftermarket or gen is another very worthwhile upgrade.

Very nice, Stephane! If I were going to go for a gen modern rolex, it would probably be the Explorer II. I actually just saw a vintage bezel for an Explorer II going for 2500, so the vintages are not cheap... I'd love to get a gen bezel for my vintages- I'm not sure the teeth are cut as sharp on the MBW bezels...haven't been able to determine that. The difference you've described between the gen and rep bracelets are almost cause enough to upgrade to gen...the pics really capture some of the finishing differences.

Nice work, By-Tor. I can tell by looking at your collection that you're in the 'mature' phase of collecting. I like the fact that you're happy with under 10 watches- that's been my most recent discovery, realizing that I don't need 20 watches as part of my collection to be happy. A lot of it comes down to knowing yourself, and learning what you like. I had to go through quite a few watches before I learned my own tastes, and that can be an expensive process. I'm still glad to have had a full exposure to the rep world, but now that I'm settled, you couldn't 'make' me go crazy on a watch-buying frenzy...whereas before, you wouldn't have been able to stop it! If MBK were to come out with a vintage 1675, I would be a happy guy...but my Rolex collection is complete as it is now.

I buy based on my perceived value of the rep, not only as a convincing copy of the original, but in terms of being actual watches. I'd rather have a few really good watches that get reasonable wrist time, then a bunch of random watches that are really good copies of watches I probably would not otherwise choose if I were going for a gen. Another big factor for me is the price of the gen. I just sold my SFSO that, whille a beautiful watch, I could the gen watch if I wanted due to the price. For the most part, my reps are of $10,000 watches. My magic number is 5. This allows me to have two sports chronographs- a ceramic/SS HBB and a MBK AP ROO to satisfy my passion for Genta inspired chronos. This allows me to have two vintage Rolex's- a SeaDweller and a Submariner, for daily beater duty- these are fully modded pieces and have genuine dials. The coolest thing available to us is the MBK rollies ability to take gen parts, IMO. They're relatively well-guarded from even the more ambitious collectors often because of their price, which is a good thing- but that says nothing about their value. I consider the ability to have a genuine watch, minus the case and movement, for 10% of the cost of the real thing to be a good value. I don't even like the modern Rolex's. But the vintages are something else entirely. The last spot is for my Pam. I give him his own category in my collection. No explanation should be needed. The idea with my collection ideal is to get the 'essentials'.

My vote is for double-AR. As has been mentioned, this is a mod that I would want done to my watch anyways- at some point it's more about your own personal preference. Gen owners get that- and considering that double-AR is an 'objective' improvement by many standards, I feel that as time goes on, the level of acceptance of AR on watches that might not have them originally is going to become greater.

I was in touch with The Zigmeister about getting an Ubi datewheel installed on my 1680, as I have on installed on my SeaDweller, and it makes a HUGE difference. The problem is that The Zigmeister said he doesn't install them anymore because they're too thick, and therefore requires him to have to do a lot of mods to get it to fit, and the mods necessary to get it to fit can be problematic to the watch. I started thinking about it, and realized that the 1665 case being thicker than the 1680 (which is supposedly really a copy of a 5513), it probably isn't an issue for the dwellers to install the datewheel considering the extra room. I'm not sure I remember seeing a modded MBK 1680 with an ubi datewheel, come to think of it.... Anyways, I'm disappointed...as the datewheel change is highly underrated, once you actually see the difference.... I guess if I had to choose, I'd rather have it on my SeaDweller.

Great work! If you're taking recommendations, I'll recommend you invest in a genuine insert. There's something about them that's hard to describe- when the light hits the insert, it gives off a matte charcoal type of sheen, and I believe it is because it has different physical properties than the aftermarket inserts that it adds so much to the appearance of the watch. Am I crazy? It's possible, but when I swapped out the aftermarket insert on my SD for a gen from a vintage red sub, it completely 'made' the watch. It looks like you could take off a little from the upper crown guard's outside edge...but that might just be the photo angle. Also, if you get a chance to add some revel nightcolor to the dial/hand markers, you'll be good to go...

I had the thought that the 'scare' of the shortage of ETA's was being hyperinflated in the market. I still think there is a warranted price increase, but the idea that there would all of a sudden be this vacuum never seemed truly plausible.

For me, most moderns I would give a quick wrist glance to, but determining their authenticity isn't that easy. If you're talking about a 1000 dollar modded vintage, I'd argue that one of those is much more convincing, and also 'significant'. If someone wants a fake 16610, go for it... they all look pretty good to me. Even then, the noob has a great dial, but I wasn't impressed with the rehaut- but of course that's a detail that isn't relevant for most. I don't personally like the watch a whole bunch, and even when I've seen gens in person, it isn't like "wow, that's a gen modern sub". If I saw someone wearing a vintage red sub, my reaction would be different, and I would be able to spot it for a rep vs. authentic pretty quick, if it had a rep dial. Genuine inserts are hugely underrated in adding to the gen look of the watch, as well as a gen crown. I truly believe once The Zigmeister gets through my CG's and datewheel, my 1680 would require you to have to crack the caseback to tell it wasn't gen. The vintages just seem about 100X more distinctive and with more character. Not putting down the moderns, I just like the fact that you can't really fake the vintages well without dropping some cash- it's kind of an insulator against too much saturation. I can spot gen parts, at least vintage ones, pretty quick. One other point- the thing that seems to get lost with some of the expensive rep talk is that a lot of these watches that are modded with gen parts hold their value much better than other reps. That makes them less silly, and the gen parts are exactly what makes a watch look gen. If all the visibly significant parts are gen, then it appears gen. It sounds like stating a fact, but somehow it gets lost....

Trust me, I have, and I would imagine that the two AR crystals in question would be about as far apart on the spectrum as possible. The ultimate BCE AR is the poorest quality AR of any of the super-reps I've seen with double AR. Frank, I'm very tempted to pick up a 3717 for this run...I've resisted this watch longer than I'd thought possible....

I'm in for 2 crystals, and I'm going to send them off to you Rob, if that's cool. I'm also going to send my precious vintage rollies for some other work. I'm going to be down to my HBB!

That is indeed very exciting stuff! Congrats, Chieftang- that's an accomplishment to be proud of...I don't know if there's anything more advanced out there...? I'm down for 2 crystals for the january run. I could potentially do one crystal (my MBK AP ROO) with this coating, and get the Pam done with K222 coating to do a comparison review. The only reason I'd consider doing that, is I believe K222 has someone who will strip the AR free of charge, and my Pam is single-side coated.

I wish I had the funds to get in on this- and would encourage anyone on the fence to jump on-board. Ah, the feel of winding an ETA 7750, there's nothing quite like it when all you're used to is the asian copy. I've got an MBK AP ROO that completely warrants a swiss movement- but this is a bad time for me, $$ wise, as I'm sure it is for many post-christmas.

Very nice... I've held off on getting a 3717, but it's growing on me. I especially like the idea of Jakub's double-AR on one, as I agree about how much it can improve the appearance of the watch. A 3717 would fit in pretty well with my collection, in terms of what I have left to fill in terms of niche's.

Finishing the year out with the same watch that's been glued to my wrist since it's arrival, a vintage MBK 1680 modded with the following: genuine '78 Rolex 1680 white dial gen 501 endlinks gen vintage NOS thick font insert/pearl gen vintage crown/tube gen T-127 crystal slow beat ETA 2846 gen springbars, drilled lugs Once I can get the CG's modded and my Ubi datewheel installed, it should be good to go.... So then I decided I wanted to know what I'd loook like if I'd been the unfortunate people who'd been Hannibal Lecter's "Red Dragon" victims. Because of this fascination, I decided to open up the paintbrush, and got a feel for how I'd look if I'd been murdered while eating a steak at a restaurant wearing a 1680:

I agree with you about the significance of the dial- no doubt about it. When I got the chance to compare a really good re-dial to my MBK dials, I was very disappointed. I was surprised at how much difference there was...and not just in terms of fonts being correct, etc... but in the overall quality of the gen and very good re-dials. Yeah, with the moderns (especially) you have to be sensitive to the value of going for heavy mods. The SSD is an example... For me, I had to think hard about the prospect of going with a couple of fully modded vintage pieces because of the possibility of getting a gen instead. The reality is that I could get a mid-range gen, maybe a used SFSO, a used Sinn or possibly PO even. There's something to be said for the appearance of the gens...but ultimately, I'd rather have a couple of reps with most of their value tied up in gen parts, that, while it would suck to have to do it, could be re-sold at some point. That's one of the things I realized about having a significant amount of money tied up in reps, about six months ago. I had let my collecting get a little crazy, and had too many pieces. Also, you're 100% correct that for the vast majority of reps there is a diminishing value to the watches we own over time, due to their nature, and the nature of the rep industry, always cranking out new and better reps like new and better Ipods, etc... That's why I decided that if I was going to collect for the longer-term, it'd be nice to have as much of my $$ in pieces that would be unlikely to decrease in value over time. Enter the HBB with 'genuine' ceramic bezel (the bezel is worth the new cost of the watch- doesn't take an arbitrage wiz to figure this one out), and the vintage MBK rollies. One of the nice things about them is that they really do get close to the fit and finish of the genuine article- and as I look down at my 1680 right now, almost everything significant to the appearance of the watch is genuine- vintage NOS at that! The point being that the parts alone are worth more than I'd likely be able to get here for the watch, itself...due to the lack of educated buyers who are aware of the cost of these parts, and the relatively limited market size. That's a nice benefit, considering the decline in the value of most reps over time. If you've got $5000 in reps, and there are probably more than a few folks that do, and you're going to hold onto them indefinitely, with many not seeing the outside of the watch box, you might be losing 25% of the value of the money you have tied up in that large collection per year in re-sale value. That's no joke. I just crunched some numbers, and I discovered that I've got 70% of the co$t of my 5 watch collection in watches/parts that are likely to increase in value over time. This way I can enjoy the hobby with some pieces I want to keep for the long-term, and that are more like 'watches' to me than reps. At the same time, as a young person without unlimited money to spend on replica watches, this way I can enjoy watches that I have no business wearing without having to worry about them depreciating at a high rate- considering the $$ invested. Anyways keeping with my other tangent, one of the areas I think the 1680/1665's might be a little weak is with their bezels...or more specifically, their bezel teeth. I'll have to take a closer look at some reviews before I make any claims, though. The teeth seem sharper on the gens. I've come pretty close to picking up a gen bezel a couple of times- but want to forgo any unnecessary mods. I'm not about modding a part for the sake of being able to call it gen, there has to be a rationale. The bezel insert is the most underrated and significant mod that can be done, IMO...but the bezel itself leaves me wondering...

Very interesting! Good work on the watch- the only issue is the lugs. I think you should consider trying to rebuild them a bit, aesthetically at least. I don't know how you'll do it, but it shouldn't be that hard if you were to use some sort of compound that could be shaped and later hardened and perhaps painted. The T19 looks good to me, but having a SeaDweller, the look would be kind of redundant. Also, sad as it is, the datewheel on the Rolex sub is a part of the image and classic appearance of the watch when people associate it in their minds. I'd recommend a genuine insert. I find that they're one of the most underrated mods you can make on your watch. The genuine faded inserts aren't really grey, they're more of a faded black. It's hard to describe.

Good review, Stephane. I'm not terribly into the modern rollies, but I've got some questions that might extend to the vintages. You said that the bracelet felt smoother and much better than the rep one. Could you elaborate a little bit? I might spring for a gen bracelet for my 1680 if it really makes a significant difference- as I'm going to replace the bracelet on it anyways. I'd been told that the gen bracelets weren't the best value, in terms of their appearance and presentation vs. their rep counterparts. I'm not surprised to hear about the dial observation. I have observed that the dials are a weakness of the MBK rollies. I think the moderns are a little better...but on the whole they fail to capture the feel of the genuine watch, IMO. The rep-to-gen price ratio is a factor for me. The SFSO is really well done, but for me, a $1500 watch isn't worth getting a rep of.... Freddy, I was surprised to see you say that any watch over 500 bucks should probably be gen, considering your collection of vintage daytonas. I'm not sure if that applies to the MBK rollies, too. I would say a fully modded MBK 1680 or 1665 looks really close to the original. Someone mentioned how price of reps won't likely hold their value. That's mostly true, except in the case of the above, where I could dismantle both watches and sell the gen parts in a rapidly appreciating rolex parts market. People have warned me that I couldn't re-sell my dials, as they've both been shaved down. I'm not so sure, as I saw one sold relatively recently- although it was discounted.

I'm not too psyched about much that's slated to be released, with the exception of the Zenith Defy Extreme and the Breitling Skyland. I don't know if this list encompasses the potential releases from MBK, does it? Because I think there might be some cool watches coming from Thailand. Maybe some cool new AP's, who knows....