TeeJay

That's looking damn good If I can get my Vintage Planet Ocean project to come out half as good as that, I'll be happy

Maybe if we started using the VIP section more ourselves... put more useful information and tips there...

Then maybe people who 'pass through' wouldn't see anything of value or relevence to them, might not want to pay a subscription fee just to see if there is anything 'inside' that they want to see, so they would move on, and that would mean less new members than before...

Oh boy, I've dealt with this clown before as well. Best to steer well clear. If you leave him negative feedback, he just responds by saying that you're a liar, and that all customers are satisfied with the products I registered a dispute a while back when I ordered an insert for my Submariner, and what arrived was junk. I pointed out that the bezel was distinguishable from the genuine (which his sale claimed it would not be), but he just refused to cooperate with the eBay complaint, so after the set period, the complain automatically cancelled itself (leaving me with a negative feedback, which, thanks to me having very few eBay purchasses, put a big dent in my rating )

He is a liar and a cheat. One thing's for sure, the way he carries on, oneday, he's going to get a serious smiting, either from a dissatisfied customer who's close enough to make it personal, or in karmic form.

I went ahead and smashed out the pearl, and with the help of some concrete walls, beat the hell out of the watch case as well. Put it on a very vintage looking MP strap and it looks HOT now I'll post pics when I get the camera back from my wife.

I can't wait to see the results to the case Did you mask the crystal, or did you let that take a few knocks as well?

Other than this great forum, I like to frequent other watcher forums out there. Perhaps many of you know PMWF/SCWF, ThePuristS, TURF, WUS, TZ (and TZ-UK), and who could forget TBWF? I've read so many arguments and debates about what is better value, prestige, "bang for the buck", etc.

So, during my travels, I see so many watches that look like clear knockoffs of others (or hommages); Invicta is a known culprit in this. But there are some people who swear by their brand as the brand of choice, and most others are just paying a premium for a "name" or to be some part of "elitist" club.

My question for you is: How can such an argument be justified? What's in a name? What can you get from purchasing from one brand that you can't get with another?

Please don't include reps vs. gens or HBB vs. ROO is this argument.

The reason why I chose to ask my question here vs. other forums is that many of you have given unbiased responses to questions and I'm sure an overwhelming number of you are gen owners, from the simplest Luminox to the most extravagant Breguet.

At the end of the day, I would have to say the only difference between the brands is aesthetic appearance, and maybe an update in the materials/technology involved, say, a modern divers watch having double ARd saphire crystal, compared to the perspex crystals of yester-year. It's the 'little things' rather than the glaringly obvious, as, at the end of the day, they're all just watches. All just devices for telling the time.

With regards Clone Watches like Invicta, I view them solely as a company which, although wanting to make a name for themselves, doesn't have the talent or drive to design anything of their own, so just copies and bastardizes another company's designs before slapping their own brand on it. Sure, the replicas might be copies of real watches, but at least they (the factories) are (at least in theory ) replicating those specific details and branding, rather than simply cloning the watch and applying their own label. In that sense, reps are at least 'remaining true' to the original, as although they may be imitations, they only appear to be imitations, rather than a different brand all together, which the Clone Watches appear to be.

Autographs or not, Jenna is an incredible person, and very much underestimated by many. If there were more people with her kindness of spirit in the world, it would certainly be a better place

No surprize, I'm still wearing the 111h on it's factory strap

But. Either tomorrow or wednesday, the SS bracelet should be arriving, so that will make for an interesting swap

Freely you have received, freely give. (Matt 10:

Whether New Testament or Koran, we are all enjoined to give. It's the most rewarding part of belief.

Indeed. The thing I find the most 'comforting' about Islam, is that although there are things which are obligatory, they are only obligatory to those able to perform the requirements, there is nothing about people having to do or give any more than they can

Congratulations indeed, I hope all works out well

Not wanting to get all 'preachy' about things, I found this rather excellent passage in the Holy Qur'an and thought I'd share it

Sura 2: The Cow:

O ye who believe! bestow alms of the good things which ye have acquired, and of that which we have brought forth for you out of the earth, and choose not the bad for almsgiving,

Such as ye would accept yourselves only by connivance: and know that Allah is Rich, Praiseworthy.

Assalamu alaikum

To quote your "emotional blackmail"....yes, call it what you want....also, if the "shoe fits...then wear it" applies....dam skippy if I can lay a little guilt trip on the members that are feeding at the trough but not contributing....I enjoy the hell out of this site and I don't want it to go away. If EVERYONE did their part...than the call for donations wouldn't be necessary.

Ramadan Kareem

Alaikum massalam

Also, as Islam "demands" charitable contributions to the needy...I guess that doesn't count as "emotional blackmail" ....only my posting does?

You're quite right, the emotional blackmail is posts 'encouraging' ( ) others to donate. The point which has been raised many a time, that it is not for forum members to lay a guilt trip on anyone for anything. As pointed out, most forums are not subscription only, and neither is this one. If a forum is subscription only, then so be it. If a forum is run by voluntary donations, then so be it. If people really feel so strongly that this should be a forum where only subscribers can access information, then maybe a petition to make that so should be collected and presented to Admin for consideration. One thing I would point out, is that the amount of people who become members and stay around, will get much less if people have to pay an upfront subscription fee in order to read anything on the site, and with a hobby/subject like this, then it is most definitely a case of the more the merrier...

Islam demands that I make donations to the needy (who a person deems needs it most) I could donate to animal welfare, or child welfare, but instead, I will donate to the forum, as that is clearly in need, and something I feel the money will actually go to the intended recipients, unlike some 'charities' which skim off the top in 'administration' fees, so I'd rather my donations go here than elsewhere.

Assalamu alaikum

Heh, that's funny, TeeJay. Had no idea.

Roman Catholics are also enjoined to make charitable contributions (loosely translated as to use 1/3 of your salary, donate the other 1/3 to charity, and to save 1/3 for your future).

But I don't do so because of that since religion is at a discount in the West. I do so because I sense a need, and if I can, I fill it.

I'm a rather recent convert to Islam, but don't broadcast it around too much as I know that Muslims aren't exactly 'flavor of the month' in these times... I'd've thought you'd've made the connection to Islam when I said how many times a day I wash my hands

My bottom line is "no pay...no play"...I am seeing too many postings of non paying folk looking for a handout....looking for free advice and even a few folk making for sale posts in the non-sale fora 'cause they don't have membership.

We have a lot of visitors here and a lot of good information available...and this information costs money. Its time they pay up. So many of these newbs land here after getting fried for $1000 "Swiss Grade A uno numero shiz nitty Rollie sub" purchases....the info presented here already saves them a LOT of money.

I landed here early last year....liked what I saw...heard the monthly call for "donations" and of becoming a supporter and so I immediately pony'd up the money.

I wish the other freeloaders would do the same.

Not directed at tech personally, but just to point out, that these are precicely the kind of comments mentioned on page 1 which totally discourage people from donating. It makes people feel unnecessarily belittled and cheap simply because they do not pay funds.

Lets be very clear about something here. This is not a subscription-only site like some forums are. People do not have to pay just to be a member or read the content. Therefore, the content is free for all to read, and comments like those above, do rather come across (intentionally or otherwise) as emotional blackmail to make people feel bad about not subscribing.

Come friday, funds allowing, I will be donating $50. I will also donate $50 the month after that, and the month after that ad infinitum. These donations will be made, not because I personally feel I should donate that amount, but because Islam demands I make zakat (charitable donations) and it is not my place to question the will of Allah.

Assalamu alaikum

Just an idea I was kicking about in my head, ie what would a 45mm Planet Ocean look like in 50 years time, and wondered if people thought it'd make a good project? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking scuffed up bezel insert and missing pearl, dial lume vintaged to a browney orange, all over 'hair scratches' on the case, as well as a few 'meaty dings', and maybe even some damage to the crystal. Strap wise, while I guess it would be possible for someone to source the rubber strap in 50 years, I'm wondering if a NATO strap might be more in keeping, or if the rubber strap itself should be distressed? What do folks think? Yay or nay?

PS This would not be happening to my 45 Planet Ocean, but one I'd source specially for the project

I think I'm going to take a screwdriver and a hammer to the bezel pearl and simply knock it out. I saw someone here with a 187 that had a smashed pearl and I thought it looked pretty cool.

Carefull with the hammer, you wouldn't want the shock to affect the movement (unless you strip the watch first, of course ) Sounds like a good plan though

er...

Dad's = dad is/posession of dad

dads = plural (more than one dad)

It is?? Oh well... Carry on

Haha! Where the hell did you read that I was saying your dad is oriental? Come on, your English seems pretty flawless to me for you to be making a mistake like that. Look at what context 'Oriental' is in. I was referring to his 'Oriental' watch that has been working 30 years. You are really are funny!

In all fairness, you did write dad's rather than dads.

Dad's = dad is

dads = posession of dad

@Teejay

Its not about the product guarantee. Its about that 'Ahhhhhhh' feeling you get when sporting a gen, which you probably get as well when wearing a good rep. However the question is, how big is the 'Ahhhhhh' compared to that of a gen's? If you get what I am saying sir. haha :Jumpy:

I see what you mean, that indefineable satisfaction from something (Indeed, I do get that when wearing a nice rep ) If anything, when I try on reps in ADs, the feeling I get is 'Meh...' rather than 'Ahhhh'

Thanks again all for your replies! Many of you that replied to my thread answered the question with a great deal of rationalization; others solely based on aesthetics.

I've noticed that the hobbyists are rep purists, as they're the "core" of the game; it's them that caused the reps to come this far in terms of accuracy and newer innovations in terms of the movement or construction.

Some have said that the gens' cost will never be justified and that they are grossly overpriced; though I would like to say otherwise for some of the marques. Sure, one can purchase (example) a Chrono Avenger rep for $250, but the gen costs $3,000. But what do you get for $3,000? Peace of mind. Reliability. Superb construction, QC, and (possibly) better materials.

The reason I say this was that a friend of mine had taken it apart to replace the dial (from blue to white). I looked at the case and just the construction of the pushers itself shows that the quality is evident on the gens.

Then again, there are also those other manufacurers who think they can charge $5K+ Just because they think they could. Ever heard of Bertolucci?

While I'd admit that gens have a generally higher level of QC, and in some cases, better contruction, I'd point out that I have peace of mind in my reps as I know the dealer stands by them. Their reliability has never been a problem, and in that regard, they are no better or worse than the reliability of a genuine watch (let's not forget the photo of a Seiko which had condensation under the crystal) In all honesty, do we really need product guarantees at these prices? The fact that ADs offer them goes to show that even gens are capable of breakdown, and sure, while getting a DOA watch is an unnacceptable standard from a dealer, if a rep floods or something goes wrong, it's a lot easier and cheaper to repair (or just completely replace) than the gen version...

Teejay....yes PT is sending me a replacement dial - no problem. However, therein lies my problem as I require soemone reputable to swop it over for me, based in the UK. Unfortunately I am relatively house bound so was hoping there would be a forum member I could post the item to for the work to be done.

Sorry I missed your post until now. That's great that PT is sending you a replacement dial I would say that if you could get the back off the watch, a dial swap is a fairly straight forward procedure, but I'm not sure how chrono pushers could complicate the procedure. Best of luck in finding someone to take care of it for you

Because business is about making money. And IMO there is nothing wrong with making MORE money, having reduced your costs.

This is a fundamental difference in how many people think. To me, business is not about ethics or morality regarding profit.

If you had argued that Rolex outsourced much of their partmaking to Chinese factories, and THEN started reneging on their previous excellent customer service record, I might perk up and agree. In fact, I'm sure I would.

But if you tell me that since now Rolex are saving loads of money by getting cheaper parts made in China, and are not passing on the savings to its future customers, that simply leaves me shrugging.

That's the whole point of business, of Capitalism, of turning a profit.

I absolutely agree, making a profit is the purpose of business. There are, however, companies which survive by selling a reasonable product at a reasonable price. That is also business. Personally, I do not think 'prestige' (which ultimately comes down to 'brand worship') warrants artificially inflated prices.

Right, it needn't be, but it CAN be a moral dilemma.

Does one give money to counterfeiters who are illegally ripping off legitimate companies of their intellectual property rights, on their customer service record, and fine name, to get ultimately comparatively shoddy goods, for a fraction of the price?

Or do you bite the bullet, and make the rich richer, because you feel it's not fair to rip anyone off, such as contributing to the stealing of ideas, no matter the justification?

At the end of the day, that is the decision the consumer has to make.

I once asked this on RWI: Say one of us started ripping off designs from strapmakers Savage and Tootall, who in the meantime had become very wealthy making straps (let's pretend for a moment). We took away from their creativity, by simply appending their names to our designs. Would this be fair? No. If they decided to charge 2x, 3x...10x as much than when they first started out, simply because in the meantime they had gained experience and renown, thus making their straps more covettable. Is that fair? Yes.

It's up to each person how they make sense of these things in their own mind.

Now, while I agree with your first part, no, it wouldn't be fair, but then again, the world rarely is. As for the second point, I would disagree. Just because they had gained experience and renown, if the quality of their product remained the same as before (barring reasonable refinements in the creative process compared to the very first strap they ever made) then there is still no justification in an increase in price as the product remains the same. As I said above, personally, I do not think that personally applicable opinions on a product (ie 'popularity'/'covetability') should have any reflection on the item's price. If something is actually worth a high price, then fair play, but just because a lot of people like it, so the maker decides to up the price? Sorry, I don't agree with that, because as you sayu, it's up to each person to draw their own conclusions.

I've made peace with mine a long time ago. If I had the money, I would buy gens 90% of the time.

I think that that, at the core, is where our opinions are so different on this subject. Even if I had the money, I still wouldn't buy gens (unless I felt they were reasonably priced) Say I won a quadruple rollover lottery, I certainly wouldn't rush out and replace my collection of reps with the genuine versions, as then, those would just be 'watches in a box', rather than having the sentimental value which my current collection has (other than my Daytona and 111h, which were simply 'purchasses' rather than sentimental ones) That said, I'd apply that philosophy across the board, as I do now, in that I'd buy generic, replica, or more likely, hand-made clothes rather than High Street prices on designer labels. Hand-made clothes might not have a swanky label, but you sure can't beat the feeling of knowing that a garment, not only fits you perfectly, but was made just for you. I'd even go so far as to say I'd go that way with vehicles too, and buy 'kit cars', or custom built rather than buying a prestigious marque (I'm not much of a gear hear, but I'd still love to build my own kit car oneday so I could at least say "I built that...") I probably should've put this final point at the beginning as it probably makes my other comments make more sense

"Inflated prices for gens"...

I don't think a company would survive if we paid the prices we wanted to pay for their watch. Essentially we are paying for their future.

Rep dealers/manufacturers seem to be surviving on selling near replicas at reasonable prices...

I could make a grey area out of anything. Which is exactly what you 3 guys have done. You all still say 8" when proven otherwise. Trying to use this instance and that instance, "IF's". I have not once changed my views, so I don't get the whole back peddling. Also, I not am talking in circles. You 3 keep coming up with different arguments and I have to keep bringing you back to square one. Thus I am not the one running in circles. My point or argument has never changed.

Lastly, I will post my results next week and that will be the end of it. None of you 3 are experts or even amateurs in this field, you are only presenting your ignorant opinions on a watch forum. I am trying to educate and you keep spouting things which you "think" you know something about. So then, I will post my results next week and that will be the end of it.

How do YOU know what our level of knowledge may be in this field? As I said before, I have worked on many different projects over the years. Belt making close enough to strap making for you? Now you're going to phone the FTC and ask about how their definition applies to the Real World?? I hope you remember to cite Cranium's examples of guitar and golf clubs when you call them Indeed, what an angry little man you are

Thanks! Hands still glow a little, but the dial doesn't glow at all anymore.

You're more than welcome I have a friend who I think would absolutely love a watch like that (he's not a real watch guy, but I know that that's 'his style')

Ahh, I wondered if that might be the case, as when I baked the lume on my Omega it hardly glowed anymore. The thing I did find interesting, was both the hands and dial received the same baking, yet the lume on the hands was untouched and remained white, but the lume on the dial and insert pearl, went an orangey yellow (and the pearl fell out )

That looks awesome

I achieved a similar vintaging effect by accident on an Omega project watch when I left it under a daylight bulb for a few hours to dry condensation from it, and the lume went the same color as you have there. Out of curiosity, does the lume still glow, or is it a reduced flourescence? I think that might well be a future project I'll have to tackle

Knowing the possible issues with the 21.6 k, that sounds odd I must say. Till now I could understand that the usage of an old 7750 stock helped (to some extent) to offer this lower price. But if you can get the latest Asian 7750 for the same price, what would lead anyone (customer or dealer) to choose the lower beatrate, on purpose ? I'm a bit doubtful about Jay's comment. Maybe this will become clearer later, but for now, I'm just, well, suspicious...

Can't say I blame you. When I ordered the vintage Rolex, I received no tracking number, no nothing, and after a month, (and over a weekend) emailed for an update. When I checked in monday, there were two messages. One saying the original shipment (which had had no tracking number) had been intercepted by customs and was being re-sent, and the second, containing the tracking number. When the parcel arrived, it was the wrong watch, and the jubilee bracelet I ordered was absent. An email was met with the offer to send the correct dial, and the missing bracelet. I am now in the same situation. No tracking number, and after a month, I am debating if I should send a confirming email. I am torn about doing this though, because if I do, I am sure I will receive a reply saying the delivery was confiscated (again ) and that will just confirm my suspicions that Jay tells people whatever he thinks the want to hear to explain delays from sitting on orders, and if I don't sent an email, I'm also sure I'll never receive the dial and bracelet... I think I'll wait and see what happens. I wasn't going to wear the Rolex anyway, so it's not really worth running around after it. I've got my dealer who I know I can trust, so I'll be sticking with him

That other definition was from the same section, so does it also not apply?

Of course it does not apply. One relates to jewellery, the other does not. The first FTC definition you quoted clearly stated hand labour and manually-controlled methods.

Oszolom, you need to grow up. Realize they are not talking about raising a cow by only hand feeding it. Or that you kill it with human hands. Your argument is utter nonsense. They are talking about taking the raw ingredients and producing a product from it. So please, go sit in the corner while the grown ups talk.

Why does Oszolom need to grow up? The points they make are totally valid. If you want to consider a strap to be 100% hand made, you are left with the position of cutting the leather with your teeth and nails. Pushing the thread through the holes (bitten through, of course) by hand without a needle. Sorry, but if you're going to try and insist that 'hand made is hand made', that's the level you have to be reduced to. The FTC definition, as mentioned above, stated "Hand labor AND manually-controlled methods". Using tools and manually controlled machines, falls under the remit of 'manually-controlled methods'.

To be honest, I'm getting sick of wasting time debating an issue with someone clearly unwilling to accept that their own definitions have proved the point against them, and to be honest, you're starting to look like a troll. People have more important things to discuss than if a strap is being incorrectly labelled as 'hand-made', 'hand-crafted' or 'hand-tooled'...