TeeJay

Well, seems Mr. Stark prefers BVLGARI. Both use the new in-house movement.

Awesome pics

At a glance, one could certainly think it was a Big Bang... If I recall, even Fossil have made a watch based on the style.

Really? I just don't see Robert Downey Jr. as a good superhero. Unless it were Crackman or DUIGuy or the like.... Maybe that's just me....

That's why he's perfect for the role: Tony Stark is an alcoholic.

A few facts to be able to buy on CQout.

Firstly a buyer must register with CQout, by giving their credit card details. They charge you 2 English Pounds .

Oh no, a company charging to be able to use it's services!!!

Some dealers, will refund the signup fee upon a first purchase... C'mon, it's two English Pounds, not twenty. People willingly pay more than two pounds for shipping, why not just consider it part of the price of the deal? Chances are, it's cheaper than you'd've been getting from the Cartel, so is that two pounds really such a hardship to pay? It's a one-off payment, it's not like you have to pay it again...

An email is sent to your email address , you must verify this by clicking on the link given.

Like with most forums...

Next before you are able to proceed you must verify your credit card details.

What happens is CQout debits your credit card with an unknown Euro amount, this takes about 2 days to even appear on your statement, when known, this amount must be given to CQout, your buying account is then active.

That was not a requirement when I registered. I would point out though, that it is something paypal require of its users who wish to 'validate' their accounts...

All types of payment are shown at the checkout, Easy Pay, Escrow, Moneybookers, Bank transfer,

Western Union, Master card/Visa credit cards.

Only not all of these are accepted by the merchant, in my case, I couldn`t pay with my credit card ,as it was not of the secure type ie, EasyPay , so you are directed to open up another credit card.

The checkout is simply showing the payment methods which CQout, as a site, support. The merchant has the right to use whatever method of payment they want you to use, to pay them for goods you want to purchase. If they don't want to accept paypal, or personal cheques, for example, they don't have to.

Contacted the seller only to be told that their moneybooker account was having problems and that they had to give a document to upgrade their account to a Business account.

Not the fault of CQout.

and you think some of OUR dealers are hard to deal with.

Not really. Of course, 'our' dealers, are not held accountable for their actions. Dealers on CQout ARE. Dealers with repeat negative feedback, get removed. Does that happen here?

My advice.......... STAY CLEAR, of CQOUT. It really isn`t worth the hassle.

NOT HAPPY JAN.

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience, but, what you're doing, is little more than acting like the guy who stands outside shops, warning customers not to go in, simply because they didn't get their own way. CQout works fine. It does not impose on people any more than any other business. I'd rather buy via CQout than with the Cartel. At least I know that I'll have an actual recourse with the dealer should their be a problem...

Agreed, they are using your computer as a 'zombie'. do you have up date virus protection?

It should be, but I'll run some checks just to be sure

What strikes me here is that they must first be attacking your computer to get your Email list and if that's the case you have been earmarked for individual attention.

Ken

I feel almost privelaged

I don't think it's anything as organized as that, I've heard that other scams, and even viruses, have been known to go from computer to computer, using different emails on each (picking up a new email relevent to each new recipient), but the same message. I think the really funny thing about it, is that it was someone I hadn't spoken to in years, and, when I actually replied (forwarding the message to them) the address needed adding to my contact list. That's how 'out of date' it was

If, on the other hand, I have been earmarked for individual attention, I'll just have to be extra vigilant

So I just checked my emails, and was shocked and surprized to see an email from an old friend, with this title: EMERGENCY HELP

Not someone I've spoken to in years, so the email itself was somewhat surprizing, but, when I opened it, this was the garbage inside:

Hello,

I am in a hurry writing this,I had a trip to Nigeria on the visiting

the (AFRICAN CULTURE) opening ceremony www.tinapa.com, Unfortunately for me all my money got stolen at the hotel where i lodged from the attack of some armed robbers and since then i have been without any money i am even owing the hotel here, so the hotel telephone service is disconnected,so i have only access to emails,my mobile phone can't work here so i didn't bring it along,I am facing a hard time here because i have no money on me. I am now owning a hotel bill of $750 and they wanted me to pay the bill soon else they will have to seize my bag and hand me over to the Hotel Management., I need this help from you urgently to help me back home, I need you to help me with the hotel bill and i will also need $500 to feed and help myself back home so please can you help me with sum of $1250 to sort out my problems here? I need this help so much and on time because i am in a terrible and tight situation here, I don't even have money to feed myself for a day which means i had been starving so please understand how urgent i needed your help.

I will appreciate what so ever you can afford to send me for now and I

promise to pay back your money as soon as i return home and I have already spoken to this man because he is the hotel manager that helps people to receive.Below are his

information.

Name of receiver:Adebiyi Emmanuel

Address of receiver: Lagos,Nigeria.

Secret Question: What For

Secret Answer: Ticket Fee

MTCN:????

Please let me have the information below as soon as the money is sent.

Name and address of sender:

Mtcn/Reference Number:

I am looking forward to your positive response.

Thank you.

J****

I cannot begin to express how angry I am that scamming Nigerians would use someone's email like this to try and con money out of people. I don't think a scam could get much lower than this. I hope they receive their 'just rewards' for their actions.

What let me know that it wasn't my friend? Well, dialogue and grammar asside, one would think that a girl stuck in a foreign country, desperate for money, would contact her parents for money first, not someone she hasn't spoken to in years

Be warned folks...

@ UJ

Sorry to hear about your difficulties, that's no small chunk of change to be down, especially when it involves goods which are supposed to be QCd prior to delivery... Best of luck with getting the situation resolved, and, as I've never said it before now, welcome to the forum

This made me chuckle:

his peculiar interpretation of what a Panerai looks like.

Can we please accept that his products are tripe? - yes they are different than the regular rep offerings but he is making fools of a lot of people. I have sent him numerous emails and PM offering to assist in improving the accuracy of his products but he has never had the manners to respond to a single message. He is not interested in improving anything as long as he has a bunch of supporters who won't speak up, lest they end up being blacklisted like me.

While I agree entirely with what you're saying, I'd have to point out that when it comes to bringing dealers to task, there is often more support for the dealers (regardless of the issue) than support for those trying to get things improved

I have to strongly disagree here. The NYT like all media organizations is run by human beings whose interests, beliefs, and politics must necessarily affect editorial decisions. They choose to publish certain articles over others based not only on relevance or importance but on politics as well - all of the media does it because total objectivity is an absolute impossibility. That said, it would be wrong to extrapolate from there that they have a disdain for the truth and fabricate content in order to manipulate their audience (that is what propaganda does). The staff at the NYT, as human beings, are of course imperfect, but they are also among the most serious, sincere, and honest journalists in the world.

China is a hot topic in the media because it is the new global economic powerhouse, is poised to someday eclipse the United States, and because its staggering transformation in the last decade necessarily creates conditions and phenomena that are immensely topical. At some level do resentment, fear, or jealousy motivate and/or create demand for many articles about adverse conditions in China? Undoubtedly. Does that mean they rise to the level of propaganda? Absolutely not.

I also want to make a point that has already been made before: even if it is true that the assembly of these watches occurs in non-traditional "factory" conditions such as in homes or small workshops, somewhere the parts are being produced in large scale machine shops that employ equipment lacking in many if not all of the most basic safety features mandated by law in the United States and other developed nations. I recently read a blog written by a young Asian-American female doctor who has been working in China and the number of work-related injuries, amputations, and maimings (due mostly to unsafe equipment) is staggering.

As I have said repeatedly, like others I will not shun reps until I see specific evidence of child slavery being employed by those that manufacture them. But neither will I try to whitewash, minimize, or write off as media propaganda what is going on in many areas of China. This is not a judgment on China's culture because what is happening there has little to do with culture and everything to do with rapid industrialization. Approximately one hundred years ago when the United States was undergoing a similar transformation from an agrarian economy to a a manufacturing economy, all of the same conditions and abuses were seen and it is certainly accurate to say that worker exploitation is far from dead in America.

That's cool, and I agree, there isn't any falsehood involved. I just consider articles like this to be propoganda, simply because of their emotive potential (which is unlikely to be unintentional) and how they (as articles) fit into the current political landscape

I think by putting together the posts of Dave, Ken and POTR, we get a realistic view of the situation:

- Reps are not being made in what we in the west, would consider 'factories', but built in back rooms, on the family dinner table.

- Busts in the industry show the arrest of consenting adults. Given that these arrests are made public to 'scare people away' from reps, surely showing photos of kids being hauled away would be more emotive... Why not show that? Simple answer: Because they aren't building these reps...

- It is more likely, that child slave labor, is being used in production lines for mass-purchassed items, such as DVD players, rather than rarity purchases, like replica watches...

Sure, the issue needs addressing, but, as I mentioned before, there's not anything that we can actually do about it, which will have an effect, but, it's more likely that our 'other' consumer purchasses (DVD players, etc) are more likely to be made by child slave labor, rather than our replica watches...

My own .2c:

- Right now, people have it in for China. There's no denying it. Sure, as a country, it might have its problems, but, what right do we in the west, have to force our western values on their society, and make them change? None.

- Replica goods are frequently linked in such articles, as 'supporting terrorism'. Terrorism is the 21st Century equivelent of Communism, and the irrational fear of it, which existed in the McCarthy era. Sure, there are terrorists in the world. Sure, there are Muslim Extremists who want to blow themselves up in the name of Allah. But, chances are, it's not going to be happening in your neighbourhood any time soon, and it's pretty unlikely that funding from the rep industry goes towards it. By writing this article, the authors are probably trying, subconsciously, to get people to thinking (from all those other articles on the replica goods industry) that China supports (in some backward way) 'terrorism'.

Articles like this, are nothing more than anti-China/anti-terrorist propoganda. Now, I'm not for one nanosecond suggesting that people should support China's human rights abuses, nor that people should support terrorism. What I am pointing out, is that propoganda (of any kind) cannot be read and taken entirely at face value. It must be examined from all sides. Also, one must remember who propoganda is aimed at: The uninformed masses who know no better. People informed about a subject, see right through propoganda as they know the truth about its lies.

Fight the power, Komrades

I am sorry if this offends anyone, but I really think the members here should consider a boycott until this is somehow vetted.

I'm certainly not offended, but I don't think a boycott by members would actually have any impact or do anything to remedy the situation itself. All it would do, is maybe ease people's consciences, by knowing they aren't receiving such goods, which is fine, but, as before, doesn't actually do anything to remedy the situation itself. I'm all for action, providing such action will be productive and achieve a goal.

Thanks for raising the issue though

What am I into...

Film Making

Model Making (anything 'craft' related really)

Reading

Travelling

Swimming

Martial Arts

The list goes on

You seem to have an argumentative style reminiscent of TeeJay... maybe even shades of a Pugwash

I only argue a point if I have something valid to contribute, or am reasonably sure the point I'm making is correct. I don't argue for the sake of it

It's a fine line, to be sure, and sadly, one which varies from person to person. What one person finds acceptable, another will likely not. Ultimately, that depends what they want out of the watch in question: Do they want 'a nice looking watch', or do they want a flawless 1:1 rep, which they can pass off as being gen... The intent and requirement certainly plays a part in what flaws might be tolerated...

Personally, I think the only level of quality assurance, should be basic mechanical 'competence': ie hands don't fall off, crown/screws doesn't/dont strip, hands move reasonably smoothly, rather than getting jerky at random places round the dial, and time-keeping should be reasonable (although not necessarily as precice as COSC standard) Water resistance.... Tricky issue. Some watches, by the nature of the design, tend to have less weakpoints in the case for flooding, so they should have a reasonable degree of water reisistance. Yet, there are reports of watches flooding under relatively passive immersion. With a watch which should be water resistant by virtue of the design and it's construction, such flooding isn't really an acceptable scenario. Lume. Again, a tricky, and very personal issue. Does the person plan to actually need to check the time in a darkened room? If not, what does it matter if the lume is poor? Sure, it's not accurate to gen, but, at the end of the day, if it's not a required feature, does it matter if it's not present? I've found the lume on most of my reps to be adequate for my needs (although some have been better than others, and, my most frequently worn watch, I would like to improve the lume, simply because it is a feature I use daily)

Anything other than that, I'd consider as a bonus if the watch has it. In terms of QC, I think that if someone says they QC a watch, they should do so. I've no problem buying from drop-shippers, they've always corrected incorrect shipments. Yes, it's an expense, but, at the end of the day, still cheaper than buying a gen. I don't like the idea of someone saying they QC a watch, and then not doing so. Personally, I find it hard to believe that a watch, which tells the time at the source, mysteriously 'stops working' during transit. I'm not saying it's impossible, I just find it unlikely.

At the end of the day, we are purchassing rep goods, so less than perfection, as mentioned above, is part of that. That said, with the levels of quality which are around, it's not unreasonable to expect similar levels on a consistent basis. In a way, these watches make me think of shops which sell 'factory reject' stock, ie T-Shirts with a few loose threads, socks which aren't quite the right size etc etc: For the most part, a product which is good enough for everyday use, just not quite 100% perfect. I admit, some people do have unreasonable expectations of products, and ultimately, such folks will never be satisfied with anything less than perfection. Those folks, would likely be best to avoid reps, as invariably, they will wind up disappointed with their purchase. I think as long as folks have reasonable expectations, and as long as dealers provide a reasonable product (ie something which basically 'works' and isn't falling apart) then people should be happy all round

Congratulations

Uhm guys, shall we leave 'Cartel'- talk to a cartel-thread?

The OP only wanted to share his nice meeting with Angus - who is not in the Cartel. So to avoid further confusion let's get back on topic and enjoy the stories from China

You're absolutely right.

Promoter, my apologies for taking your thread OT

Well "TJ"

Why the ""'s? Is that not my name?

you have much stronger feelings about this than I!

I have strong feelings about the issue, because I care about this community, and am sick of seeing it abused.

Particularly about the waterproofing thing etc

Simply because those are proven examples, of when the Cartel dealers have lied to buyers, and charged for services which were not provided.

I would agree that people are generally mislead into thinking they are the only safe alternative but that is not their fault that is fueled by members and the fact they are trusted sellers.

And I would entirely agree with you there. It might not be their fault, but that still does not mean it gives them the right to misadvertise product, and lie to and manipulate clients. If anything, those things should happen even less.

Ok some members will agree with everything as they think they need to ingratiate themselves in the hope of special deals etc.

In anything like these forums you will always get people selective reading you only have to see the repetitive questions for that and if enough people keep saying this is the best way then they believe it.

That said the majority of members are happy with sellers on here or at least don't say otherwise so what are people to think.

I would agree with those points too. The point being though, that these forums are supposed to protect people from scammers and scam sites. If a dealer starts delivering poor quality goods or services, then they should be removed from the listings, so people would konw that they are no longer to be trusted. I've only ever seen one dealer banned from this forum, and that ban had nothing to do with the service he was providing clients. It would appear the dealers are being judged on a 'balance' system - More good feedback than bad feedback = they're still trustable, and worthy of paying to be dealers. Personally, I would rather see something in place which would view the severity of negative services, such as the B&R incident, the reports of un-waterproofed watches, etc, and if they could be seen to form a pattern (which they do) then that'd be that. But, that's just my own opinion, and I can't insist that it be acted upon.

The admin have vetted these vendors so from the point of view of the general population they don't need to do anything else, you have to remember that 90% of people need spoon feeding and it would seem from what I read are incapable of making a decision without full board approval even down to buying a band for their watch.

Again, I agree, I just think it rather scary that educated adults need to be treated in such a manner.

This is life ! You will always get the people that choose to follow the crowd and have a quiet life and those that will search for something out of the the norm.

Of course, but, if 'the crowd' are being lied to, then they should realize that and seek other alternatives.

What I personally think is that Admin should take a deposit from these vendors of say $5000/$10000 then they could offer the protection members think they can offer. Recently in my opinion there has been a lot of trusted sellers not playing the game or simply not performing if these people had $5000 at risk they would perform I promise you and in the event of total failing, Admin could do more than put pressure on them with emails/Phone calls etc as this would seem to be not enough to get them to perform of course Admin can ban or suspend them but I see that as an admission of defeat as no further sanctions are possible after that. and people are still in the same boat either waiting or accepting the fact that they are not getting it.

I think that's an excellent idea. I don't think it would ever be implemented, but it's definitely a good one. Ultimately though, at the end of the day, the admin have made clear that they take no responsibility for what happens between buyers and dealers, but are merely 'facilitators of trade'.

I myself beleive that a certain level of security is afforded members by the system but I don't think it's only from Admin in particular but by members postings and reviews .

That would be true, if people were also posting negative reviews. Okay, I know there are negative reviews, but not many. Some would argue that that's simply a sign that there are very few dissatisfied customers. However, having seen how people rally round to defend a dealer who is receiving a negative review, I think it's also a likely case, that people are not posting negative reviews for fear of getting flamed by the forum, and getting the dealer mad, so lessening the chances of getting their issue resolved. I don't think that's a healthy state of affairs...

I am neither justifying or defending anyone!

I never said that you were, I merely asked what you were basing your judgement of the Cartel's 'status' on.

I am just making a point that the cartel thing is all hype and in reality they have no more pull with the factories than the man on the moon! price fixing lies etc are an altogether different thing and something I have not made and have no comment on. I only used Josh as an example to outline just how small a fish they are in the big sea but did fell a need to qualify my statement about wrong watches being sent.

That's a fair enough point about small fish, and in the grand scheme of things, yes, they likely are small fish. However, in the small scale, ie these forums, in a small enough pond, even a small fish, becomes a big fish, and that's the case of what we have in these forums: Big fish, in a small pond. (well, more accurately, small fish in tiny pond ) However, that has the effect of giving them clout in this community. Most notably, when someone points out a failing on their part, many are quick to defend them (not that that's what you were doing) There are also those, who are quick to defend them, so as not to endanger their 'easy supply' of reps, rather than having to go out into the wider areas of the community, and source their watches from dealers where there is less feedback and less support. To me, that says that some people just can't think outside the box and need spoonfeeding. I bought my first rep from what is considered (by these forums) to be a 'scam site'. Despite getting ripped off for the price, I certainly don't consider them scam artists, as they actually provided the product as promised. Sure, had I looked further, I would have found a better price, but, that's life... My next rep purchases, were from a dealer who this community has little time for: Applewave. A drop shipper. So the first watch he sent (which I ordered for my wife) wasn't what had been ordered, it was still a nice watch. He gave me the option to keep the watch, and accept a discount on re-ordering the original watch, which I declined. I said I'd return the incorrect watch, in return for the correct watch, and asked if the discount could be transfered to another purchase (which was for myself) Wasn't a problem at all. My wife still has the J12 somewhere, and, being quartz, it still keeps excellent time. Of course, the 'ceramic bracelet' wasn't up to much, and it's since been placed on a white leather bund strap. The watch I ordered for myself, an Omega Seamaster, was pretty inaccurate, but, in itself, a nice watch. I've since moved on to other dealers, but, in all instances, any errors have been dealt with swiftly and professionally. The only serious issues I have had, was when buying from a 'forum recommended' dealer. I guess it's just a case of swings and roundabouts with this hobby, but, there is a bigger range of dealers out there than the few who choose to pay to advertise on these forums, not that they are ever as well recognized or received. by the masses...

f they have the item and buyers want it what is the crime in getting as much as they can for it?

Ignoring the illegality of the reps themselves for a moment, of course there's no crime in getting as much as they can for it. There is however, the issue of making charges (such as for waterproofing) for services which are not performed, or knowingly advertising something as X (having a Swiss Movement) and selling Y (Asian movement) (For the record, I have no issue with Asian movements. I love Asian movements. I have Asian movements in the majority of my watches, and am not prepared to pay double cost just for a 'Swiss movement' which does the exact same thing just as well, my issue is with deliberate misadvertising.) If someone genuinely doesn't know what they are selling, then fair enough (and afterall, some of the dealers out there are not watch enthusiasts, they are just businessmen selling items) but, when they have been involved (to some degree) in the construction process of that watch, then they should know precisely what is being used, so in such instances, ignorance is no defence, as they simply are not ignorant of the details, and just hoping that no one will call them on the issue. When they are called on the issue, that's when you get the "This is a hard business" sob stories to try and justify their lies. That is what myself and others, found unacceptable.

they are selling fake watches that the buyer has the choice to buy or not. Free enterprise has to work for everyone if the other sellers can't source the watch then they can't sell it if they can source the watch and want to reduce their profit then they are also free to do that, by the same token if the cartel as you choose to call them have an item that is not for sale with another seller they must be allowed to set the price as they wish. The option is still with the buyer to buy or not regardless of price or who has it for sale.

I didn't name the Cartel, I simply use the term. Of course, people are free to buy from whoever they want. But, this goes back to the point I made above, if people think that the Cartel are the only reliable source, then they won't think to look elsewhere. Now, that's not really the fault of the Cartel if the person doesn't think to look for alternative sources, but, it is their fault for giving the impression that they are the only source (as one member was once told by email by a Cartel dealer) Also, yes, they can set their prices as they choose, if people don't like the price, they have the right not to purchase, but again, if they don't know about other dealers, or are lead to believe that the Cartel are the only source, then they are likely to pay that price to get the item they want, so yes, totally legitimate business practice, but thrown in with enough misdirection to make the client part with their cash. All the while, under the banner of 'trusted dealer', and with a forum full of happy buyers ready to back them, should someone dare to mention, that their brand new, waterproofed sub, leaks like a seive any time it gets wet. To be honest, the Cartel are much less active on this forum than they used to be, but, that doesn't mean they aren't still around, and making money off the community.

I really think this Cartel thing is overplayed!

And you base that on what? The existence of the Cartel is not up for dispute, and nor are the proven past incidences of mislabelled stock, or times when water-proofing was paid for, and the received watch leaking. Precicely how much 'clout' they may have with the factories is certainly an unknown quantity, but, there can be no doubt that they have, in the past, led people to believe that watches were only available from them, so not to search elsewhere, when infact, those watches were available elsewhere (to some dealers) Is it a coincidence that there have been complaints made about Cartel dealers, yet they are still able to maintain a position on these forums as 'trusted dealers'? As for them taking care if issues with shipping, of course they will. What kind of dealer does not deal with such issues in a timely fashion? They are not the only dealers capable of delivering excellent customer services or products, but they are the only dealers shown on numerous occasions to have either attempted to manipulate, or outright lied, to people about their products. That is not the kind of behaviour which should be defended or justified.

Peace. Welcome to the forum.

TeeJay,

I signed up in Mid March in this forum, Mid Feb in two others, and Mid Jan on another (I can guarantee you though that I have read damn near every post in all four forums )

I have also immersed myself fully into this hobby. I have purchased twelve reps since January, all from various people and dealers, and I'm still going strong. I only buy from dealers/sources with good reviews, and like everyone else, hope for the best.

I think it's awesome that you've brought yourself 'up to speed' on things so quickly, and such dilligence is admirable indeed

For instance, regardless of quality or price, I would not buy from a "certain" dealer. I have seen from my research that he has certain customer service issues. He may be the best guy in the world, and have a great record of sales and quality, but I'm not willing to take the chance I catch him on a bad day. He, however, has access to MBW. Well, I'll wait until I go to Thailand, or until a member sells one to get my MBW sub

I'm pretty sure I know who you mean, and customer service issues non-withstanding, it was the attitude with which he addressed members of the forum which made me know I'd never want to do business with him. Indeed, he might have access to good stock, but, he's not the only source of such subs, and indeed, why take the chance of getting him on a bad day (of which he seems to have many... ) when there are other sources around. Indeed, maybe picking one up in Thailand will prove a good adventure. Personally, I have a plan (very long term) to travel to the US to buy a 1976 Camaro to ship back to the UK, where I can work to convert it into this:

Sure, it could be tied in with a holiday, but such adventures definitely make life more interesting Of course, as Master Yoda said, "Excitement. Adventure. A Jedi craves not these things..."

Good point on the Cartel. This is where I believe the buyer has all the power. You can be sure that the minute I'm stung by the Cartel, my business will go elsewhere. I like it just like it is... a couple reputable indy dealers, a couple of reputable Cartel dealers. Lot's of selection. I'm the type of guy who won't fly Delta Air anymore because they took my 90+K miles without warning, and then sent me a flyer to buy back my miles at some ridiculous price. They lost my business forever, United and American gained a loyal customer.

That's a fair point. I would point out, that there were several people, who, despite good dealings with the Cartel, upon hearing their business practices, vowed to immediately stop buying from them, even though they personally, had had good dealings with them. I guess this was a situation where people were looking beyond their own experiences, and looking to what was best for the community as a whole

Andrew and Josh are the two guys I send my friends to when they want to buy a rep. Reasonable price, good selection, well laid out site, online payment, reliable shipping. Easy transaction.

All those things are available from the non-Cartel Indy dealers...

If they want more

Such as charging for waterproofing which is never carried out, then yup, the Cartel can definitely provide those things

Look at me now.... Member in all four main forums, a ton of watches, a full mod/repair toolkit set up, learning how to repair watches... As my wife and kids say... obsessed with watches.

Awesome, I'l look forward to seeing your future projects I have to admit, there's nothing as satisfying as doing something with a watch yourself, putting it all back together, and being able to look at it and know "I did that..."

As for Angus, I've heard nothing but good about him, I'm looking for an excuse to buy from him. Sounds like I may have one soon!

Who needs excuses

I am envious that the OP was able to actually meet one of the reputable dealers. I'd love that opportunity, or the opportunity for a factory tour.

But would that factory be a production factory of Western Standards (in which case, various machines and whatnot doing their things are very cool to see) or, would the 'factory', be anything more than a family crowded round the dinner table, building watches and saying "Please pass the lube" (for gasgets, of course ) ? According to some reports, that's how many rep items are made

let me caveat... promotersf, don't want to hijack your extremely informative and very good thread, and, this rant is not against ANGUS (or any non cartel member)

I think you all take this "cartel" thing too seriously. Bottom line, these are REPS. The dealers are in business. We are part of a community (the four rep forums), but business, is business. Just because we chat online, and banter across the forums, does not mean that the dealers are not making a living off this. I started buying "reps" back in the 80's. I was buying them in the places that reps were bought back then "Far East, Middle East, Near East, Med". They topped anything available in the US... But they sucked.

I was turned on to these boards by a friend. My first two purchases were from the "Cartel". Got exactly what I expected, for the price I expected, with great support and communication. I'm aware of the other dealers, and will use them them when they offer me something I want. But.... I have been shopping online for 20 years (yes, 20...) and there is a lot to be said with ease and convenience. Too many of the NON CARTEL dealers make it too difficult to shop (only accept this form of payment; only communicate via skype; serious medical issues so I can't get back to you for six months; yes I know you sent me $400, but I'm an eccentric dealer and only reply to PM's on the first full moon of the year, so suck it up and wait...) You get the idea.

I for one am sick of reading of dealers that drop of the face of the earth, for months at a time, then resurface to scream bloody murder about how the customer's are wronging them... with the support of "long-time" forum members.

Business is business. I'm all about survival of the fittest. If the NON CARTEL truly offered better value for the money than the CARTEL... the CARTEL would be out of business. Instead, both the CARTEL and NON CARTEL rely on word of mouth of the forums to keep them in business. I'm very happy with the service I receive form the cartel (for a couple bucks more?). I am even happier with the service I receive from members... I buy most of my reps from members (8 of 10 in the last two months).

For someone who only signed up to the forum mid-March, you certainly have a wide range of knowledge. This is good, knowledge is power. Or so they say...

I agree entirely with your point about dealers who disappear, then reappear with serious medical issues (Not that ThaT Kould be refering to anyone )

I would point out though, that, while the Cartel are only providing a product, and in theory, people have the freedom to buy from whoever they want, with muscling out the competition, that reduces overall buyer choices and forces people into a set course of action. I may be incorrect, but, I believe Watchmark was offering HBBs for less than the Cartel were charging. Another issue people have with the Cartel, is deliberately inaccurate listings (advertising Swiss movementts, and knowingly selling Asian movements) and offering products/services, which were not actually provided (offering waterproofing/servicing for a fee, and sending a watch which was untouched and leaked like a seive) How did the Cartel respond to these incidents? By holding their hands up, and saying "You're right, we were lying..." or by trying to justify their behaviours by saying the rep industry carries risks, and that it's not fair to expect them to take all the risk. Well, as they chose to enter the business, that does make it their responsibility, and one which they should shoulder like professionals, not hand down as an excuse to clients when caught in a lie. That is the issue with the Cartel, and, all the nice, shiny watches in the world won't make up for those behaviours. Then there's the issue of drop-shipping... Not a problem as such, but, if someone is a drop-shipper, they should say so, not claim they are not. As far as I know, from what previous discussions highlighted, was that Angus was the only member of the Cartel who did not drop-ship.

BOTTOM LINE: NON CARTEL... here's your challenge...... I want the best quality/accuracy Super Ocean Steel Fish, cheaper (shipped), than the cartels, with assurances of quality, and guarantee for shipping.... If you can deliver..... SOLD.

I'll be interested to see if any of the other dealers choose to accept this challenge. Not that they actually need to, afterall, why should they prove themself? If people are happy to buy from them, and discuss their products here with pride, then that's proof enough that the Cartel are not the only source of good quality watches

[Edit to add]

If Angus has removed himself from the Cartel, that is indeed excellent news

Great to know who is doing what wearing those lovely watches...

I'm a TV series director (mostly programs for people ages 15 - 30) made a film a few years ago - starting a new one soon (yes, there will be at least one watch close up in it!)

Sounds awesome, might I have seen any of your projects here in the UK? (maybe on satelite?) I studied film-making at college, never took it further, but am still interested in the 'behind the scenes' aspects of the industry

There is a fine line between gaudy and downright disgusting............

BTW, that used to be a Breitling Bentley.

Absolutely sickening that someone would choose to do that to a watch... I mean, fair enough, what people choose to do with their own stuff is up to them, but f*ck, that is a disgusting result... Further proof that having a load of money does not automatically equate to having good taste...

Glad you had a good trip, and some interesting little anecdotes

One thing confused me: I was under the impression that the Cartel consisted of Andrew, Angus, Joshua and King. Has Angus 'broken away' from the Cartel? If so, has this impacted his ability to source goods which previously, the Cartel focussed on, and were able to keep exclusive to them through buying power on their part?

LOL. this has to be the highlight. lets start another thread "watches in porn movies".. haha. I was wondering when someone would bring this up.

To be honest, most actors don't tent to wear anything nicer than an SS Walmart Special. I've not seen any decent watches in movies other than Rocco's PAM (and a few fake Submariners (I say 'fake' rather than 'replica', as they were such poor quality, they were pretty obvious)

A gold star for you thanks to the "American Psycho" reference! GREAT, GREAT movie. On an OT note, we're having a "Big Lebowski" party with some folks from the neighborhood this weekend. We're having a dinner and then watching the movie and drinking White Russians! Too fun.

Absolutely awesome Try not to get so drunk that anyone feels the need to recreate the scene where the Dude's rug is 'soiled' Awesome film, I'm not sure what makes me laugh more: "I'll suck your c0ck for a thousand dollars...", "Just because we're bereaved, that doesn't make us saps!" or "This is what happens when you f*ck a stranger in the ass!"

I only have PAMs, so my choice process is a bit different from everyone elses. I pick it based on the strap. If I'm wearing black/gray pants, a watch with a black strap, if I'm wearing khaki or brown, a brown strap. My incoming 064 will be the jeans/t-shirt weekender. Of course, my dress code is business casual, so no worries about fitting beneath shirtsleeves, etc. I just unbutton the cuffs or roll them up a turn or two...

Likewise, I tend to roll my cuffs back, or wear T-Shirts, yet I can't stand buttondown shirts with short sleeves. Something very wrong about those...

Might it be an 069??

It should be the Cazzomir

I'd get a PAM 104. (Am thinking about getting one myself) The 050 looks really nice, but, at 40mm, a bit small, compared to the larger 104. Also, the 104 dial is 'better balanced' and more symetrical