mezzanine

Awesome collection. I'm intrigued by your collection and it makes me wonder where I'll end up in my own pursuit. I am not as intrigued by the idea of maxing out a vintage rollie collection, in terms of building up a number of vintage sub models, etc.. They're too expensive and too close in terms of their similar look for me to be able to rationalize. At the same time, I could see adding a DW daytona to complete my own mini-collection. I would love either a 1655 or a 1675, but they're not as readily available. The cool thing about the vintage GMT's is that they're the only remaining reasonable value in the vintage rolex world, IMO. That's why I've been trying to organize a group-buy for some vietnamese cases.

The most impressive HBB I've seen is the rose gold with polished ceramic. I think they refined the dial-print of the carbon fibre dials on that model. Definitely get the genuine ceramic. I can personally attest to that. I believe that the issue of the stickers on the rotor gets overblown, but that's just me. I don't get as concerned about parts of the watch that aren't visible to others. In terms of price, the HBB's with ceramic bezels are expensive. They're also the best reps that have been released in the last two years, and I made the statement about 8 months ago that I don't believe that the HBB will be 'topped' or beaten in terms of quality by any new releases in the next 18 months. I really do believe it represents a turning point in reps. I don't know if there's ever been a rep that has been able to claim the thrown for that length of time. Does that mean that it's worth the money being asked? Tough call. I wouldn't pay that much for one... Consider though that the bezel is genuine and worth $800 on it's own, even though it's unlikely you'd be able to sell it for that...

Interesting to me that people don't feel that Rolex is going to be accountable to their new designs because of their popularity. That might be true, but you guys are talking about these design changes as though they're just 'different' and not objectively poor designs. The difference between the new modern rollies and something like an updated Harley is that the new designs are largely crappy by any standard. It's not a matter of novelty needing some time to set in before it becomes accepted. At least that's not what I see happening. You can destroy a brand. It might sound like it would be impossible for a company with Rolex's history to put themselves in jeopardy, but if they keep releasing designs like these, we'll wait and see what happens.

Good point about the need to get the bracelet done as well, to achieve the full effect. I guess it makes sense that most people with an expensive gen would probably avoid messing around with the potential re-sale value of their watch.

Can you imagine someone doing this to a red 1680, as shown in the pics? Yikes...it's okay for reps, and I think it would look cool and neat, but to even consider this if you had a gen is downright scary and I wonder if the company who does it has been sued by those who later tried to sell their watch...

Interesting stuff, thanks for the great perspective on the relative merits Freddy. I checked out the phenomenon you were describing with the light refraction, and while subtle I think I understand the optics or geometry makes sense. I had a super dome on a DRSD that I couldn't identify as either gen or aftermarket after trying to enlist opinions, but the flattened under-surface to the top of the acrylic in the shape of a penny perhaps (?) made me wonder if the genuine had that same feature. CBR, good to have the reference, and I'm thinking if I decide to get a super dome, it will be a Clark as opposed to a genuine. Shawn, I read that the only way to conclusively make the determination is to do a pressure test. The gens not doing as well because of their age, I imagine. I guess Freddy's method would also work. I am tempted to pick up a Clark, but I am thinking I'm just good to leave the flat-top.

Thanks for the feedback guys. Freddy, your reviews of the Clark and the accompanying analysis you did was both thorough and sound. I would have completely given up trying to realistically understand the differences between the Clark and the gen if not for your side-by-side and the descriptions. Your comment about the degradation of the crystals over time is something I've read elsewhere. I've heard contrary reports- both sides agree that the super domes should not be subjected to water. Stephane, I've spent some time staring at your single red vs. your double red, trying to spot any differences, but I can't see anything in pics. I am guessing that there are the type of minor differences that Freddy's described, but I'm more concerned about the unique sparkle and clarity of the genuine crystals and whether the Clark can capture the level of quality that Rolex built into their acrylics. I reached that realization about the absurd lack of value in the genuine super domes today. There are still some available for the prices you guys probably paid for yours (not many), so I figured this might be the last chance to pick one up before things go crazy, like what Oli was talking about where people are paying $600 for these pieces of acrylic. That was part of the reasoning. The more I thought about it, though, the more I realized that there's a point of diminishing returns, and that the whole point of our reps is to try to avoid those types of money pits that are the downside of the genuine world if you're not careful. The funny thing is that I like the flat-top. The only thing was that I heard kingkitesurf or whoever say that the super dome totally transformed his watch, giving it a much larger appearance. I'm trying to create as much 'contrast' or differences between my SD and sub- I'm sure you're trying to do the same with yours, different bracelets styles, etc... just so that you have a reason to wear one over the other, other than the writing on the dial. Both the flat-top and the 127 are flat top crystals (although I guess the 39 isn't technically), and I'd wondered whether the super dome would add to their different looks.

Yeah, I've been thinking about this morning, and I think that's what I'm going to do. I'm not in any rush, I just figured the gen superdomes were escalating at such a rate that if I didn't buy one now, I probably never would. Even though I think the super dome is probably the preferred tropic, I don't think it's necessary on my transitional sea dweller, which is even more 'recent' than the standard Great White.

I am in a dilemma. I was thinking I was going to go after a genuine super dome to add to my Sea Dweller as a finishing touch. The problem is that these things are even more expensive and rare than inserts. I've also read that the genuine super domes are prone to structural weakness within the crystal due to the age and effects of moisture, etc... Right now I have a genuine T-39 flat-top on my 1665. On one level, it strikes me as dumb to switch out a genuine crystal for a fake one. Not only that, but considering I have a 'white' Sea Dweller, the flat-top is probably more 'appropriate'. At the same time, I've read enough positive things about the Clark aftermarket super domes, that I figured I would try to get some feedback about what other people would do if faced with a similar choice. Am I better to wait on a genuine super dome, and just enjoy the flat-top until an opportunity presents itself (or just keep the flat-top)? Or should I go for the Clark and get the look of the superdome without worrying about the fact it's not genuine?

I came around near the same time that Chronus did, and it's shocking how much the business of replica watches has changed over that relatively short period of time. I brought this topic up sometime around the summer. At the time, I perceived the sales board as the primary incentive for people to donate to the site, and that the benefit of membership was that you could price gouge newbs. I feel that in this hobby there is an almost pyramid-like aspect to the hierarchy of information. The newbs basically subsidize the vets by virtue of their ignorance and their lack of understanding of the replica game. They come here and think that if someone is a veteran and is credible, that they can avoid making their own valuation of the watch because the other person is an expert and will have applied their own more experienced judgment. That's why when someone mentioned how "way back when" the prices weren't talked about publically- otherwise the newbs wouldn't be subsidizing those that have been around and developed contacts/relationships. I think it would be easy to assume that I'm placing blame, or that I'm suggesting that this perception is valid. That's not the case. In ANY market, the dumb money is going to change hands to the smart money. Not just the rep market. Insiders and those with knowledge about the market and connections are going to snap up pieces that are discounted from their intrinsic worth. At the same time, I haven't been able to log into the darkside for a while now, but when I would watch their sales section, there was generally better value and volume. The phenomenon didn't seem as bad to me there- and that might be in part because the mods are watching for it, but my point is that it's not 'inherent' to the replica game, as it's not as bad there as it is here (with regard to this specific issue).

I am always open to ideas! I've been wrestling with this upgrade decision for a while now. I've gone back and forth a couple of times, but with the way the prices on the superdomes have been going, I figure this is my last chance before they're going to be unobtainable without dropping over $500, and that is just absurd.

I actually like the turn that things have taken with Rolex. I don't like modern rollies, so the appeal of the vintages is only heightened by this development. The more contrast there is between the classic pieces and this modern crap, the more value that the 'timeless' rolex pieces will have in the eyes of buyers and collectors. I never liked the modern rollies even before this latest debauchery. They seem to me like they were a company who couldn't change their designs because of their success. They got out of touch with the market as a result, and once the market had changed and they needed to update things, they were at a loss because they've been complacent with updates to their watch line-up. I think the other major brands have done a much better job of staying contemporary and relevant because they had to. Rolex didn't have to, and what we're learning is that they've really lost touch as a result. Even if you like the classic look of rolex, you have to admit that brands like IWC and Breitling and Omega would never release such an abomination. They couldn't afford to. I think that Rolex has become irrelevant in the modern watch world. I wouldn't dream of getting a modern rollie before one of the cooler modern watches from other brands. The reason I like their vintage pieces is because it represents the boom and golden age of the mechanical watch as a status symbol and piece of personally relevant engineering. Now, with the information age, many young people have never even owned a watch- they just look at their cell phone. That's why I find the other brands more interesting for modern watches- they're still at least pushing the envelope in terms of design (HBB) or function (Cousteau Divers). They are trying to stay relevant by introducing new technology and designs, and are being driven by much greater pressure to come up with a success than Rolex, who haven't really needed to market themselves for the last fifty years.

I might have a genuine flat top for sale. I'm contemplating an upgrade to the superdome for my sea dweller. I am having a hard time trying to decide whether it would be worth it. The Clark's are $60 and supposedly very similar to the gen. It wouldn't make sense to add a rep part in place of a genuine, especially considering the flat top is more 'accurate' for my watch anyways. I could justify it more easily if I was putting the money from the flat top towards the superdome...

Wow, so much for the idea that the Yachtmaster II was just an ugly duckling. I wonder what is going on within the Rolex hierarchy that they could be so out of touch.

You're right that the 585's would be 'most' correct, but the 580's are acceptable as well. I've found that the 501's fit the 1680 case better than the 580's I've tried, but that just could be co-incidence.

This is one of the classic discussions. I think that there are some ways around this type of thing. For example, most people only know about Rolex. I don't think there is any way to realistically distinguish most of the modern rollies from their replica counterparts in quick and reliable way. That means that if you're wearing a modern rolex, not only are you more likely to be called on it because it's a rolex, but there aren't any real aesthetic differences that would either prove or disprove it's authenticity to the average person. Someone mentioned the vintage rollies, and I believe that there's more ambiguity with those, as they're not as commonly seen and are distinctive in styling to the moderns. Since they accept genuine parts, you can build up a nearly genuine watch around an aftermarket case and movement. If someone were to call me out on one of my vintage rollies, then the burden is on them to offer some sort of reasoning. If you have the confidence to be able to put the pressure back on them, in terms of getting them to elaborate and contradict themselves, you can deal with those types of exchanges without necessarily even addressing the autheticity of the watch. Chances are, if the person points out something visible, that 'visible' part is genuine. So there's a bit of a grey area... I know some people would just say "a rep is a rep" and that the frankens are just dressed up reps. In principle, the watch is officially a rep. In reality, it isn't. If there's nothing that can be seen or identified as being inauthentic, then it's not fake. Reality is much more subjective than the black/white that this question seems to want to make it out to be.

I'd say Repaustria's 1655 Explorer would go in the category of 'jealousy pieces'. Probably Freddy's Paul Newman Daytona. The old Omega SMP '007' with decorated movement would be a classic, as the SMP is a favourite of mine and the rep has achieved legendary status. I'd like to get a hold of a highly modded IWC 3717...that's a currently available watch that I'd like, but probably wouldn't put the money into to be able to get it into proper shape. The HBB's with the swiss movement and chrono module- that would take the best produced rep (IMO) and combine it with a legendary movement that would bring the engine up to the quality of the case/bezel.

It's concerning if they're the same pics, as I know the adventure that you went through with your Tudor....

Here is a picture of the tudor being referred to by madmac69:

I think you guys are crazy that would go after a vietnamese 1665 case, given that we can get pretty good ones from MBK. I am psyched about the idea of going after a GMT. The parts for these seem more readily available in the used market. They're cheaper, too. I am not too optimistic, as it seems like there would be a lot of work in actually tracking down a supplier. Maybe Phong has the market on lock-down. I doubt it, but it wouldn't surprise me if they're difficult to obtain considering how hard the MBW's are, and they're available through retail channels. My opinion of the NDtrading dials is a little different than Freddy's, although I would say that he's a much more qualified person to be giving suggestions on this. My feeling is that even if the NDtrading dials are less accurate than the MBW dials, the quality of the dials themselves are much better. Ultimately that's what's more important to me than minor accuracy issues- the overall quality of the dial in terms of texture, dial print quality, etc..

Switched up watches to my 1680-

The biggest thing that often doesn't get discussed, and yet is so relevant, is that Rolex's are some of the most comfortable watches going. I would love to be able to say that wearing my HBB everyday was a realistic option, or a uPO or MBW AP ROO, but the reality is that my 1680 on a folded bracelet is definitely my most comfortable watch, followed by my 1665 on a hollow-mid link 93150 genuine bracelet. The only watches I could fall asleep with them on my wrist. I hate having watches on when I sleep, with the exception of those two.

Incredible vintage collection, Stephane. I have realized that with modded pieces, when they come back from being on a journey, it's very much like getting a new watch. That single red is freaking amazing, and deserves to be on a genuine bracelet, if it isn't already. I'd go with a folded bracelet, and a 7836 to make it at least affordable. The effect of the bracelet is significant, because you get the unique sheen of the Rolex steel, which adds to the general credibility and look of the watch. I don't know if the MBW cases are the same type of steel, but I doubt it, and I notice that from far away perhaps the biggest tell on these watches can be the appearance of the steel- the genuine has an almost yellowish sheen, am I crazy? But it's one of the thngs, along with the acrylic, that I really like about the look of the vintages. They strike you completely differently than a modern rollie. They look like they are from a different time, and that is the immediate impression and character they give off in their older styling. They appear more modular, heavy duty in terms of the lines and angles of the case (more sharp angles), etc.., the dial looks clearer because of the acrylic crystal, the dimensions of the crystal above the bezel add to the more tool-watch appearance vs. the newer ones. They look like vintage watches, and are a testament to the cultural peak of the mechanical watch. It's amazing how well the Rolex parts have held up over time. I know that will be very expensive, but with that bezel already, I believe a genuine bracelet is worth it. If I was going to get a red 1665, I'd probably go balls to the walls and go for a highly aged project like you've done here. Why not? If you're going to wear a double red, why not a single? I love the work done on the dial on all of them. As I look at my own 1665 and see the flat top 3 and the thicker correct fonts of the Ubi datewheel, I remember how grateful I am that my 1665 has one...what a huge mod that makes using an ETA less damning. This would be my ultimate vintage collection. Instead of having the number of pieces, I've had to try to narrow in on an example of each of the 1680 and 1665, and try to put extra attention into each. I wish that there were different models that took genuine parts. A vintage GMT seems like such a gimme, and the parts could be sourced without that much trouble (genuine). That's why I wonder what a vietnamese GMT case would cost if we were to organize a group buy. There are some amazing vintage inserts available- faded pink/light blue. Parts are not that expensive. I'm less motivated to go after different variants in the same line, not because I wouldn't enjoy it, but because of cost. I'd love to be able to add either a GMT or McQueen, but I'm already too invested in my two watches to consider being able to justify going much further. I enjoy the fact that these can be modded indefinitely. I'm still looking to get a superdome for the 1665 a genuine bezel assembly for the 1680, but beyond that, a helium valve mod is in order and that's about it. What's crazy is that I can spend the next few months (easily) trying to find those parts at a reasonable cost and getting the work done. They're good in the sense that you can always be doing something more and add value to the watch as well as keep yourself occupied in this hobby that tends to make one hyper-active and correspondingly poor.

Wow, as good as gen, dluddy... That's what I was saying in another thread: what is the honest-to-god difference between these newer reps that have better AR than the gens and a better lume job?

Excellent review on the comparison between the genuine and rep IWC Ingy, Andy. Take a look at the review if you haven't had the chance!