TeeJay

I know; some of us are exceptions to the rule. The ones I speak of in my example, are (and I'm sure you know of them) the ones who probably don't subscribe to the threads and think a "canal st. special" looks just like "the real thing".

But I have a question for you: Since you say that you object to the price tag of the gens, but like the look; let's say you erased all the brand names off all the dials of your reps. Wou you still have the same emotional value to them as you do the ones you own now? Would you still wear them proudly?

Oh and BTW, 100 posts to this thread! I didn't think a thread I started would have an active response!

Thank you, all your opinions are valuable and told me a bit about how people all over the world view their watches.

I have to admit, I would actually love to track down a really nasty Canal St Special, just so it could go in my collection

Interesting question, and one that has a double-layered answer.

If I was to erase all brandings off all the reps which I own, then yes, they would still have the same emotional value (some were gifts, one was the first 'expensive watch' I bought, some are ones which I've customized) and I would wear them with equal pride in their emotional value to me. But. I would consider them to be less accurate reproductions for being 'non-branded'. It wouldn't bother me enough not to wear them, and as mentioned, it wouldn't affect my emotional bond to them, but I can't say that I wouldn't notice at all if they were non-branded. As a side note, I actually rather like 'sterile watches' as issued to forces personel, and plan on aquiring an American Mark II for my collection (even if it never gets worn) simply because I like its 'sterility'

I can smell the difference between Pepsi and Coke and, when being tested (double-blind - they were French) in the office had to hold my nose to show I was actually tasting the difference before declaring Pepsi as the vile brew that it was. I could tell 100% of the time and prefer Coke every time.

The problem with broad strokes describing RWGers and TZers is that some of us are them and some of them are us. We're everywhere and so are they.

Oh, Irn Bru in a glass bottle is the finest of all the fizzy drinks, just in case it was in any doubt.

I guess it's just a matter of personal preference. Something worth tracking down if you can find it, is a concoction called Fentiman's Curiosity Cola (in a glass bottle) It's pretty expensive, and, quite different to either Coke or Pepsi, but it is a nice drink

That's very true, I guess the difference is we aren't ashamed of our gens, but they're ashamed of their reps I wonder if they cry when they look at their collections and find their gaze lingering on the rep

You're spot on there, for some reason glass bottles make a huge difference to the taste of a drink

TeeJay -- You should consider an Invicta or any of the dozens of other Rolex look-alike brands, which are built to much higher quality standards than any commercially-made rep, give you the look and feel of a Rolex (sans the Rolex name, since that is not important to you) and all for about the same cost as a good rep. You even get a real manufacturer's warranty, which comes without any of the legal and QC hassles of a rep.

Now, this is the funny thing. While I have no objections buying a rep of a particular marque, I don't like 'Clone Brands'. Reps aren't trying to be something different to what they're supposed to be (if that makes sense ) where brands like Invicta simply take the existing design, alter a minute detail, and then slap their own logo on, as if they actually designed the whole thing themselves. At least reps are (well, within 'tollerance for rep accuracy') true to what they are copies of, and are branded as the originals, rather than the factory slapping their own logo on. The name (Rolex/Omega/Panerai) is not important to me in terms of 'flashing a brand-name', but, in terms of visual accuracy, that's what the original has on the dial, so that's what I want mine to say on the dial. It's not a case of 'brand worship', just a case of wanting the most accurate to the original at the most reasonable cost. If that makes any sense to anyone but me

Ahh, and here we have the basis for the "double standard" argument. What you can say about the average TZ member is what they can say about the average RWG member.

One can easily say that we care or have even less appreciation for the "art or mechanical craftsmanship" as we, too, are looking for brand recognition and presumed exclusivity. In this world of gens vs. reps, we are all pretenders because we want to project an image of affluence to another. In an even deeper sense, maybe us as rep owners aspire to be gen owners because, after all, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

Sure, there are exceptions to the rule and collect for the "love" of collecting but I'm speaking generally. The reason why we see more hobbyists here is because:

1) This board has a fraction of members vs. TZ

2) It's economicially feasable on your conscience to tear apart a $200 watch. But would you dare take apart a $2000 watch? Not unless you had a a couple $6000 watches, you wouldn't.

Speak for yourself there, Anton... I collect reps because I object to the price tag of gens. I like how certain watches look, but am not prepared to pay the price tag, so instead, I want the closest to that appearance for the most reasonable price. I do not, however, wear 'high end' watches to impress people or convey a certain image, I do so for the reason I decide to put on jeans or a pink shirt: Because I like the way they look. If people want to assume that my watches are genuine, then that's their assumption. If someone was to ask me, I would never claim that a rep was a gen. Infact, the closest I would come to claiming a watch to be anything other than a rep, would be one which I customized or built myself, as I did with The Patient:

Not everyone on the forum buys reps just to pretend they have the real thing.

If you are comparing generic pharmaceuticals to their generic counterparts, I think that case can be made, since the active ingredients and efficacy of both can be proven to be the same. But, in the case of aesthetic judgements, if a difference is perceived between brand A and brand X, then the case can be made for paying some higher price for the 'better' mousetrap.

Personally, I do not like the taste of chlorine and so I am willing to pay more for bottled (or filtered) H2O, and I avoid tap like the plague. But if I was unable to tell the difference between Coke & Pepsi, I would never pay more for one over the other.

In the case of gen vs rep watches, I think that if the buyer does not know the difference, he/she is something of a fool to pay more for one over the other and an even bigger fool when he/she calls all rep buyers a fool.

Not sure the way I wrote that makes sense, but I think you get the point.

As a side note, my favorite drink is tap water (chlorine and all ) Also, I can taste the difference between Coke and Pepsi, and prefer Pepsi, however, I have found that some 'generic supermarket colas' are just as nice as Pepsi and just as satisfactory in quenching my Thirst (vampires get it for blood, I have The Thirst for Pepsi )

*Reads what I originally wrote*

You know what I meant (I hope )

Anyhoo. Yeah, so I'll try on a gen watch in an AD, and just think "I can get this* for cheaper..." I view ADs as the 'testing ground', and then decide if I want to buy the watch. If I do, I order a rep, not the factory perfect gen.

*cosmetically similar enough for my purposes

Show off! I may get with your guy T, you've already given me the info.

I admit, it's not perfect to the closed factory versions, as I believe that had dark blue fill-ins on the bezel, but of what's available today, I think it's a good buy (as long as you don't mind an Asian movement ) If you do go with my usual guy, I think you'll be more than happy with it

You mean one of these...

Not the closed factory version, I know, but good enough for my purpose

"Rolex?"

"Oh-Mee-ga..."

Indeed, have a read around, see what's available, see what you like, but also see what you don't like. Think about what's important to you about the watch. Do you want it to look 100% accurate so you can tell people it's real, or just something which will 'look about right' to keep yourself happy and tell the time... What kind of situations would the watch be worn in? Would it require chrono functions? Lots of things to consider, but, once that's all done, you'll wind up with the perfect watch, and by looking around, you'll get it for your perfect price. Best of luck with your purchases

Awesome watch and review Always good to see 'alternative sources' which have happy endings Congratulations

Stephane-

If you bought it on ebay and paid by PayPal, you are in control of this transaction.

Log in to your PayPal account and go to "Dispute Resolution" (sorry, don't know what it would be in French!).

They will take you through a lot of menus but you get to a place where you can begin a dispute resolution which you will inevitably win.

Once you have filed it, your seller will start remembering things that he forgot and start finding things he has lost.

Do not be afraid of the threat of a negative feedback from this person. He will never do it unless he is a week from going out of business. That you cannot control. But it is a chance we all take, and I have been through it on ebay for the past nine years.

You can win.

Carl

Carl,

Did you not see the post I made regarding this very course of action? Faisal is a slippery bastard and knows how to work the system. He is a liar and a cheat. He incorrectly labels his merchandise, and calls anyone who calls him out on it, a liar. As I said before, anyone leaving him negative feedback, gets the reply "Liar. All customers happy with our product and service." Opening a dispute against him is an exercise in futility as he will drag out his responses untill it passes the time period which a dispute must be resolved by before automatically cancelling. He offers to withdraw negative feedback on the condition that the other person does likewise, and all that does, is prevent others from knowing that he [censored]ed up a deal, and someone stood up to him. This is not a situation someone can win, because as long as he refuses to acknowlegde the messages from eBay, the dispute eventually goes inactive, and his status is unaffected. As I've said before, and will say again. It is simply not worth the risks of dealing with Faisal as if anything goes wrong with the deal, the "I'll make it right" attitude which people expect from the recommended dealers, simply does not exist in this person. He is a liar and a cheat, and deserves nothing less than being banned from eBay completely.

Looks awesome A fantastic project

In all fairness, I think as long as someone's sensible, then there's not going to be a problem. In all honesty, how many watches does someone have to take for a trip? I figure three or four is about the most.

1. Beater.

2. Business 'compatible' watch (if on a business trip) (ie something that will look believable on the wrist in a business environment)

3. Dress watch (if evening meals/opera trips are a possibility)

4. Back up beater (just in case the regular beater dies)

As long as they're all suitably stored in the luggage, I doubt a customs official would have cause for complaint, and, if someone was wearing a PAM, they could just have different straps/bracelet to accomodate the different environments the watch would likely be worn in.

To clarify on the context of the two cases, the guy had quite a few Rollies with him, supposedly for family and friends, but, possibly not, but, either way, carrying that many watches, rather than posting some home, was probably not the smartest of moves, so it's not too surprizing that customs came down on him heavily. The second case, was where the boy's class trip was caught up in the middle of a police raid on a notorious (to locals) market. It wasn't as if he got stopped at customs or had his baggage searched, he was was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Doesn't make it any better for him, and, from what I understand, mere posession of a rep is illegal in Italy, but, the context does make all the difference, in that these really weren't just random cases of someone waiting in line getting hauled in by customs because they were wearing a rep, but specific circumstances which were reasonable investigations.

When/if you receive the inserts, if you to leave an honest, but negative feedback with the dealer, I'd almost bet that his reponse will be to give you negative feedback and put "Liar. All customers satisfied with our product and service." If you lodge a protest with eBay, his responses will drag to the point where the dispute is automatically cancelled. As frustrating as it might be, for the cost of a couple of inserts, I'd suggest letting it drop, moving on, and warning people against using them if their name is ever mentioned again. Best of luck

@TJ has anyone ever told you that you try to argue too hard?

Does a telephone book become redundant once you have rung the numbers you use once? No because you forget as do all our members, unless they bookmark all the sites and albums (not to mention all the updated site moves) then they will always need our info.

However thats not the point, if someone has just come here to find the dealers and then packs up and goes they are hardly a worthy community member anyway.

TJ you need to be very careful that your devil advocate stance doesn't in fact become an anti RWG one.

Ken

Sorry, but that's not really a comparable analogy. People aren't suddenly going to forget who the recommended dealers are if their names weren't openly available, most people who have used them will be on 'email terms' with them, so will also have their contact details on their own email listings.

How could my playing Devil's Advocate become an anti-RWG stance? I have posted absolutely nothing against the forum, and think it has an incredible community, so please don't try and suggest that my comments could be taken as 'anti-RWG', as I was merely pointing out some possible reasons why people may not feel the need to contribute. As Ry pointed out, look at the amount of views compared to the amount of comments. To me, that suggests that people are either scared to comment (for whatever reason), or simply don't care enough to. How many people have offered to pay the annual subscription fee monthly? With regards my own subscription, had some [censored] not given me a 'rubber cheque' for work done, I would have upgraded earlier in the day as promised previously. It really irritates me that thanks to someone else's actions, I have been unable to make good my promise, as that makes me look like a deadbeat, but I can assure you that once the funds do become available, I will be paying $50 a month every month towards the running of the forum for as long as I am able to do so. I am not trying to be antagonistic about this, and don't want there to be any bad blood over this, afterall, I've got quite the Christmas list which I'll need your services to fill, my only intentions on this thread have been to try and provide reasons why people have not been keen to subscribe, which, up till now, people have simply implied it is because people are too cheap to do so, when the case may well be, that, having made purchases, they simply might not find the dealer information usefull, and not see why they should have to pay a subscription just to discuss their existing watches. That's not intended to belittle or discredit the information given in any way, so apologies if it has been taken as such.

Here's some group shots of all my Omegas.

Some work, some don't, but even the ones that don't work have sentimental value, so they're keepers

Ok TJ this is where you are getting side tracked, the reason for these forums is not to supply dealer information, that is but an added bonus which way back was almost denied.

We are primarily a replica discussion forum here to stop people getting ripped off by some of the sites out there, that is our mission statement and nothing else.

Ken

I don't mean to argue, but I think you're still very slightly missing my point. I quite agree, the forum's primary role is as a discussion forum to prevent people being ripped off. I'm totally with you on that point. The point which I was trying to make, is wether the information about who's good and who's not is in 'sticky' thread, 'collector galleries' or just a thread of discussion, once someone knows who is who, who to avoid and who to do business with, then they know, and that information becomes redundant to them. They may well learn something new the next time they check the forum, but that previous specific information, is no longer of benefit to them personally. This is the point I was trying to illustrate. It might have saved them money one day, but once they have their 'dealer of choice', that specific information won't continue to save them money, and that is why a subscription could be viewed as an unfair expense, as they would still be paying for the privelage of the information even after the information had served it's usefullness to them, and all the time they continue to pay a subscription, then from their perspective, they would only be paying for the privelage of posting and chatting with people, and any horological articles and facts which may or may not be posted, as the original information they found usefull and saved them money, the X is good, Y is Bad, Z ships garbage, they would still know, and still be acting upon, but would not need to re-read, hense why I said that the information becomes redundant...

I hope I've better clarrified the point I was trying to illustrate, and if not, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one

certainly there is the social aspect of these boards but I'm sorry your reasoning is still flawed as there is not a member on our forum who doesn't continue to learn new info on almost a daily basis.

Ken

I agree, there is always something new to learn in terms of horology, but in terms of who is a good dealer/who should be avoided (the primary reason for forums like this) that is information that once someone knows, then they know it, and only occasionallly that someone will come up with a really good 'new source'. It's like I said before about how someone once commented that they thought the forum had 'slowed down', but someone else pointed out that from their join date, it was a case of they had recently signed up, read a huge amount of 'old' information, but then found that there was less 'new' information, so from their perspective, they felt things had slowed down, when really, it was just a case that they had finished 'playing catch up'. I'm not even saying that that's how I personally feel about the subject, I'm just trying to see that all the angles are covered. As Ry pointed out, there are plenty of people viewing, but not many actually talking. Some of those viewers might not feel comfortable discussing issues like this on open forum, so keep quiet, some might feel that they've only been a member for a week so their opinion might not be considered over those of more long-standing posters... As I said, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate so other less obvious options (or opinions) are brought to the table as well.

Yes ,.. i agree with you on having to restructure the presentation of the forum, that would be the purpose of subscribing, but that would be putting the cart in front of the horse right now... I don't know TJ part of the subsciption would be to enjoy the forum as a whole .. remember, my suggestion here is not to limit or hinder anyone ,.. but so the Forum as we now it with the current admin and members can move forward and not live month to month .. we actually want to thrive ... and if the social aspect comes with the subscription then I think it is well worth it.... this whole deal is about watches....

but you and I can disagree without being disagreable and have rights to our own opinions and spiritual beliefs ... and not just keep our discussions solely about watches.. i consider you a friend and it has been my pleasure to get to know you through this forum ..

Maybe we should think of it as paying rent in cyberspace.....think if this were a regular land line .. long distance phone service... YIKES..$$$$$$$

I quite agree with you, I was merely playing Devil's Advocate to consider that other aspects as to why people may not feel 'the need' to subscribe. My only concern, is that if opinions become too polarized, and indeed, the social aspect comes with the subscription, then I can see that potentially driving off a few people who would otherwise make excellent contributions to the community of the forum, simply because they feel unwelcomed for not subscribing.

Likewise, and it has been a pleasure to get to know you as well, and I agree, we can view subscriptions in any way to make them more palatable, as I suggested to someone that they consider a fee as a repair fee rather than a release fee, just so mentally, they find it more acceptable, my only concern, is those who for whatever reason choose not to subscribe, being driven away, or otherwise excluded...

Admin. manages to scrape up this month's budget - mainly thanks to a few generous donors....

Issue still not resolved, and the same problem coming up again in just a few weeks.

In the meantime, 116 posts, over 1,500 views, and still counting.

Talk is cheap.

Not everyone can afford to put their hand in their pocket 'on cue'. More importantly, not everyone wants to. That is why these discussions are so helpfull, as they can bring about sollutions which make things more palatable for everyone.

Like I say, the really shameful thing is that more or less the same people - along with a few new ones - respond to Admin's. call for help....while lines of anonymous 'observers' look on silently for a moment and then move on...

I honestly wonder what - if anything - goes on in their heads....

Probably not a whole lot. Some people will simply never contribute financially to the forum for whatever reason.

The info on this forum never becomes redundant as every new watch is reviewed for the new buyers also there are many comparisons between the new watch offering from the different dealers.

Quite simply there is new info that must be read before any purchase.

It might be read by new buyers, but the point I was making, was that once someone has read that information, it becomes redundant to them. They don't need to keep re-reading that X is a good dealer, or that Y is a rip-off artist, or that Z is a drop-shipper who never gets it right. Once they've read it, they don't need that information, yet they remain for the social aspects of the forum. Once someone has all the watches they need, then it becomes a case that they 'came for the watches but stay for the people', and my point, was that some people might not be prepared to subscribe to view a forum solely so they can hang out and chat, that was why I felt a restructuring could be beneficial, as some have expressed the view that people are obliged to pay for the information they have found usefull (which in itself is simply an opinion, people have the right to disagree with that view) so restructuring the permissions and areas, would mean that only subscribers benefit from the watch information, but everyone, subscriber or not, could still benefit from the social aspects, and then there would be no cause for subscribers to take a 'high and mighty' attitude towards non-subscribers, which, intended or not, can happen at present. As Lanikai pointed out, that would let people participate as they chose and felt comfortable with.

.

Point taken TJ... but that is why they need not renew their subscription, if that were the case...

but when people don't have to pay for something then they are apt not to use it as much .. who knows we may see an increase in usage if people were given the choice to become a subsciber or not... the main thing is to keep an open mind (works for me as well) when trying to come up with solutions to new "challenges" ...

I enjoy discsussing and debating different ideas .. at times it is a form of "entertainment"

Say the subscription rate was 15.00 usd per year .. that would equate to a little over 4 cents a day per year... is that taking advantage of anyone ??? and at 20 usd that would be about 5 cents per day...

I think that is totally fair given the price of gas and other commodities

Absolutely, the need not renew their subscription, but, then there would be the situation we have at present, where non-subscribing members are looked on as getting a free ride off of the subscribers, and the problems we have seen with people being 'encouraged' to subscribe, by means both friendly, and not so. I guess the point I was trying to illustrate, is that once someone has the watches/info they need, their only reason for remaining is the community aspects, rather than the purely informational aspects of the forum. Maybe it would be worth re-structuring the forum so that subscribers get much more information than non-subscribers, while still allowing everyone to benefit from the discussions and camaraderie...

Indeed, I enjoy debate as well, although my post was intended more as using yours as a springboard, and expanding on the theme

I agree, the actual fee is not much, and I suspect the amount of it's cost is not the actual issue with people not subscribing, but more along the lines of them feeling they're not actually gaining much by subscribing...

Just my .2c

I got the urge at lunchtime to put my 2531.80 SMP on. Y'all know what it looks like

and if they can afford to save a substantial amount of money by using this forum then they will have paid for any subscription ... and after their subscription runs out they may "choose" not to renew it.. because they no longer feel they need it.

To also play Devil's Advocate, I must point out that although use of the forum might initially save people money on buying reps from disreputeable dealers, before long, people know who is good to do business with, and who to avoid. With that being the case, information on the forum, (unless it is an article relevent to a key area of a person's interest, such as movement assembly, comparisons between the various divers watches or GMT models) rapidly becomes redundant, so those members would find themselves paying a subscription, just to 'chat and hang out with friends'. Some people don't mind doing that, some do. Someone once commented that they thought the forum had slowed down, but someone else then pointed out that as they had been a member for a while, they had 'stopped learning' the new things, which, when new to a forum, every post and thread is fascinating and new to read, but, once that's all been read, there is less 'new stuff' to learn, hence the appearance of 'forum lag'. I'd say that is a comparable scenario to people initially saving money on a watch by not going to a scam site, but, once they've settled on a dealer, they tend to spend spend spend, so probably spend, in total, as much, if not more, than they originally might have done (although if it's on several watches, that is of course better value for money)

Just wanted to throw that out as it may be a factor people do not take into account. Hopefully, once my cheque clears tomorrow, I'll be able to upgrade, and thus begin my monthly zakat

[Edit to add]

Also, if someone only wants specific watches, or just a specific watch for their collection, once they have it, they have no need to rely on the forum to direct them to reputeable sources, hence my comment above about speciality articles retaining their interest more than just purchassing recommendations.

Curiously enough, the second subdial was chosen by OP as it was adding to fast readability of the watch.

With a second subdial you always know where the second hand approximately is, i.e. where to look for it.

On the contrary, a central second hand might be momentarily superimposed to the minute hand or the marks, and you might loose precious seconds before locating it and reading it.

One can feel the PAM look ugly, childish, or even ridicolous, but all details have a reason to be that way.

Until the Richemont-Vendome era, at least.

Oh I don't doubt it aids the visibility, as it gives the eye something to 'latch onto' rather than just 'looking for the sweeping hand', I just feel that the distinction of the extra dial creates an effect more like on a chronograph, which personally, I find cluttering. As for the date feature, while I admit they are useful, and, having been so used to having one on my watches, I caught myself looking to check the date on my 111h a few times, but, from a purely lazy point of view, I don't like having to manually re-set the date each month (when the watch is worn constantly) and, from an aesthetic point of view, find that the date window itself can 'disrupt' the dial, as it makes it asymetrical (something I have a borderling OCD issue with) It's a bit like the date window on the HBBs: Stuck in a place that looks like a design 'afterthought' rather than an intentional placement. Of course, as mentioned above, for all those things I would normally dislike on a watch, the one V showed, I think looks absolutely fantastic. The exception that proves the rule, one might say

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha...

Actually, I think I read somewhere that RC Cola makes their drink my simply mixing Coke and Pepsi in very strict proportions.

Awesome I found a 75/25 Pepsi/Coke mix the best, as it kept the taste and sweetness of the Pepsi, but with a little extra kick (I prefer Pepsi to Coke normally)