TeeJay

Do it.

Here's hoping people will take note, and be prepared to act on it

A fascinating read, thanks for taking the time to make it so

Indeed it is an insult to us. Equally so, the mindset mentioned (and raised in other threads) that people should be greatfull to receive such junk, and simply keep buying, in the hopes that once they've spent X amount, the dealer decides that they, as a client, are now 'worthy' enough to receive 'the good stuff'. I find it insulting that there are dealers who appear to be working on that principle, and equally insulting and, to be frank, downright scary, that such behaviour is glossed over by the suggestions to 'build a relationship with the dealer...' If someone goes to a restaurant, pays for a slap up meal, then spends the rest of the evening with gut-ache and rushing for the bathroom every five minutes, they're hardly likely to go back to see if they get served better food next time, and I think that's the philosophy which should be applied here. If a dealer is a drop-shipper, then fair enough, they have no controll of what gets parcelled up, other than the hopes that the despatcher fills the order correctly, and in that circumstance, as long as they accept a return (which should be at their cost, because the error is by their 'company') then not an issue. But. Should a dealer be claiming to make personal inspections and QC, then the items should be as good as possible, given the nature of the game. Okay, so they order 500 watches from the factory, and of those, maybe 10% are unnacceptably flawed (mechanically) in that instance, that 10% should simply be scrapped or returned to the factory itself, certainly not sent out to paying clients. At the end of the day, the markup which is being put on these watches, sales of the 90% will more than cover the cost of outright junking the 10% of faulties... Personally, I feel the time has come that these 'trusted dealers' started re-earning the right to be called thus. Proving that they are trustworthy, not just in name, but in nature. That's a really positive way to look at it, and it's good that you can look at it from that perspective, it's just a shame that you've been put in the situation where you've had to...

At the end of the day, both movements will tell the time, one will just cost less than the other Personally, I can't see the point in spending extra just to have a Swiss movement, other than 'bragging rights', as the performance of Asian movements is perfectly adequate for the intended use

They're not right at all. We've all seen the quality of reps available, and there's no reason why that standard of reps should not be delivered to all customers, all the time. Okay, things like dial printings, fair enough, they're reps, not gens, so a little acceptance of the standard has to be given there, but, any fool can see if the watch they are packing is actually running or not, or if the screws are stripped. Or, more likely, any canny 'business man' can tell if the watch is not running, and simply hope that the client will fall for excuses of "Must've died in transit..." or "Sorry, send it back and will replace it for you..." I think this kind of attitude from dealers and some members, shows a very dangerous mindset developing: Namely, that people should expect to accept defective product, simply because we are 'buying reps, not gens'. While I would agree that folks should not expect 100% perfect replication, the basic mechanics of the watch itself, ie movement running, screws solidly in place, etc, should be consistent for all buyers on all transactions. We all work hard for our money, and I think it's time that some dealers realized that people expect reasonable product for their money, and don't deserve to be fobbed off with DOA Junk, and then meaningless platitudes to stop the client simply requesting a refund.

[edit] Whoops, wrong guy...

Thanks for the info guys, I'll see what DSN has on offer

I have to admit, I'm not 100% sure there is, but, I saw a watch shot the other day, where the buckle looked like it was 24mm (compared to the strap width) so I wondered if this might be correct If not, generic buckle for me

I know I can get a generic brushed 24mm Pre-V style buckle on the Bay for a few dollars, but, I really want a 'branded buckle' to go with my One Eight Something... Not that I'm one for brandnames as such, but as most of my other buckles do have brandnames on them, to not have a brandname on the buckle seems strange Any suggestions? Thanks in advance

Sorry to be boring, but I'm still wearing the One Eight Something. I've really taken to this watch, as, despite its flaws in replication, it is very nicely made, and ideal for day to day abuse without fear of damage. Not that I want to bash it up, but, I think I'll be less concerned about this one taking a few dings and nicks than I would be if it was my 127

Best of luck with the interview

As a self-confessed PAMophile, I'll have to say no to that. I do, however, seem to have gotten over my PlanetOceanitis I guess at the end of the day, PAMs are the best suited to my personal requirements in a watch

Hmm, not bad at all It reminds me somewhat of the vintage Rolex Explorer Steve McQueen wore. I have to admit, I'm not too impressed with the bezel choice. Too many circles too close together. Personally, I think the watch would have benefitted from either an NESW bezel, or the bezel of the 187, just to 'break up the look' a bit. Still a nice watch though

Thanks You're quite right, the caseback is the real highpoint of the watch. The photos don't really do justice to the variation between the three finishes. The polished section is mirror-smooth (apart from hairscratches now...) and, the frosted section is quite different to look at than the brushed sections, but sadly, the photos never really captured that to it's full extent. If anything, the frosted section, looks virtually identical to a pane of glass, which has had 'frosting film' put over it. That kind of opacity/texture Thanks It certainly seems bullet-proof thus far No hint of flooding or condensation when it's gotten wet, the movement keeps perfect time, but then, it's quartz, so that's only to be expected What I really need to do to get it perfect, is to find a brushed 24mm logo buckle. I know there are un-branded ones available, but I fancy putting a branded buckle on it Maybe one of Andy's straps as well...

I guess others don't have any love for the lower end reps... You can be honest, it's because it's a quartz movement, isn't it

Awesome

Just to be clear, when I said about feeling coerced into supporting, that feeling was not in any way from admin's request for help with hosting fees, but wholy down to comments from other members, who seemed to make it their mission to 'encourage' others to support, or who simply deride non-supporters as being 'cheap'. I agree completely with what Andreww and cib0rgman said, and could not agree more strongly with this comment from P4GTR: Even a blindman could see that there is a lot of money on these boards. Sure, there are some young student members, but equally, there are many members who have very lucrative positions in business. I think it blows the myth, that people only buy reps because they can't afford 'the real thing', totally out of the water, and it is nice to see that people are here, not because of the desire to hook some cheap watches to look successful, but out of a genuine passion for watches, be they genuine or replica: It shows that we're all here because we all love watches. But. I don't think it would hurt for folks to remember than not everyone is as well off, or has the disposeable income that they clearly have. It is easy to be generous with money, when it is an easy commodity.

I guess it depends on if the watch is likely to be re-sold or not. If it's being sold, then the COSC certificate could well be used to command a higher price. In practical terms, no, I don't think it's worth it. I have Asian movements that run at +2 seconds a day out of the box. Well within COSC standard. I don't need a certificate to prove something I can observe myself, as I have no need to prove the reliability to myself... In terms of accuracy of the watch itself, then I can understand the necessity to know to what standard one's watch is running, as that can then be easily adjusted for daily/weekly to keep the watch accurate. However, another reason why such precision is somewhat redundant, is, untill everyone synchronizes their clocks and watches to the same source, everyone's clock or watch is going to be telling a slightly different time. I've always been rather OCD about my watch being precice to the GMT Time Signal, but I'll never forget one time I turned up to work, only to have a snotty member of staff with delusions of grandeur (as she was knocking off the boss) tell me I was late, and pointed at the wall clock to emphasize the point. I replied that the clock was inaccurate, and that my watch was correct as per the GMT signal. When she tried to say that it was the wall clock that mattered, I said that I, like the rest of the country, work according to the GMT signal, not the time of a wall clock which hadn't been corrected in who knows how long, and would continue to do so. She never mentioned the subject again So bearing that in mind, while it's all well and good to have one's own clock or watch set to a reliable source, one should never forget that other timepieces might not be so studiously calibrated, and confusion can occur

At the end of the day, I think that's up to the person themself, and they should not have to justify, explain or expand on their reasons, as those reasons are personal to them. All the time the forum is accessible for free, I don't think people should be 'encouraged' (feels a lot more like being coerced) to donate. That said, I would say that if someone has genuinely benefited from the community, ie straps, new watch etc etc, then it doesn't hurt to make a contribution as a way of saying thanks. Lets not forget though, that there are also non-financial contributions which people can make, by reviews and the like. Personally, I would have contributed much earlier, and much more, had I not been down a considerable sum of money thanks to a business deal which was not honored, so for some time, I was trying to re-coup that loss, as well as having more important outgoings, such as vet bills, so I had to prioritize, and I make no apology for that, as that is an explanation, not an excuse. Always interesting to read other's views though

I totally agree with what Corgi said, and, having read his [Neil's]comments on the linked thread, I think Neil's well and truly shown his true colors. Throwing insults about a person's appearance, or infirmity, belongs in the playground, not the discussion forum of adults. Belittling someone's ill health is particularly low, especially when having recently practically begged for people's patience and understanding while experiencing his own health difficulties. Difficulties which, it is worth remembering, are to do with totally controllable and managable conditions, not life-threatening illnesses. Diabetes? Boo Hoo, I'm sure we all know someone with diabetes that isn't at death's door... Sure, Neil might be a 'straight talker', and might well have brought issues like the Cartel to people's attention, but that doesn't give him the right to behave as he did, either here, or on RG. I'm glad he's gone. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Gorgeous watch

I've been wearing this all weekend: I think I'll wear this tomorrow though

Okay, this is a watch I received about a week ago, and have grown really fond of. It is supposed, to be a rep of the 187, but, as you can see, not particularly accurate, hence my re-naming of it. In terms of pure replication, it's nothing special, infact, only three things are correct about it to the original: The title, the case-back, and the fact it tells the time I know those who seek pure 1:1 reps will probably have seizures looking at this, but, do bear with it, it's a nice watch in its own right, and I felt worthy of a review About my review: In writing this review, I am going to follow the style of a review which ultimately led to my interest in Omega watches, and ultimately reps, John B. Holbrook, II's excellent comparitive review, Omega Seamster Professional Vs Rolex Submariner. I am going to be judging the watch as objectively, and honestly as possible, giving justifications for my reasonings as I go. These scores are purely based upon my own observations and opinions about the watch, people are free to agree or disagree as they wish. A note about my 'scoring system': I will be scoring on a scale of 0 - 10, with 5 being the mid-way score. A score of 5, would mean that the 'aspect' performs its intended function. And no more. A score of five, in academic terms, would be considered 'a pass', but the lowest possible pass, and single lower mark would have meant a failing grade. Respectively, a 0 reflects a total failure to perform the designated role, and a 10 represents a performance of the designated role which goes 'above and beyond', and could not possibly be better. Let's get started... CASE: Despite being the wrong shape and size, it's got a pretty good case. The brushed finish is flawless (other than what I've done to it myself over the week) it has no sharp edges, and, despite having functional chrono pushers, it doesn't flood when going under water. RATING: 10 BEZEL: UNMODIFIED: MODIFIED: Controversial... When the watch arrived, I was concerned that the raised NESW markers would either snag clothing, or fall off randomly at some totally embarassing moment, so I used a razor blade to pry them off, and then used the flat part of a small screwdriver to polish the indentations. The result, is something I'm very happy with, and would rate as a 10. However. It is not really fair to rate the factory version on something which I customized, especially as the original form caused concerns, so I will score it on that original state. Functionally, the bezel is fine. It rotates smoothly, and is easy to grip. In terms of replication, the bezel is inaccurate, but, the NESW markers are more in keeping with the first Arktos watch, so although an incorrect detail, it is an understandable, and tollerable one. RATING: 8 CASEBACK: Absolutely flawless. This is one of the high points of the watch, and features three different finishing effects: Brushed, frosted and polished. All markings are crisp and clear. All wording is correctly spelled. RATING: 10 CROWN: Well protected crown, with well-defined ridges, is easy to grip, and gives smooth operation of the movement. Crown moves in and out smoothly. Crown guard lever locks solidly into place, without hint of looseness or rattling while closed. When open, the lever moves smoothly. If you look closely, you will see that one of the screws is slightly damaged. It is still functional, and, as it's concealed by the crown guard, something I'm not particularly bothered about, although I know that some, would sh*t bricks if they received a watch with such a screw fitted. RATING: 10 DIAL: Another of the highlights of the watch. Color is charcoal grey, with primarily white printing. '1000' lettering is printed in cerulean blue. All lettering is of equal print quality, including the luminous markings of the subdials. Dial indices are well formed, with even lume applications, and, while certainly not as attention-grabbing as a sandwich dial, still appealing and attractive. Lume is nothing special. Although initially impressive, it fades out quickly, so only good for about 3 hours visibility. While I was initially concerned about the size of the dial compared to the size of the case, the printings on the rehaut give the illusion of a larger dial, and prevent cluttering, which would have occured had the markings been printed on the dial face. Markings on the rehaut are as cleanly executed as those on the dial face. The chrono dials are nicely recessed, well balanced, and do not clutter the dial, however, a larger dial would make the watch easier to read. All chrono dials are functional. '3' runs a 24 hour sweep in conjunction with the main hands. While it is not possible to set it independant of the hands, say to track a second timezone, it does allow for day/night distinctions to be made in environments with unchanging light levels, such as caving or an Arctic expedition Seconds run constantly at '6'. '9' runs a minute count while the chronograph is running. While the chronograph is inactive, the main second hand is frozen, but, when active, the second hand does move. Although it does not sweep, being a quartz movement, it does keep time flawlessly, and, if started at the right time, runs flawlessly in conjunction with the seconds at '6', with neither hand gaining or losing time on the other. RATING: 10 HANDS: Hands are well made, with no scratches, no smudges and no lume on the outside edges, but not the most practical, as they would benefit from lume strips along the skeleton sides. Lume on hands is an excellent color match with the lume on the dial indices, although when glowing, the hands glow brighter than the indices. Better that, than the other way round though... RATING: 8 CRYSTAL: Virtually flat saphire crystal does not distort the view of the dial in any way. Rating: 9 (would be 10 if AR coated) STRAP: The factory strap for this watch is absolutely, completely and utterly unacceptable, and I threw it away immediately. What made the strap so unacceptable? The material it was made out of. All printings and letters were well formed, but, the strap was glossy, rather than matte, and one could practically see the phthalates sweating out of the rubber. In terms of health, that is completely and utterly unacceptable, so it got thrown in the bin immediately. Of course, it's often mentioned that when buying a rep, one should also budget for a strap to replace the factory-issued one. While I have never experienced that before, it was certainly true of this watch. I don't even have the strap, so I have shown a dealer photo of it. I replaced the strap, first with my own 24mm dive strap, but later, with a honeytan sharkskin strap. RATING: 3 BUCKLE: The buckle which was fitted to the strap, was not a screw in buckle, was not the correct shape, and the lettering 'Panerai' was not etched centrally. Absolute garbage. RATING: 1 VERSATILITY: Not really this watch's strong point... It is a utilitarian watch, designed for use in harsh environments, not wearing in a board room or getting drunk in a naff wine bar. While changing the dive strap for a leather strap makes it more visually appealing, nothing can take the watch out of it's genre of a 'tool watch'. It can certainly be worn casually, but could never be considered smart or formal. Watch does not fit easily under a shirt cuff. RATING: 3 UNSCORED EXTRAS: I bought this watch as a 'tough, work beater', something which I could wear without fear of damage or flooding. This shot is a testament to the confidence I have in the watch, and by extension, the dealer I bought it from. CONCLUSIONS: A very nicely put together watch, marred by an unacceptable strap, and made awkward by the NESW markers on the bezel. Overall, this watch is very nice. As mentioned above, it is likely not going to impress, or be appreciated by anyone who demands 1:1 accuracy in replication, but, why is 1:1 replication important? To pass the watch off as genuine? That's not something that I want to do, so the lack of accuracy in replication does not bother me, I simply view it as 'a watch', and appreciate the quality of construction for itself. In terms of replication, the One Eight Something falls short in all areas, most noteably size, bezel and details of dial printings. It could not, regardless of the modifications performed, ever pass for a genuine 187. However, viewed as itself, as 'a watch', it is very nicely made, with clear, well executed dial markings, and engravings (especially on the caseback). As an interesting note, the domed caseback creates a more noticeable, focussed pressure point on the wrist, than other flat PAM casebacks. As with all PAMs, it is likely to be overlooked by passers by as simply a 'large, ugly watch'. For anyone wanting a heavyduty 'tool' watch, I think it is ideal. Now, this watch scored pretty low, thanks to a few stupid flaws, flaws which can easily be remedied by an owner. It's not hard to swap a strap, and, not particularly challenging to remove the raised bezel markers, then re-brush the bezel, giving a smooth, un-snagging finish. For those reasons, on this particular review, I will be awarding bonus points.... POSSIBLE SCORE: 100 OVERALL SCORE: 72 BONUS POINTS: - Replacement strap + 7 points - Modified Bezel + 2 points OVERALL SCORE: 81 Still not the best of scores, but, I appreciate that this watch might well not be to everyone's taste... As stated above, these opinions are solely my own, and others are free to agree or disagree with them as they wish. I hope this has been an informative review, thanks for reading

I've been playing Need For Speed:Carbon quite a lot lately. In terms of game itself, it's shockingly easy to complete... However, the cusomization feature allows for driving of 'favorite cars' in the 'Quick Race' or 'Free Roam' options. Mostly, I tend to drive this: Oneday, I'd like to own the real thing