Devedander

I do get the feeling that some people are riding Paul for his past more than for his present... it's easy and tempting to hold grudges, and it's important to not let people forget the past, lest it repeat, but it's also important to consider what's really happening... I mean even if Paul was a straight crook before, if he is providing good fast service now for decent stuff it's only fair to say so. I see some people having issues, but accounting for the fact that people who are unhappy tend to be more vocal than those who are happy it seems like Pauls is living up very much to his walmart namesake... 90% of the time things go fine. You get what you want at the price listed. 10% of the time something goes wrong, and then you start to get into possible trouble So far I have seen some posts where people are happy with pauls service (he did them right in the end) and sometimes I see people say they have been shafted and ignored for months (which I believe but the whole story may not be getting told - none of the dealers likes getting a nasty email from an impatient buyer, heck I would hate to see what TTK does to someone who pulls that on him, and some of those who claim Paul is ignoring them sound like they may well be in that group). In all fairness when any other dealer takes weeks or months to respond/deliver it's always "relax, it's fine, they have a life, maybe it's a holiday, if you are impatient you need to not be here" etc. Same thing with Paul brings about no such statements despite the fact that there really isn't a shortage of people happy with their dealings with Paul. In fact most of what I see relating to him is that his items get there FAST! It seems everyone EXPECTS other dealers to take weeks or months and that's just how it is and that's ok. But no one seems to credit Paul with (apparently) delivering in about a week for a lot of his orders... I don't know, I am still new, but I have read a lot, especially dealer reviews, and it seems like Paul is getting the red headed stepchild treatment... It almost seems like I could take a slightly complicated transaction, slap Pauls name on it and everyone would lambast him. But take that exact same statement, edit Paul out and put Josh and everyone would be defending him and ragging on the buyer, not the dealer. In essence not really being fair to the situation and letting partiality to a dealer cloud the facts... which I don't think anyone wants as this site is supposed to be about giving the straight skinny so everyone can get the best deal, not giving hand service to a certain dealer. I mean one has to look only as far as Pugwash (I don't mean offense by this Pug, I respect and appreciate your contributions to the forum) but as a very vocal Paul watchdog he hasn't even bought aything from Paul... that doesn't really seem fair... I am fully aware that I was not here for his past antics, but it hardly seems valuable to keep him in the past if he is reformed... And from what I can see the cost/return level for Pauls stuff seems to be about on par. Pay $50-100 more to get top notch service from Josh or some of the others, pay cut rate prices to get ok service from Paul. That doesn't seem at all unfair or bad... it just seems like a valid choice you can make. Very much the same you make when you choose Macy's or Walmart...

I think maybe it's best if people don't pay beforehand because it makes keeping track of things more complicated (ie 15 people pre pay to eddie lee off the list, then the list gets split and eddie gets way more orders and jay gets shafted etc). This may not be the case but I don't see any reason to be jumping the gun either way.

Well if 2nd makes The Zigmeister approval then that's a good start, and if the statement above about the 3rd is true then it sounds like a great thing to shoot for. And I understand the "gen" thing is really just marking the order in which they came, not necessarily a progression of improvements on from the same source.

Yes considering all the confusion can we please have details ironed out so that everyone gets the same treatment (minus the $6 difference) as I personally don't want to be in the group (or even have there be a group) of people who find that they were on the short end of things... I mean just the fact that EL can get them (and thus pass them on cheaper) makes me think they are at least comming from different places originally... BTW assuming all else is equal please put me on Jays list... I have gotten confirmation that I can add another watch for no additional shipping so it makes it worthwhile for me assuming again all else is equal.

It's pretty... no my style (don't like that particular band anyway) but it's quite impressive... where abouts did you come across it?

So did anyone buy one of these from one of our dealers? It's a bit out of my price range, but if they are the 3rd gens for sure it might be something to start a kitty for...

I don't think anyone said you are an [censored] and stupid is temporary... the only question is how obvious it is to others during the interim period You can let this whole thing get under your skin or you can learn from it, toughen up and move on. Everyone has had a noob moment somewhere, and what defines them is how they handle it. Don't get all bitter and get your panties in a bunch, and let this be a lesson (since future forums and internet and even social interaction off the internet are all probably in your fugure) on how to conduct yourself later. I understand you proably didn't mean it this way, but what it comes off as when someone asks a very simple noobish question like this is: I think relative to my time, your time is worthless enough that I shouldn't have to do one iota of mental leg work to answer my simple questions, and the collective you out there should do it for me. Try walking into a gym and asking the resident muscle heads "So how do I work these weight machines" without bothering to look if they have instructions labled right on them. Try walking into a car enthusiasts club and asking "So how do you work a keyless entry?" without ever having rad the manual. These questions simply scream "I didn't even bother trying before I decided to try and get you to do it for me". It's the same feeling I get at my job when, standing right next to the sign that says "Bathroom" with a big arrow, someone wanders around the building, spots me, makes a bee line and asks "Where's the bathroom?". It just screams "My time is too valuable to look for myself, so you peeon, you tell me where it is". Laziness can be insulting in a very odd way, and whether you were intentionally or not (I doubt you really said "bah, I am not reading this, let someone else do it for me" but it feels that way from the other side nonetheless) this is where it got you. Toughen up, carry on, things will get better if you learn from your mistake.

4:00 starts/stops 2:00 resets is that how the real chrono works?

If that's what you say then that's how it is! Just for clarification, the pictures in his gallery that don't have numbers but aren't in the gen folder... those are just not available either?

Ouch... Anyway... I don't mean to insult but I did think it was kind of funny... both with Pauls link on how to work a chrono and Eddielee insisting that the sweep hand only moves when the chrono is engaged in his return policy... I mean I obviously wasn't born knowing how a chrono works but I don't ever remember being at all confused by it... I dunno... somehow humorous in the classic "noob" manner...

Best pickup line ever: You remind me of fast food, I want to take yout out; then eat you in my car. I hope that's not too out of line

Thanks for the pointer, any input is appreciated. The price is just a bit too high for me (I know it's better quality), maybe if I decide I really like the Daytona I will splurge on a really nice swiss movement and have it serviced and waterproofed, but as it is, the Daytona will probably only get occasional wear and as I said it's more to satisfy that annoying voice that wants a Daytona than anything else, so just like any othe time I am trying to appease an illogical desire I am trying to go cheap and get the job done A change in the IWC group buy may be making my decision for me to go with a silix watch...

That's hot!!! Lucky customs didn't seize it!

And just for clairification is Jay taking Paypal also and if so will it be a differnet price than pay by moneybookers? Yes as soon as I get a rep or two we should get together and meet up in SF! Maybe China town for some yummy Chinese food!

Again I am getting the (probably noob) jitters... are we sure we are all getting the same watches on both lists? Wouldn't like to find out half the people get a watch that's not as good as the other... all hand inspected and what not? That said I was looking at a watch or two on silix so maybe I can work out some kind of shipping deal with them... if so I would be willing to move to the other list (Jay is silix right?) I have emailed silix to ask if they can work something out.

I like the meteorite dial but I don't like the red hands and I am not sure about the rep meteorite dials... I am afraid they would just be gray or not right. I like gold and mop... always have felt it was classy. I am not really thinking the Daytona will be my end all of watches... I honestly don't think I can wear a watch often that doesn't have a date feature (I am wearing my $20 chinese Daytona now and I really do like the day of week and day of month dials...). That's why my heart is set on gold mop, it's going to be my dressup watch. Christmas party, wedding etc... where you want to look a little extra (where many people would bust out the solid gold with diamonds). I am now reconsidering the seconds at 9 vs seconds at 6... one side of me wants to buy the newest model (dug) but the other side says that since they did make a daytona seconds at 9 it's still somewhat accurate to have it there and it's cheaper and likely going to last longer... in all honesty, knowing myself and the grass is greener part of me I see myself getting the seconds at 9 right now, then in the next year (or sooner if it really eats me) getting a seconds at 6 of a slightly different style to cover my bases... Maybe even hope that something comes along that makes it possible to do sec at 6 with good subdial spacing and not prone to breakage... Gah... money like water... @Star I have pretty much chosen to not go with the swiss if I do seconds at 6 since it will probably be stressed all to hell and break anyway, but I would appreciate some comments as to what made you go that way all the same!

Hey we are almost neighbors! (I live about 50 miles away from SF) Being new to this whole rep thing this shakeup is giving me some stomach jitters but with all the good reviews of EL I am trusting that 27 forum members still in means all is likely to be ok. Not that it makes much difference but are these all potentially comming from different places/factories? Or is it the same whichever dealer ends up going through on it? Oh and being 100% Chinese lemme tell ya there is NO WAY you can avoid all the possible pitfalls of cultural offense... I am sorry king is not doing it anymore... not that I have any connection but I respect the effort our the dealers put into their work and I know how it is to work details out on something only to have it fall apart and end up with nothing for your trouble. Are you sure she isn't just away or busy for a little bit that she can't answer emails?

He mentioned something about being out of town for a few days so maybe that's it... I am thinking he will get back to you in a few days...

I belong to several other forums where paypal horror stories abound... Paypal seller protection? Totally worthless. Many stories of items sent deliver confirmation with tracking, signed for, even got emails from reciever that item was great and just what was expected. When the charge back comes and all evidence is given to paypal it inevitably ends up with "Paypal has examined the evidence and chosen to protect the buyer, the funds have been reveresed from your account". They charge you a butt load for features that are worthless, then they don't even give you the service you paid for when the time comes. Ultimate scam. BTW if you really want to protect yourself, open a seperate account at your bank specifically for paypal, dump funds from paypal, then dump funds from one account to another. Paypal can't touch em then. Big hassle but if you sell for over $1000 regularly well worth it.

I know it's not of much help right now but I might suggest implimenting a 3 day delay for says via paypal that are worth big $$$ both to protect you in case paypal reverses and so you can dump to your bank account and then unassociate it. Most people I hear horror stories from find out in less than 3 days that the funds have been reversed and if you unassociate your bank account paypal is screwed on the reversal... they will hold you in a negative balance but screw em. After that it's a pain to open a new paypal account but for the price of a gen omega I would go thorugh that hassle...

You may not be able to get a lot of those things, but those are more important when you are working on a new item. When you are just copying you can short cut many of those and still end up with a high end item. For instance you need a skilled watchsmith to create a new type of movement, you only need someone generally good to take it apart, figure out how it goes together and assemble some copied parts to match. I can make a circuit board that duplicates some one elses without anywhere near the engineering and creative knowledge they have. And to some extend you do build brand and image loyalty... look at Paul and look at Josh... I know they aren't manufacturers but somewhere it does tie together. And illegal doens't prevent top quality... if anything it makes it cheaper becuase again, you are not responsible for the majority of the expense that goes into a high quality item, you are responsible for the fabrication. I would guess that Rolex spends near as much or even more on advetising, R&D and legal fees a year than it does on parts and labor in it's factories. Iillegal methods come with their own costs but nothing near what the legit businesses have to endure. And if illegal was really so hard to pull off we wouldn't see fake watches comming from the same factories in the same spot for years... Iillegal can be tricky, but it can turn out top quality and sustain if done right...

Well that all makes sense but there still has to be something said for the scam sites that sell "Perfect Swiss Replica 100% accurate even your jewler can't tell" for over $1500. I mean honestly if they can sell those claims it shows the market is out there for those items at that price. That you and I woudn't pay for them is one thing, but if those sites are still around it means there are some sales to be made. And as for being a gen if it's perfect I am not so sure... if I steal every machine from Rolex, press out the exact parts and hire a top grade watchsmith to assemble my watch, isn't it exactly the same as a the gen but still not? I mean to be a gen Rolex has to make it, so I now have an a perfect replica. Perfect being no flaws, replica being that it is not made by the actual company and thus not genuine. The argument that they always want to leave room for another gen (like movies leaving room for another sequal) makes sounds logical at first but doesn't really make sense if you think about it. Becuase if they always want to leave room for an improvement, why do we see so many watches that don't recieve further improvements? I mean I guess someday something better could come out, but in all fairness I think there are quite a few watches that were never well repped and probably never will be because interest in them has wayned. It makes far more business sense to make a tiered market (similar to what exists out there for reps and almost everything else in the world) whereby people like womart carry the cheapo reps, and places like perfect clones carry the top notch reps (example, not necessarily exactly) as one market does not necessarily cannibalize the other. We have mums up there who wouldn't pay over $1k for a rep and we have rep buyers who own gens at 10x the cost but won't buy a rep becuause it's flawed. I can only imagine that many people (members of this forum included) would jump on a $5k flawless rep of a $15k watch (since they own the $15k gen). So all theories considered the one that make the most sense is to do what the market does naturally in most instances, provide low quality, mid grade, and high quality at appropriate prices. At worst rep makers have higher production costs but dont' have R&D and advertising to cover up, and at best reps might sell like hot cakes if they were good enough, thus removing the higher production due to low yeild factor. I just can't see why it doesn't happen at least somewhat to this extent.

Ok so I think the concensous is that the only way to get the perfect watch is to buy the gen... things like quality control and quality of workmanship come up as well as cost. Well the way I see it, it doesn't quite add up... the obviously example being Rolex/Tudor. Rolexes cost a buttload. Now there are only two possible explanations for this price: The parts plus labor actually cost about that much. or There is a significant markup Considering the Tudor is every bit as good as a Rolex, but doesn't cost nearly as much, it is pretty obvious it's the second. So my question is, how can it be right to say that you can't get as good as the gen without buying the gen, if in reality the Tudor pretty much gets as good as a Rolex without costing as much as a Rolex? Now I know some people say a rep is just a copy so can't be as good as the original. I ask why? How are the parts made? They are stamped out of a machine. If a machine can make it, another can make it just as well. I understand the inherant problems with die casting something or trying ot make a copy from a mold but it should be at least possible to make the same parts that are in gens just minus costs like copyrights and advertising. At the very worst shouldn't we be able to get Rolex reps that are every bit as good as the original for about the price of a Tudor or less? I mean a Tudor is pretty much a Rolex for less isn't it? It seems that to say the only way to get as good as the gen is to buy a gen may be true right now, but it's not a universal truth as in it is possible to get as good as a gen (in terms of aesthetics as well as functionality) without meeting the same cost criteria. In other words it's like saying it's impossible to get a 2 door Hummer. That's true. Not because you can't have one or it can't be done, but just because it's not available right now. I mean honestly, take: A few forum members with keen eyes Some very good pictures of or actual gens (stolen, borrowed, who knows) or even just the movements from the gens A metalw working factory suitable for building watch parts and some suppliers of parts I don't necessarily think it can be done for sub $500 prices but the scam sites sell $1000+ reps all the time... there is obviously a market out there... I would imagine a pretty much perfect rep of most watches should be produceable for somewhere between $1000-3000 which would still be far cheaper than the gen and still have a market. Sure it means a bigger risk to the manufacturer as if the watch doesn't sell they are out thousands instead of tens of dollars but it seems by now someone should have tried it a few times. Other than that the only reason I can think of is that if the prices and profits got that high the gen manufacturers would take a stronger stance, but either way the "want perfection, get a gen" seems flawed... What do you say?

Can't you just make another paypal account?

I understand the inherant risk in all it's logical ugliness, but there is still that part of me that just denies it until I actually have it in my hands (you know, the side that says your x gf still wants to get back together no matter how much you hear it's not true until you see her wedding photos?). Up until recently I have not known much about watches other than: Rolexes are fancy I can't afford any fancy watches And in my mind Rolex = Daytona. Any othe rolex I wouldn't have recognized or thought twice about. So I guess you can say that getting a Daytona (as stupid as it may be logically due to inacuracies) is simply fullfilling a sophmoric desire that I just need to get out of the way. I ordered the noobmariner because it's a good rep, the movement isn't being pushed hard in it and I think it's a nice daily watch. I am in on the IWC group buy because it's a solid discount and the watch looks like a very solid, attractive professional watch. I want the Daytona for my long time desire to have the MOP Gold (originally I liked full gold but I really don't know about that in a plated rep) and if it breaks on me or craps out it will be painful for sure but it will hit two birds with one stone: Get rid of my need to have a mop daytona and teach me that sometimes you have to have your head say no even if you really want it... Sticking my hand in the fire as it were, just to know what it is to get burned