mezzanine

Ubi, I've always wondered if you could elaborate on some of the differences between the gen and aftermarket inserts- I've thought that I have noticed some of the differences, but I'm not sure if I am correct, or whether I've just spent way too much time staring at inserts. For instance, one thing I associate with the gen inserts is that they have more dimension, in the sense that it looks like they've been hand painted. There's a depth to the black that doesn't seem to get picked up in the aftermarkets, and they seem to have a finish that is different, in the sense of being more 'matte' than what I associate with most aftermarkets. When light hits them, it reflects a matte grey at the point on the insert where the light hits. One thing I have no doubt about after I first received the insert currently on my SD, there's no substitute. I think it's the most underrated upgrade.

Very interesting...thanks Freddy, this kind of information is gold. I haven't been able to find them in searches, but I haven't got exhaustive yet with my focus.

Don't worry, I'm starting to get a feel for the market a bit, and I believe that we can do something similar again... That the thing....I think it may pay with the bracelets to look at the idea of collecting pieces (endlinks, bracelet, clasp) individually, and trying to come up with a gen bracelet from parts.... It kinda runs contrary to what Ubi had mentioned earlier, that the parts are often more expensive than the whole, but that's all I'm trying to do right now is swap one piece for another... I've potentially gone from having two sets of 580's to actually needing a set, if things materialize.

Thanks for the suggestions, Freddy- it looks like I've come up with a solution, though. I'm trading the extra set of 580 end links + $50 for a genuine 91350 clasp. Seem like a reasonable deal? This way I should be able to do some mixing and matching and come up with some franken bracelets for my two vintages. I have a pair of 501 endlinks on my 1680, and I'm thinking I'll use the gen 78360 bracelet with those, and use the gen flip-lock in place of the oyster clasp. With what's left over, I can put the 580's that came on the gen bracelet on the SeaDweller, keep the rep 91350 bracelet (which is good), and maybe swap the rep flip-lock for the gen oyster clasp. If I could find a cheap gen bracelet (bracelet only), then I could end up with two gen franken bracelets at a total cost to me of a little over $500 US. I'm not sure about swapping the nice rep flip-lock off of my SD bracelet for a gen oyster clasp, that while genuine, isn't actually correct for this piece.

alligoat, thanks for the heads-up... Ugh...I'm just about done chasing after some of these over-priced parts. I'm already feeling sorta on the fence about having spent what I already have on a bracelet. We'll see if something can be done for a clasp, but I'm not sure if I'm going to bend too far to try to make it happen- I'm deep in thought trying to remember if I've come across anyone selling clasps for reasonable prices in my travels...I think I might have an idea, but I'll have to do some digging to see if I can come up with the person's contact info.

Oli, if you've got an extra 91350 clasp kicking around, let me know.... Does anyone know what the value of a flip-lock clasp for a 1680 is? I might be able to get one....but I'm trying to figure out what an appropriate price is. Damn these parts...

I know that as someone who was on the hunt for parts for a while, it would be kinda annoying to see some reasonably priced GMT parts, etc... but if you want something for your vintage sub or seadweller, then get ready to pump up the premium for the popularity of those models. That's where I think the idea of the 78360 is an acceptable one from our vantage point.. I agree with you about some of the questionable aspects of spending so much on a rep, but at the same time, when I look at my modest collection, I can't help but wonder what type of re-sale value they'll have a couple of years from now. On the other hand, with the modded MBW's I've got, if the whole rep community was to go belly-up (god forbid!) tomorrow, I could sell most of the actual value of those watches in the used parts market at my leisure. Not only that, but the chances are with the market being the way it is, the value of these parts are going to go up, rather than down. It's for those reasons that I think that the MBW's with the ability to accept gen parts are the coolest thing in the rep world, because you can sort of participate in that in a more pure sense, if only because the premium for the serial # and movement are sacrificed in the interest of being able to actually afford the parts that make up the aesthetically significant elements of the watch.

This brings up an interesting point that I've observed in the used Rolex market- there are often big discrepencies between the cost of individual parts, and the relative cost of those parts on complete watches. It's the concept of arbitrage. If the same thing is worth more in one market than another, there's an opportunity for some people to profit if they can identify the direction of that difference. In this case, the parts market is crazy, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone could do very well parting out particular watches, if they were functioning along a different price model. I can think of a few examples off the top of my head where this is true... This also comes into play when modded rep owners are considering selling their watches. A lot of more casual potential buyers don't really understand that the parts are relatively stable in price, and that beyond a certain point it would be easier to just start taking the watch apart. I almost decided to do that with a pam I recently sold. The strap and crown were worth 2/3 of my asking price on the parts market.

I couldn't believe it. I'm tempted to link some ads to the forum, but I know that's not a good idea...suffice to say, some of the prices are truly shocking. I don't even know how one could possibly verify some of the stuff that commands huge premiums. The bracelet that I just picked up would probably fetch an average of $700 US in the used market. They're $1200 new through private sellers. You know the 585's you just mentioned? I did a quick search, and the only pair I could find, the seller is asking $600. Six hundred. The 580's are a steal at $450. I don't think he sold them, but even to see the prices posted is insanity. Any idea how much a gen flip-lock clasp would be on the used market nowadays? I'll do some hunting, but I guess that's next on the "to investigate further" list....

Ubi, your bracelet was the inspiration for my purchase- I thought that it was a little risky going for a bracelet that isn't standard for the subs, but the premium for the 91350 is too much for me as a rep collector. This is a good alternative, and other than the clasp, is pretty much the same thing. I'd be interested in getting a flip-lock clasp for the bracelet, but I'm not going to sweat it too much. It would be nice, but damn if I'm going to spend more than $50 US for one....which puts me out of contention. That's what I find myself doing with my part selection process- I'm less attuned to the market, and more in tune to what I'm willing to pay for a particular part. In some cases there just isn't any correspondence between my perception of acceptable value, and the corresponding prices in the used gen market.

The more that I've looked, the more I've realized that there are deals out there to be had, but you have to patient. At the same time, I've got to say that even within the last 12 months, it seems to me that the Rolex parts market has become even more expensive. Prices on bracelets, like the $450 that cib0rgman paid for his bracelet, were relatively common a year or two ago. Maybe I'm being cynical and impatient, but I'm not seeing the types of deals out there that some believe there is. I think that it effects certain parts more than others. For example, gen inserts are damn hard to find, and if you can find one for under $120, then I'd be really careful to be sure that it's the real thing. Personally, I don't understand the market for endlinks. I saw a set of new 580's sell for $600 recently. How does that make any sense whatsoever? I've seen vintage ones go for more than new ones, so my whole sense of their pricing and value is skewed... I came really close to buying a folded 9135 with 580's...I love those folded bracelets, but have heard that they're a little flimsy (more than typical for Rolex).

Thanks man, I thought of you when I mentioned that there have been a few of us that have been hoping to find a reasonably priced bracelet option for our MBW projects. You can bet that if I let this go, I'll let you know first and you can have it at my cost. I'm hoping that won't be the case, though! At least for the next little while.. I have been keeping an eye out, but at the same time have been thinking I probably would rather have a new rep instead, and even then I haven't seen them going for less than $600 complete and in good condition...which is simply more than I was willing to pay for a bracelet. In fact, I would've stopped even looking, except my fully modded 1680 has quite literally become my daily beater. There are some truly valuable lessons in the diffence between preconceptions about one's probable tastes, and the empirical process of experimenting with watches, so that your experience is the measure of how you should direct your resources. What I can't get over is how empircal the process of owning reps has been. I would never have guessed that a single watch would have that kind of pull. I think now that the euphoria of discovering reps has faded, I'm okay with only having three or four really exceptional pieces. That being said, this bracelet better be some real hot [censored]. I better be astounded at the difference between the gen and rep! Not necessarily, but I'm not about buying expensive gen parts for the sake of it, if it isn't really a big need in terms of the look of the watch.

You're 100% right- The only reason I decided to go with this, was because I'd noted that Ubi had gone with a franken 1680 bracelet that used a 78360 and I've had a devil of a time finding a reasonably priced 91350/580. I don't mind the wrong option in this case, only because as far as I've been able to learn, the only difference is the polished vs. brushed sides. I think I'll actually like the brushed sides. I don't think the 78360 is any thinner or different in actual size, but someone may know different...? Justasgood, you scored on that bracelet you were able to recondition. Nice job.

shhhhhh..... Don't spoil one of my last havens to a newb like Freddy! j/k

I may know who is selling the genuine 580's on VRF.... Honestly, as I was saying to Marty last night via PM, I don't know how much they're worth. I've seen the vintage ones going for absurd amounts recently, so I don't know what to think. I wasn't expecting on picking up this bracelet, but this popped up and I figured it looked like it was in pretty good condition. This is from the early '80's and would probably have been used on a GMT or Explorer. As a result, I'm in a situation where I've got to figure out what I'm going to do with my bracelets. I've got a pair of gen 501's on my 1680 currently and they are fitted to a rep rivet bracelet that's of good quality. I think the MBW cases are based on the 5513 case, so I'm not sure if the gen 580's will fit. Before people say "well MBW's can accept gen parts", I haven't personally seen a lot of 1680's here with 580 endlinks...it's usually 501's, and I seem to remember a few people mentioning the 580's didn't fit right and having to resort to other options. What I'm thinking is that I keep the 501's and use the 78360 bracelet. Then I could move the 580's that are currently on the 78360 to my SD which has rep endlinks still. The SD has a nice rep 91350 bracelet with a good clasp, but I need another link because it's still a little tight. I'm hoping I'll have an extra link that I can swap over from the 78360 if it's got some extra room left...polished sides be damned.

I know a few of us have been on the hunt for genuine rolex bracelets for our vintage projects. Today, I think I came up with my answer, but I wanted to ask some questions about whether I should do some further work to try to get the bracelet closer to perfection. I managed to pick this up for $375 shipped- a 78360 with 580 end links. I think the big question is whether it's worth it to spring for a 91350 flip lock clasp. I'm not sure whether it's worth it, but if there were a cheap gen option, I would probably go for it...the thing is, I'm not motivated to spend over $100 on a clasp when this is gen and functional. I don't think it's standard for the sub, but I don't think it's a horribly inconsistent choice either. Any thoughts are appreciated-

Marty, we need more than this! I always laugh when I see your 'footprints' in other places... Please give us more pics and tell us more about what's been going on with the watches!

Guys, this is a very serious issue that is being raised here. It's something I feel strongly about, as I have had a similar experience but have avoided saying anything about. It can really put someone off the hobby. For example, I'm a high-end audio geek, and I ordered 5 pieces of expensive audio eqiuptment last year. Four of the five items I purchased arrived broken. I love audio, but I've sold my set up as a result of the experience. It's fine to go and say that it's as simple as raising an issue with the seller, but the reality is that in most circumstances the seller is going to claim to have been unaware of the flaw or will claim it must've happened during shipping. I've done a lot of buying/selling over the last year or so here, and I would say that on average, probably half the reps I've acquired have come with undisclosed problems.

Nice- you're going to love the RG/ceramic. That's one watch that I haven't owned, but would like to get a hold of one day. Sounds like the watch you got from Jakub is a really good value for the money....

Very nice collection. There are a ton of people who are willing to post their "best watch of '07", but there aren't many people who have had most of the best recent watches. Keep in mind, not necessarily the best 'watches' in general...I can relate to your journey. The MBK's are a nice realm to discover, and you're onto the right idea with the vintage rollies. Not to be "that guy" or anything, but consider reading up about how the site itself is maintained, and the unique requirements of keeping this place going. You've got a great collection, and if you end up deciding to stick around and get more involved now that you've got the bug, being a 'member' makes it easier to trade or sell watches that are fading from interest. I've owned most of the same watches, and yet almost none of them exist in my current collection. Strange!

Gotta say, I think you made a mistake by going with the brushed ceramic. If it's the fake ceramic, then that's one thing...but I don't think that's your style, so I suspect that it's the real bezel, and in that case I think had you seen a real polished bezel in person before your purchase, you wouldn't have gone with the brushed. Don't get me wrong- I know everyone has their own tastes and is entitled to like whatever they want, I just think that by almost any standard the polished ceramic with the anti-reflective coated crystal is one of the more impressive combinations I've seen on any watch.

Great that there's been some discussion out of this- laz, your watch was a big part of my inspiration, so it seems fitting that they're similar in this type of comparison. In terms of the issue of the fonts on rolex inserts- I'd been under the same belief that Elprimerozen was, that the thicker font inserts look less authentic, given how popular they are. So when I got the watch, I asked whether it was gen, and got a response that it's identical to one member's gen '78... When I re-visited the sales listing for the 1680 I bought, the creator indicated that he'd been able to get a hold of some vintage parts. So the insert, as well as the crown are supposed to be actual era-appropriate vintage parts. I think I like the thinner fonts better on the sub. That being said, the real trick to figuring out if the inserts are gen is to put them under a light source. What I've noticed is that the gen inserts will reflect the light as a charcoal type of matted reflection as opposed to the flat black that you see with the aftermarkets. I also think that the gens are 'painted', in the sense that there is some dimensionality to the inserts colour that isn't there on reps. Another thing I've noticed about the dial I've got in my 1680, is if you look along the very outside where the dial meets the case, you'll see some rust creeping up and staining some of white index markers along the perimeter. I'm guessing this might be a result of having the dial shaved down...? It's funny how you don't notice certain things except through pictures, and this is one of those things for me. I'd noticed some rust below the 6 o'clock marker, but no where else. After seeing some macro type pics, I saw that the line of rust runs longer than I'd noticed initially. I actually liked the 'character' it added to the dial when I thought it was more minor, but now I'm slightly worried about it.

I'm 90% sure that they do, hopefully someone will know for sure....