TeeJay

I have read all the posts (from all three forums) and I think it is a delicate issue that is being handled by the admins as the culture of their respective forums dictate. Think about it, if we all were just alike and everyone had the same ideals and principles then there would only be one forum. I am not saying one forum is better than the next, I just think that members will gravitate to the forum that most closely represents and mirrors their beliefs.

If enough members of one forum put enough pressure on the admins for a change, then the admins can either enact that change or lose forum membership.

I mean no disrespect by any of this.

I don't think it's possible to take any of that comment as disrespectful, and I think you are absolutely right about people gravitating towards the forum which best suits their personalities.

However, the reason why I feel so obliged to ask these questions, is that we (as a community, and this forum in particular) are often told two things:

1) The forum exists to create a safe haven for buyers, so people do not have to use unscrupulous dealers. From that perspective, I cannot understand why unscrupulous dealers who have been proven so (as in this case) would be allowed to remain as dealers, when their business ethics ultimate put them against the principle of what is a safe haven for the buyers.

2) Contributions/Donations/Subscriptions are necessary to pay for the technical services which make the forum viable.

As the people who are 'paying the bills' (some more so and some less so than others) I feel that the membership are entitled to explanations and justifications with regards policies which affect the 'safety' of the community they are paying for, as with the above point: If it is something which affects them, they have a right to know, just as other tax payers have the right to know how their taxes are being spent.

Some very good questions. I think the issue is complicated. If we ask the admin of any forum to police too much then we will have little freedom to choose for ourselves. I think that Jandrew offers a great selection of reps at good prices, they seem to be playing games with the hot watches of the moment.

As long as the forums allow debate on the issue of price fixing, then the members can make their own mind up once we are all informed of the overal situation. In the long run, if they are trying to price fix there will always be one dealer that can get around it, offer lower prices and steal their business. Silix is doing it already with a $100 lower price on the APROO (sec at 12) so he has the b*lls to stand up to it.

To censor the debate is completely against what the forums are meant to stand for, so I am somewhat surprised to see that happen at RG.

I think that you are absolutely right, but, if Jandrew's areas were removed, people would still be able to track them down and buy from them. That would not take away anyone's right to choose to do business with them. It would, however, send a clear message, that any kind of 'unacceptable behaviour' on a dealer's part (which relates to their business practices) will result in the loss of dealership privelages (and this is a privelage, as these forums do funnel a lot of business to them)

I quite agree, the way RG has handled the issue is not the most 'comforting', but equally, neither is 'remaining neutral'. TO me, and again, this is just my feeling on the situation, but not backing up the stance of RWI, makes all this talk of 'inter-forum co-operation' nothing more than lip service and platitudes to keep the peace, rather than a true alliance (which it should be) As I said in the other thread on the topic. RWI have drawn the line in the sand. Personally, I feel we should all be backing them for the reasons they made the choice (regardless of who the sanctions are against), not playing the 'neutrality card', as that simply raises the questions which I felt compelled to ask above...

Very fair questions, and I predict that the Admin team will see this as a logical set of questions to ask, and not as a criticism or stirring up trouble. I also believe that you should not be apologising for asking the questions, they are questions that are playing on many of the members here, whichever side of the fence you sit on with regards to certain dealers. Your posts are well thought out TJ, and I am again sure that the Admin team will acknowledge your tactful demeanour and not take it the wrong way.

Thanks, I hope T does take the questions in the spirit they're intended, as I genuinely do not understand the reaction (or rather lack of). Indeed, I suspect these are questions which many may be thinking, but maybe not comfortable asking. Well, I'm not entirely comfortable asking them, but feel that they do need to be asked, and worry that had I not asked them, no one else would...

I give more credit to the RWG ADMIN! I'm pretty sure they'll look at TJ's post as constructive and a representation of the community at large! RWG is not Washington DC with lots of lobbyist buying the US Government!

Here's fingers crossed that T does view them as constructive, and be able to help me understand the situation better

TJ...very fair questions you have asked...I support you in asking them...but on the other hand I doubt you'll get any sincere reply on them...

there has always been talks about the forums protecting it's members from being scammed, or from being charged too high prices for reps...but this time the ADMIN team didn't in any kind given a reply to this whole issue...

maybe this post will be set invisible or deleted...like it happened on RG (I am really disappointed by the ADMIN team over there by the actions they took in regard to this issue...) - however, we all see the numerous sponsorship of the forum, both RWI and RWG made by the JAndrew team...free member raffles for new VIP members...and so on....

let's see if you (we) get some answers...

Thanks for the support, amigo

Without wanting to badmouth RG, the screenshots provided did show that they didn't want to mess with the Cartel (although the actual reason for not wanting to tangle was never actually given) so I think it's a reasonable conclusion, that they either endorse the Cartel's behaviour, or are being 'compelled' to turn a blind eye (politest way I can think of putting it)

As above, I'm not out to stir trouble, but I genuinely cannot understand how a forum which is based on the ethos of protecting buyers from unscrupulous dealers, can take no action against dealers who have been proven to be unscrupulous, regardless of their popularity. It has to be one rule for all, not one rule for some, another for others... I've found the whole thing very disappointing. Not a case of being disappointed because I want the Cartel gone, but disappointed that nothing is (apparently) being done against dealers who have been proven to resort to methods which are un-justifiable...

Please understand, that I am not doing this out of any 'agenda' or desire to cause trouble, stir things up, etc, this is with regards something which I genuinely cannot understand, and simply cannot comprehend. I am asking these questions here, rather than in PM or in the Platinum Section, because it is something which affects the whole community, and, to be honest, something which affects other members more than it does me, so I feel everyone is as entitled to the answers than I am, in fact, they are probably more entitled to them than I am.

The comments I make, I would rather not debate, as they have already been proven factually accurate, so I mention them only so it is possible to appreciate how I am viewing the situation and what my perspective is. At the very least, it might make it easier to correct my misunderstanding

Following the recent postings and threads on RWI, it has become clear that the Cartel have tried to use 'strong-arm' tactics to intimidate smaller dealers, and, as a result, they have had their dealer sections removed from RWI. There has been so much talk recently about inter-forum co-operation, better relations between the forums, and a whole load of good things. It's bringing new faces round the campfire, so new advice and perspectives. Bearing this spirit of inter-forum co-operation in mind, I find myself compelled to the following questions.

1. Is the behaviour, which the Cartel was banned for, something which the administrators of this forum consider acceptable or something which should be supported?

i) If so, please explain why?

ii) If not, why have their sales sections remained in place?

2. Does the Cartel have any influence in the administration of this forum? (I'm sorry I have to ask this question, but it is the only reason I personally can see, for why the Cartel have not been similarly sanctioned, as on RWI, namely for behaviour which throws their whole 'moral compass and business practices' into question)

3. What sanctions do the administrators plan to put into effect against the cartel so as not to allow them to think their behaviour towards such smaller dealers is tollerated?

Again, my apologies for having to ask these questions, I know that, in terms of contributions, mine have not been the largest, but, I feel that this is an issue which relates to all members of this community, regardless of their level of contribution, and, as much as I hate having to say this, I do not like the idea of the money which I gladly pay towards forum costs, to (albeit indirectly) give the Cartel a place to operate, or a ready supply of customers who may not be aware of their business practices.

Once more, my most sincere apologies, but following the result of the discussion on this matter, as I said above, it is something which I simply do not understand, as it seems to go against the very ethos of this community: Protecting buyers, from unscrupulous dealers...

So let me get this straight... getting too "enthusiastic" with the hair dryer can wreck the watch?

I don't know if a hairdryer can generate the same heat as a daylight bulb, but, I once put a POS SMP under a daylight bulb to dry condensation from the inside of the case. The lume aged about 50 years in 50 minutes, and the plastic movement holder warped from the heat. The result of the warped holder, was that the rotor was no longer able to spin freely, thus the watch was no longer self-winding, and had to be manually wound. I'm not sure if a hairdryer could generate this intensity of heat, but I've always been wary of hot things (childhood accident with a restaurant hot plate, which I still have the scar on my hand from, 22 years later. If only there'd been compo suits back then, I'd've made some crazy money for such an enduring injury )

Anyhoo, totally stripping the watch won't take more than five minutes, and is a good time to re-set the time to test the watch's accuracy

PS When replacing the crystal, if you don't have a crystal press, simply put a T-Shirt on a solid table, place the crystal 'dome side' down on the shirt, position the case, with your thumbs between the lugs (removing the bracelet makes this whole thing a lot easier) and then, keeping your arms and thumbs locked, use your shoulders to transfer your weight forwards in a rolling motion, till you hear the crystal 'pop' back into place

I never thought about that Tee Makes perfect sense.

I'll try it next time.

It doesn't take long, and is quite fun to do, as it's a very simple 'mod' for anyone first getting to grips with things

TeeJay's method is proven 100% working.

Thanks for the endorsement, Takashi-San

Not a bad idea !

Thanks, it certainly saves the 'fun' of trying to get the bezel and spring back in place

Here's best wishes for a swift and full recovery. Take things easy, and chin up

The easiest method, is to completely strip the watch, pop the crystal out from the back, and then very very gently, from the back, tweak up the inner edge of the insert until it loosens enough to lift off without bending. Removing the movement is easy, as is popping the crystal. Putting it back together again isn't particularly challenging either Best of luck

What i bring to this discussion is my own feelings and experience.

i was trying to say that most of us are not privi to the back door dealings

of black market merchants across the globe. (apparently Dave 123 might be)

I am not naive- of course i beleive that Josh and Andrew (and Bill Gates)

would try to manipulate the market to their advantage. Nor do I believe all of the claims;

for example- the ETA issue vs. clones. Like many of us, I came here late in the game.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean that you don't believe all of the claims? If you mean with regards the B&R Fiasco, they were caught labelling movements as one thing, when they were something else. In the end, the closest to an admission, was when Andrew said that yes, they did have the other movements in, but they were known in China by the other name. There are numerous reports of people paying extra for a watch to be waterproofed, and receiving watches which leaked when they got wet. When someone 'arrived in the game' is no excuse for not educating one's self about these discussions. I don't mean to be offish or abrupt, but I am not prepared to debate with you wether the Cartel are, or are not unscrupulous, as the evidence of this is long established, that they are unscrupulous. It has simply taken this long for a forum to have the balls to stand up to them.

I was used to paying $1000 for so called solid 18k gold reps with 27 jewel movements!

I am used to be lied to in this game. Not to condone it, rather by comparison I find

Josh a relative saint.

As for Eurotimez- not to knock him, but he seems to be enjoying a honeymoon around here.

Perhaps because he is fairly new as a dealer. I bought 1 watch from him which turned out

to be a POS! (Daytona which is a problem piece- I know) I really doubt the QC was better than Josh in that case.

And- I realize that Josh & Andrew both probably drop-ship, even if they deny it.

And if that's been your experience, then that's a wholly valid opinion. I'm sorry to hear that your transaction with Eurotimez hasn't gone down well, the only reason I commented on that, was because he has shown examples of the QC he provides, where the Cartel only drop-ship. As before, I have no problem with Eurotimez charging a higher price, because of the actual QC which his services provide.

Its a free country- if RMI bans the Cartel good for them. Caveat Emptor, if people don't feel good about

"jandrew" they can buy elsewhere. So far; I have no reason to be angry with Josh. He's always been fair with me,

selfishly, that's my main concern.

Not to be overly moral or condescending, but personally, I'm looking at this for what is best for this overall community, not what is best for me. As the thread on RWI clearly states, this is not about forcing anyone to buy or not to buy from the Cartel, but about taking a stand against unscrupulous dealers.

I am not a member of RMI nor do I know the facts enough to

come a conclusion about who did what.

Then with the greatest of respect, what precicely are you bringing to this discussion?

I think we need to remember that this 'hobby' is illegal!

Legality has nothing to do with it. The fact is, these forums to protect buyers from unscrupulous dealers. The Cartel are unscrupulous dealers, and there is plenty of evidence available which supports that. RWI had the stones to ban them, and, if you were to take the time to read the thread which is highlighted in the opening posts, I believe that you will find the facts speak for themselves.

In fact, often much better than the service i get with 'legitmate' businesses. I would much rather do business with

Josh than an insurance company! Think about other 'black market' businesses, there is no rule of law, concern

for other dealers, etc,etc. In the drug world your competition is often just murdered.Of course i'm exaggerating abit.

We are alot more civilized than crack dealers here- I hope.

Trying to strong arm other dealers into price matching is not civilized. Andrew and Joshua both have history of lying to, and attempting to manipulate, both potential and existing clients alike. Your deals might have been good. Frankly, I couldn't care less. This is not about your deals with Joshua. It is not about any of our deals with Joshua. It is about the Cartel stepping over the line. Again. And only one forum having the balls to stand up to them.

In fact Eurotimez likes to advertise

that they are more expensive than Andrew.

That would be because Eurotimez actually performs extensive quality control checks on his watches... Something the Cartel do not. They say they will do it, take the money for it, but ship an unchecked watch. Again, the evidence to support this is available. Eurotimes does check his watches, so is well within his rights as a merchant, to charge extra for a service which he actually provides.

Tj there is a saying as you know, "First chose your seller" and that is oftern done with reviews and referals, WE have to do our part!

Precicely. Equally though, the forums need to do their part (after all, they exist to protect buyers from unscrupulous dealers) and, allowing dealers to retain 'trusted' status, despite being banned from another forum for unacceptable business practices, I'm sorry to say, I personally, do not percieve as 'neutrality', but a simple unwillingness to act in the best interests of the people who's hard earned money enables the forums to remain online. It has been stated often enough that it is supporters, contributors and donators who keep the forums afloat, personally, I do not view banning two (frequently) disgraced dealers to be such a sacrifice on behalf of that supporting membership...

I really don't mean to be argumentative, but I find this apparent lack of willingness to take action as utterly incomprehensible.

It's like I said a few pages back about the recent UK child molester who had received Royal Honours for his work with children's charities. No one considered those things to validate his behaviour, or make it 'ignorable', and he was punished for what he did. RWI have taken the action to ban the Cartel, I do not understand any reason why other forums will not follow suit, particularly given the new era of inter-forum co-operation.

But TJ, I've seen before when this Cartel conspiracy theory surfaced a while ago, not too many people wanted to dissent in case they couldn't get their watches, things are a changing as this discussion has more dissenters than a year ago.

Oh absolutely, I quite agree with you, and that was definitely the situation, as people were scared of losing their supply. Personally, I was never bothered as I never had the supply in the first place. I couldn't lose what I never had, and equally, can never be denied something which I simply don't want.

The Cartel is no longer a conspiracy theory though, that they were banned from RWI is proof positive of that (and of which there was already plenty of supporting evidence)

Just the discussion, being allowed to continue is a good thing, as the administration says "its not all black & white" and not a cut and dry issue.

Indeed, it is a good thing, but, unless the admins (of all forums) are prepared to act, then it is just discussion, and not likely to actually achieve anything.

To say it's not all black and white though, I really do not understand, and honestly feel the membership deserve to have explained to them.

What is not cut and dry about banning dealers who have been proven time and again as liars, manipulators, and now racketeers, from a forum which is supposed to exist to protect buyers from unscrupulous dealers?

They are, by definition, unscrupulous, so why are they still allowed to remain as forum sanctioned dealers? That is against the very ethos this community is built upon. What possible reason could the admins have for not banning them?

don't agree with RobbieG that this will not have any impact, maybe not now but it will. If Wan King and Chu Sum Fatt are not concerned with the discussion, they should be.

Absolutely so, yet, as evidence has shown, they have viewed this topic several times today, yet chosen not to comment on the matter in any way. That shows their lack of interest in this forum, or the opinions of it's membership. More fool them...

Your frustration is that "majority rules" much like I get frustrated in the political voting process here; well in the end, bad reviews, bad service, bad business practices, bans on other forums may have the forum(s) seeing it your way. For now, its go with the flow of the group consensus.

My frustration is not 'majority rules', as that is the basis of democracy. My frustration, is that there have been numerous times when the Cartel have been caught, not only with their pants down, but balls deep in their victims, yet their conduct is ignored and tollerated, as they remain 'trusted dealers'. Again, I ask why this is, when it goes against the ethos of the community. I simply cannot understand the logic behind such decisions. That is my main frustration. The situation which is under discussion now, is, in my opinion, just even more of an insult, as there has been all this talk about inter-forum co-operation, and better relations between the forums, yet, when one forum has the stones to ban the Cartel, none of the others appear willing to show the backbone to do likewise, making a mockery of the concept of 'co-operation'. A friend who talks nice about me, but won't back me up when I make a decision, is not a true friend. RWI have drawn the line to protect the community. We ought to be backing them all the way with identical sanctions and buying practices, not simply allowing a discussion to continue, but not appear to be being taking any action.

I say 'appear', as that is how I am perceiving the response from the other forums. Behind the scenes, they may indeed be in intense discussion and plan to ban the Cartel. I don't know. All I am saying, is that nothing appears to be being done to support the stance RWI have been bold enough to take, and that is what I find truly disappointing.

It's an unfortunate situation, but a situation that we all have to deal with. Whether RWG bans them or not, that's up to our Admin and Mods...what we as members can do is buy elsewhere.

Absolutely. But. All the time they are still allowed to maintain a presense as 'trusted dealers', there will be those who continue to buy from them, thinking that the forum is 'vouching for them'.

RWI had the stones to ban them. They drew the line in the sand. It is for every forum, which claims to be enjoying this inter-forum co-operation, to stand together in solidarity with RWI by imposing the same sanctions. This spirit of co-operation deserves to be more than just 'lip service', it needs to be acted upon, even in difficult or unpleasant circumstances.

That is the true test of character. That is the true test of one's friends. The ones who stand with you, or those who walk on by.

As I said before, I'm just very disappointed by the whole charade

EXACTLY. The consumers buy the product, not the forum. The forum can allow debate and reviews, but the consumers send a message to the dealers/factories when they choose not to pay for lousy service, or substandard product.

Not wanting to get into specific dealers, there have been a few recommended dealers on RG and RWG who have been banned or have received consistently bad reviews. As a consumer, I decided not to buy any products from them (up to the point of getting banned) after reading some of those reviews. I'm sure others did the same thing.

But the forums do not (or rather, should not) allow dealers with issues such as these attributed to them, to maintain a position as 'forum recommended dealers'. Where are the references for EuroFakes, UltimateReplica and the like? They are certainly not in the 'recommended dealer' sections, that's for sure. Multiple issues have arisen about the Cartel, yet, their position remains unchanged.

Yes, of course reviews help buyers with their purchasses and choices, but allowing Cartel Dealers to remain in the 'trusted' catagory, is an insult to everyone who pays money to keep these forums afloat, with the intention that they (the forums) continue to protect consumers from unscrupulous dealers. If someone chooses to keep buying from Jandrew the racketeer, then that's up to them. Their business practices have been exposed on numerous occasions, yet any dissenting voices are always glossed over, ignored, or ridiculed, when instead, the Cartel should have been given it's marching orders, and re-positioned away from the 'trusted dealers' long ago...

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents here on the word "Trusted" copied and pasted my post from RWI from a week ago..

I couldn't agree more strongly with what you re-posted

Couple of thoughts. I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Thanks so much for the words of support, guys. It really means a lot to all of us on the RWI Mod Squad. We debated for days and days about what to do about Jandrew. And one concern we did have is whether removing them would end up being better or worse for the RWI members. And we were also very concerned about how the membership would view this. But in the end, we did what we felt was right and justified in the circumstances. Now, I don't know whether Jandrew really care much about our removing them. I suspect that they probably won't feel the pinch in the short term. They've got enough of a customer base built up that they'll be fine, at least for a while.

But they won't have any further referrals from RWI. So I think, in the long term, they'll start seeing a reduction in sales.

Someone in this thread used the example of Paul (Wo-Mart), and I think it's a good one. Jandrew used to be very good dealers-- among the best. But as they got bigger, they got more and more greedy, and less and less responsive to the needs of the forum membership. Same thing happened to Paul. And Paul was eventually kicked off all the boards until he cleaned up his act (although whether he did so is a whole different thread).

Removing Jandrew was easily the biggest and, perhaps, the riskiest decision that we've ever taken, at least since I've been a RWI mod. But it's a decision that, I hope, will be seen as a positive thing for rep collecting in the long run.

I'd just like to say thanks for doing it, I can only hope that other forums follow your example, and, as mentioned, in the spirit of inter-forum co-operation, if it was down to me (which I know it isn't) I'd impose matching sanctions on them. You drew the line in the sand, and, as much or as little as it will do to help, I'll be right behind you defending that line.

Well I hear what you are saying but that may be a whole other dicussion even. The definition of a scammer is generally someone like Ideal Watches that sells Noob Subs with "27 jewel Grade 1 Swiss" movements for a grand. What is wrong with that I wonder as long as they ship the watch they advertise? They are guilty of making too much profit? Good for them I say. I gave a so called "scammer" eight hundred for my first Sub and to this day I don't feel scammed. The best cyclops and datewheel I have ever seen and when compared to the genuine watch, worth every penny IMO. I can't just refute that because I find out I can get it later for two hundred. It is still the same watch and it is a good one. Who is to say if it is worth a grand or two hundred. "Worth" is a relative term. My friend buys Coke at a wholesale outlet and gets two litres for .59. I pay .99. Is that a scam? People say it isn't about price but it is.

I quite agree with you. I too, bought my first (and only) Sub from one of the so-called 'scam' sites. EuroFakes, to be precice. Like you, I received a really nice watch, and do not feel in any way 'scammed' by them. Would it have been nice to have got it for $200 from a dealer here? Sure, but, that wasn't the way things worked out, so I'm not going to cry about it. The lesson was learned, and, two years later, the watch does not even see wrist time. Not because it's not working, but because my tastes have evolved away from Rolex.

But, this isn't really the topic of discussion here, and has nothing to do with the Cartel strong-arming smaller dealers...

If I came on this board and met the requisite and said I had the same watches for similar prices - presto - I'm a "trusted" dealer in time. Moreover, all I should have to do to keep that status is service as I say I will and make sure cutomers get their watches. That's it. Even if I raise my prices they will be published so if I am out of line my customers will let me know they don't want to pay my price becuase XYZ has it for cheaper. Maybe I'm washed up but TRUST as a term related to our dealers has always been to provide the best products for a fair price and provide service when they go bad and to offer customs protection. That's it. I think asking more of any dealer is unrealistic. I mean how much do they need to do to earn the business. It is about delivering a product in exchange for money. Nothing more.

Indeed, but, should you fail to maintain the behaviour which earned you the position of 'trusted dealer', would you expect to keep it? Would you expect people to keep defending you for past transactions, or accept that they will judge you based on your current transactions? Would you be bothered if they said you were going to lose the ability to advertise on the forums? If so, would you let such discussion run without commenting on it, or would you make a post to clarify the situation?

Now the lies about movements is something also because now you are talking about not selling what you advertised, and yes, that is cause for trouble, but the actions of a dealer against another in a foreign country we know nothing about and in a Mafioso based caste system? Seems to me that has nothing to do with the dealer/cutomer relationships which are individual ones. That is, if you hear the story about Andrew and you don't like it - easy - boycott him and buy from Angus or whoever - problem solved. All this is just placing the dealer "bar" too high IMO. This is about a watch in exchange for cash and you said yourself that is all they are doing here...

Indeed, this is something else, and indeed, I do boycott the Cartel, for precicely those reasons, but the point is not that I boycot or renounce these dealers, but, that, when one forum bans them over a matter, as a common courtesy to the spirit of inter-forum co-operation, I would expect, or at least, like to see, other forums matching those sanctions.

@RobbieG & Teejay: I beg you on behalf of the planet - PLEASE can you start using the key that makes blocks of rambling text into neat paragraphs.

It's located here:

I like blocks of rambling text

Use of paragraphs will be considered and applied

The forums dont need to do a thing except alow the discussions to go on. I know you are agreeing with me and the way of thinking TJ, but THE CONSUMER has to act not the forums.

I know what you mean, but, what is the point of the community and consumers acting to ignore them as dealers, or warning people away from them, when the forums themselves, which people also put a degree of faith in, refuse to match the sanctions imposed by another forum?

As above, I just find the whole thing very disappointing

It's not tough to understand. I for one just don't care because if Josh were the only game in town it would be fine by me. Mostly because I don't buy reps much any more and if I ever do I know I'll get the same price and the same product and great service from him. It is a choice of each individual. I choose to not care about it also because I actually think the current prices are very low and unrealistic to maintain. And when compared to their genuine counterparts the best of these watches would be a good buy to me still at twice the price they sell for now - if I bought one at all. But then that is a whole other discussion, becase if a modded PO is $500 all in or something I'm getting gen every time for only 4x the price of a rep. No brainer for me. It is only a bargain if they are 1/8 the price or less for me at this point which is why I don't buy them much any more. I mean I paid $2200 for my gen Steelfish so the rep has already crossed over for me. So maybe if the gen is ten grand the the HBB and you really want one maybe seven hundred makes sense? Not to me, because when I start getting into ten plus grand watches only the gen will do for a host of other reasons. Reps to me were always centered around the Submariner as it made perfect sense. At one time a 4K watch was just out of reach and so I looked to reps. What I found was a slew of under $200 options which with that again in modding were every bit as good as the real thing. That has more to do with Rolex though. A Sub really isn't all that great of a watch to begin with IMO. Cheap flimsy bracelet, etc. so the rep makes sense. But now we have all these watches being repped which are absolutely LUXURIOUS in every way to begin with and the bar is so high. The reps have to be blinding to get our attention and the economies of scale are shrinking. I just don't know how it can go on and pay for itself other than to charge more to a whole new market of suckers or something. It's like the watches are worth every bit of $500 with blank dials, but then they aren't because they are reps. I really think the future of the industry is still just its past. $200 Submariners that are near perfect out of the box. No further manufacturing costs and a never ending stream of buyers...

Indeed, but, with respect, this is not about your, or my, choices for purchasses or rationale for buying them. It is about behaviour from the Cartel, which falls squarely in the label of 'unacceptable', and has resulted in their being banned from RWI. Personally, given the incidents in the past, the Little White Lies, the claims of water-proofing and servicing of untouched watches, the drop-shipping of watches, and using that as an exuse for the delivered watch differing from the advertized watch to fob off a customer, I feel that this incident should be enough to make the admins of the other forums say "Enough is enough," and for them to stand behind RWI, by imposing identical sanctions on the Cartel, but I have the disappointing feeling that no such sanctions will be taken, and this, like every other betrayal of trust by the Cartel, will go unchecked and unpunished. And why? Both Andrew and Joshua have viewed this thread today, neither have taken the time to comment, explain, defend or deny these issues. They clearly do not care, so why should we, as a community, continue to tollerate such disinterested dealers? Beyond raffle contributions, what do they actually contribute to this community? When was the last time they posted for anything other than to deny a customer issue, or to announce a new product for sale? When was the last time they took part in an off-topic conversation about music, or cars, or women, or any of these things which make this community great? Why do the admins continue to tollerate the presense of two such apathetic people? They [the Cartel] clearly don't care enough to discuss the issue openly, so why should they remain as 'trusted dealers'?

I just find the whole thing very disappointing (even if not unexpected)

Well said. I am guilty of of not really using these forums for the use that they may be intended which is probably why my view is a little liberal. For me I never looked for protection but rather just a line to a way to essentially buy the watches at wholesale prices. I say wholesale because 99% of the internet buyers of reps don't pay what we pay. And I know that even if the price of an average super rep rises to say $700, that the dealers here will always be the cheapest place to buy them. So selfishly once I found a dealer who I could try (with a capital "I"), I became just a consumer with a favorite store to buy stuff. I'm not saying it is right, but I'm the type of guy who isn't going to stop buying t-shirts from Walmart if my political view differes from the owners or whatever. I just don't mix my role as a consumer with other things. To that end, as long as say, Joshua, in my case, literally slathers me personally with customer service, I could care less how many others he burns down in the process if that is the case. It makes no difference to me the way a man makes a living so long as his interests don't conflict with mine. And in this case, they don't. Specifically because in the case of Joshua, I believe for every bad thing one could say about him, one could say something good. Such is the case with most dealers and most of us. What he and Andrew have and continue to contribute to the qulaity of the products we buy is not small potatoes and I for one appreciate what he is doing. But please, whatever you do, don't interperet what I say as blindly defending him or any of his actions. If his actions don't affect me, I just don't care. I know that may sound brutal to some but I'm just being honest. But if he were to burn me even once with the slightest singe, I would set him on fire in a minute. I hold anyone I deal with in the highest standard and frankly he has led the pack in my now 4 year tenure with replica watches. And I mean head and shoulders above. In fact, every other dealer besides him I have bought from has burned me in a MAJOR way on the first pass except him. Dumb luck? Probably. But it is my luck and all I have to go on.

But again, I don't want my posts to be interpereted as a defense of Josh and Andrew. I'm just trying to present another way of looking a a complex series of issues and circumstances happening a world away which none of us will ever fully understand and it is surely a brutal system of control and survival of the fittest reigns supreme. I'm also certain that Josh and Andrew didn't invent that system but they are just trying to get to the top and survive in it just as all th eother dealers are. The factories make the rules and the majority of the money will always flow to them and they will have the dealers doing whatever it akes to guarantee that.

That's fine, I totally understand what you mean, and I value your candour and honesty. Without intending to come across as 'moral', or judgemental, I can only say that I am voicing my opinion, in the hopes that it will benefit the whole community, not just me individually, as in all honesty, it does not (at this point) directly affect me or my buying choices. However, if, in the future, the Cartel do get to a level with the factories where they can influence sales to smaller dealers, that could affect my choices, something I would consider unacceptable, and as such, I'd rather see things taken care of now, at this point, rather than things progressing further.

Well that is one

I suppose it is not my place to state this but the forums are not a regularity body of the replica world they are a place we meet and talk about reps, the only body that can regulate this are the consumers.

If J and A retired tomorrow i dont belive we would lose the "super" reps and i for one want them, the factorys will still make them, do you think that if the main harley dealers truned out to be corrupt that the factory would just stop, no because people will still buy them, we will still have all the watches we want no matter what happens to any couple of the sellers, because money is to be made and somone want to make that money.

I dont belive that talking lots about this will make a diference but doing the right thing will.

Absolutely. There has been so much better relations between the forums recently, and talk of inter-forum co-operation, it would be nice to actually see it in practice on an issue like this, which affects all members of our community, regardless what forum or level of subscription they may be, rather than just being given token 'lip service', to keep relations between the forums cordial.

For the record, I'm not saying that I like it either - if that is indeed what is happening. I mean, no one likes to see the little guy get squashed, but it is reality.

I'm only saying that we live with this invisibly in nearly everything we purchase in the legit world and so I find it funny that it get's "High Horsed" here when it has to do with replica watches of all things. The same stuff happens every day with supermarket brands for instance but I bet the same folks don't complain about that or are otherwise in denial about it. Do you think Walmart doesn't price fix with it's China made crap they sell? OK, think that. Be my guest if it makes you feel better. My point is that the notion of free trade violations and price controls is something that is nearly impossible to enforce in the legitimate world so how can one expect an illegal industry controlled by the Mafia to be free of it? How about union labor in Las Vegas? Trash collection in NYC? But a few hundred replica watches on an underground forum. Absolutely. Let's get to the bottom of it from six thousand miles away and effect a change which will discourage the practice and cost the offender real dollars. Uh...OK...Have at it then, but it won't even make a dent...

Indeed, but, I believe the point Peepshow was making, is that these are dealers who are presented on these forums, and by these forums, as trustworthy. Even if forum disclaimers might deny any such endorsement or promotion, the implication a forum creates by allowing dealers to advertize their wares and services, is that they are trustworthy. When such incidents occur, which show certain dealers in a negative light, when forums do not take steps to remove them (as happens very rarely) it can create an uneasy feeling amongst the membership, who's auctions, donations and subscriptions, are what provide these dealers with their place to advertise. As I said before, I do feel sorry for Joshua for getting punished equally for Andrew's behaviour, but, that is the risk and consequence of having such a closely linked business. All I would like to see, in the spirit of inter-forum relations, is the other forums making the same sanctions which RWI have already made. It's all well and good to talk about co-operation, but it is times like these, when actions speak louder than words, and where co-operation has to mean more than simply talking about good relations. RWI drew the line in the sand, it is for the rest of us, as a community, be it as admins, or members to stand behind them, united, with the sanctions imposed by one forum, upheld by all forums, for reasons which would impact the whole market which is our hobby.

Right, not exactly a correct title, i can understand the meaning but its just not correct English and have no idea where it came from!

The words:

'My Bad'

For gods sake its awful English! I cant stand it when i hear it.

Where did it come from and why!

Non native English speakers PLEASE DONT USE IT AS ITS NOT CORRECT ENGLISH and GRAMMATICALLY MAKES NO SENSE!

Where did it come from:

The first (and most frequent) use of it, that I am aware of, is from inner-city African-Americans.

Why?:

It is a way of apologizing without having to actually say "I'm sorry..." so probably an easier admission for a someone full of machismo and 'ghetto pride' to make.

I may well be wrong, but those are my thoughts on the expression...

I shall now don my Forum5000 Flame-Proof suit, for the outcries that I am 'being racist'

Well I have to disagree there. I have no interest in passing a watch off as a gen. Actually I don't really own a lot of reps right now, but the quality of the 1:1's can't be beat. If you want the best watch for the money those are it. The manufacturing process itself insures the highest possibel quality and those pieces really are a sight to behold for the money. I own the genuine Aquatimer and the genuine SFSO and also had the reps of both and I must say the quality is blinding and absolutely every bit as good as the gen down to the last degree - and it still has visual flaws. By contrast, even the best Rolex and PAM reps not made with the detail of the 1:1 process just don't have that extra "something" that my gens from those two camps IMO. It is the super high tolerance CNC work on each and every piece that makes the difference.

This is where I, respectfully, have to disagree with you. Although I don't own a genuine SFSO (I simply don't like how it looks on my wrist) I have made an extremely close inspection of one, and did not find the quality of the finish to be any better than some of my favorite watches, such as the One Eight Something, and my 104. Cosmetically, they may not be 1:1 replications, but, in terms of manufactured products, they are just as well made. Equally, I've seen an Omega 2220.80 in an AD which had two manufacturing flaws on the bezel insert...

Even if banned people will not forget the tt and PC websites, but if people do what is moraly right then J and A will

A. Lose the power the have, because that is money, or

B. They will see the error of there ways and change the way they have been doing or

C. Reinvent them selfs under different names like paul has done on many occasions maybe to make a break from a bad rep.

But this all starts with the consumer US, WE have to make the desision of where WE shop and even if banned NOT to go direct to those websites. What the admins of the forums do will not make a differnce until WE act.

And Act WE must.

You're absolutely right there, amigo, it is up to us as a community to act. I also feel it is up to the admins of the forums to make good on this inter-forum co-operation, by imposing mutual sanctions on the Cartel. That would be an even bigger blow to their [the Cartel's] crediblity than people saying "I won't buy from them anymore..." All the time the forum admins continue to allow them to operate as 'trusted dealers', in their [the Cartel's eyes], they have won/done no wrong/are untouchable. RWI has drawn the line in the sand, it's time for us all to get behind them as Allies.

Then you are in great shape my friend.

All I'm trying to illustrate, is that for the most part, most people are satisfied with the majority of available watches. It is only the most die-hard fans (or those who truly feel the need to misrepresent their watches as gen) who crave the Super Reps, and, even then, those are equally available from other sources. TTK claimed he was the only dealer to have the 'NoobMariner', yet, another new dealer has been able to tap into that source as well. I've seen Tony advertising MBK PP Nautilus, with both Asian and Swiss movements. Now, I don't know enough about the MBK PPs to verify that they indeed are MBK PPs, but, I do know that Tony is not a watch enthusiast, does not know the details himself, and relies solely on what his supplier tells him. Now, the Cartel on the other hand, play a (apparently) huge part in the construction of such super reps, yet, the B&R Fiasco showed that they were knowingingly and intentionally mislabelling their products. It's not a month ago that someone pointed out that a watch they bought from Joshua had a different crown to the stock picture, and, the only defense he had for that, was that as a drop-shipper, he did not realize that the new stock had different details to the advertized photo. Personally, I find that line hard to believe, especially from someone who 'plays a major role' with the factories. It may be an uncharitable view on my part, but to me, it just came across as another example of Joshua trying to manipulate a client. (Again) But, given the past actions of the Cartel, I feel my schepticism is not without reason.

Sorry. I don't mean to puff. Not all but a lot recently for sure. The ones that ones to mind are The GMTIIc, The SFSO, The B&R, The Breitling Heritage, The Slevin, The Graham Chronofighter, and the Chopard Miglia off the top of my head. Imagine if all these were exclusive and as such cost the same as the Big Bangs for instance. There would be some pretty pi**ed off people on these boards for sure and I think that exclusivity is right around the corner. All the pieces of that puzzle are in place...

I neither own, nor would want to own, any of those watches you mentioned... Same goes for the Big Bang. I simply do not like them. Everything I have ever wanted watch-wise, I have been able to source from other dealers. (and, in the past, I have used several, including the infamous Applewave)