TeeJay

Sure, and that is the choice everyone has to make. You are right. They don't care about these forums other than to stay connected to the retail side of the biz. Selling one-offs and servicing them is a pain in the a*s I'm sure. I wouldn't want to do it either. It will just be interesting to see what anti J&A members will do when a good number of the best reps around are exclusive to them and not available from any other dealer. If they contribute enough money and pre-sales, the factory will continue to grant exclusives as they can get more money that way. If no other dealer can get a watch and they want to charge $700 retail people will pay. If not here then somewhere else. And the factory will just eat that up when they can start getting double for each watch at the wholesale level. It is a no brainer really. Exclusivity=more money at every level and that is where we are headed...

They will probably decide to either seek alternative sources, or simply go without. Who actually needs a 1:1 super rep anyway? Only dishonest people who want to pass the watch off as genuine to others. Anyone else, who simply has a genuine appreciation for nice watches, and who is not afraid to tell someone they are wearing a rep, will be satisfied by what else is on offer.

Also, regardless of the money and pre-sales they may put in, if enough people were to actually stop buying from the Cartel, if the various forums were prepared to actually stand behind RWI and actually ban them from all the forums, then the factories would drop them, because they would want outlets for their product which people are prepared to buy from. That would be the smaller dealers...

I'd rather have no reps than buy from manipulative price fixing dealers. That's why I stopped buying from the so called cartel at the time of the original revalations and partly the reason I went away from reps for a while.

Game over IMO and I wonder whether this site should distance itself from them now and why it didn't before.

I don't 'wonder', I outright think it should, even if it is just as a show of solidarity and inter-forum co-operation.

- "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish, and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper, and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

J&A's buisness is completely intertwined. To use the Rolex analogy they are more like Rolex employees than retailers. They are partnered with factories and carry out their wishes. They have the real power as their influence at the government level is what allows the biz to operate. Ever wonder why it is that GZ is the center of the rep world with sales openly in the streets and yet no one ever gets busted? Rolex knows it all comes out of GZ but they never seem to be able to do anything about it? Juice my friend. Big money. Big power. As for the horsehair, I haven't been discussing the nature of the products themselves, only the supply chain and who the players are. If you think one-off sales from these forums is the majority of their business you are mistaken. It is importnat but not the biggest part. The best thing thse boards do for them is help them guage interest in watches so that they can choose watches for projects which will likely be big sellers. The role J&A play for the factorTheir biz is high end watches, but the majority are shipped to other retailers in lots of 10-30 pieces and involves major governmental assistance and the factories "juice" to get them out of the country. Everything in China is about power and grease...

You're absolutely right there, I wouldn't dispute or argue that at all.

The only reason I mentioned the nature of their products, is because it is a previous (and consistent) example of their unacceptable behaviour, which, for reasons known only to others, went un-checked, and was infact tollerated. I was simply pointing out, as a way of illustrating previous conduct, that these two dealers do not have unblemished records, do have a history of lying to and manipulating their clients, and, are not above taking the actions which led to the RWI ban.

I'm just sick of seeing members of the community defending and justifying their actions, when their own actions today, prove that they a ) do not deserve such loyalty, and b ) do not even care enough to defend themselves...

Sorry but I have to disagree. All the best reps you probably own right now are projects of the cartel. The 1:1 watches are purchased by Josh and Andrew and they partner with the factory by funding the project with the base watches and help in paying for an enormous amount of CNC equipment. You may not need "THE" cartel, but if you want those watches you will need "A" cartel. Someone has to front these projects and keep its ear to the pavement to see what watches to buy and replicate based on estimated demand. The factories need J&A for that. Plus, in the future because of all this J&A and their factories will be doing more exclusive projects that just won't be available to other dealers unless they partner with another factory in the same way. You have only seen the tip of the iceberg as to what is going to happen with exclusivity and price fixing...

I have never spent a penny with a Cartel dealer. If my source happens to use the same factory (and I don't know or care if they do), then so be it. They are simply someone who buys from the same factory. So the Cartel might have (apparently) provided a watch for use in replication... There are also claims that they have not actually provided a watch for replication.

Also, this is a deflection of the issue, as my watches and supplier are not the issue here. The issue, is the unnacceptable business practices of the Cartel.

There was a case in the UK last week where someone who had received a Royal Honour for their work with children and founding a children's charity, was charged as a child abuser.

Did anyone think "Oh, he did all that good work, so what if he copped a feel every now and again..."

No. They said that such behaviour was unnacceptable, and actions were taken, and that is how the situation here should be dealt with.

Whatever 'good will' Jandrew might have earned in the past, is not to be used as a 'get out of jail free card' when they get caught with their pants down (again) behaving in an unacceptable way (again). As I said before, there is all this talk of inter-forum co-operation. It is time for all forums, and all the members of this community to stand behind RWI and say "no more" to the Cartel's shennanigans. If that means less easy access to Super Reps, so be it. That is the price to pay. As I said before, there are other dealers available other than the Cartel...

Both Andrew and Joshua have observed this thread, and both have skulked off without offering so much as a word of explanation or defence for their actions. Open your eyes. They do not care about their reputations with these forums. Their actions prove this repeatedly. It is time to stop turning the other cheek, and time to fight against those who are fighting against us...

Godwin.

Godfrey, Godwin, same difference

It is my understanding that the wholesale part of the biz is the largest. The suppliers closest to the makers like Josh and Andrew sell wholesale quantity to other retailers with bulk orders. Many of these are likely the so-called "scam dealers" everyone always talks about. Not to go off on another tangent, but let's face it, one of the definitions of a "scam" dealer is one that sells Noob Subs for a grand or something. Many of them are not really scams, but rather just sites that pay to have a strong search engine power and simply charge a lot for watches. That is the big biz for higher end reps and the sales are huge compared to ours. Remember, there are many satisfied customers who never find these boards who bought Noob Subs for a grand around the globe. To them it is an awesome copy for 1/5th the price. I think I agree. It only becomes a scam if you find out that it is possible to buy it for $200. One could say that about almost any legitimate product as well. Like say a goose down comforter or something. If you buy it on Rodeo for a thousand or on Overstock for $200, it is still the same comforter. Middle men making profits or retailers with high overhead is not a scam...

No, it is not. But, selling a comfoter described as containing goose down, when it infact contains horsehair, would be a bait and switch tactic, so not acceptable either. Or, selling a goose down comforter, taking the money from the customer, and never despatching the comforter.

No one is saying that Jandrew have 'scammed' customers, but that they have previously intentionally lied about the nature of their products, and, in this particular instance, are trying to strong-arm smaller rep dealers into increasing their own prices, just so they will not lose out on sales to a cheaper dealer. Those are not business tactics which should be tollerated from people who are placed in the position of trust, which they are, as being 'recommended' by the forums as trustworthy.

For the record, I feel sorry for Joshua that he has also been banned on account of Andrew's behaviour, but, I do agree with the reasoning behind it: They do have close business ties, and, as the saying goes, if someone lies down with a dog, they should not be surprized when they get fleas...

One of the brands that brought most of us here is the pioneer of that. I'm not going to boycott them over it, although maybe many have. He who controls the game makes the rules. If you are a Rolex dealer and you sell for less than they want you too they will pull your ticket so fast it will make your head spin. Going out of business? Cash flow tight? Making room for 09' stock? Too bad. Sell for under 10% off retail (or discount at all for some flagship stores) and we will come and clean you out tomorrow. I happens too. I have heard those stories from other AD's and I know many more have too. I think we have to try and stop putting this little rep biz in a vacuum. It is just like Switzerland in many respects. Reps are sort of a luxury item in themselves which will be subject to the same sort of price pressures but just with less zeros. Think of the makers as Rolex and Josh and Andrew as their henchmen and junior partners in for a piece. It really isn't as sinister as many would have us believe. Plus, I spent many years in Hawaii myself and you should all take to heart what Lani said about Asian business culture. I found that all to be true - at least in my limited experience...

It's not quite the same though, as with the ADs, it would be Rolex themselves who take the action. To keep with your analogy, this would be like one AD, saying to another AD, put your prices to the same as ours, or we'll make sure you lose your supply of Rolexes...

It's nothing more than petty bully-boy strong-arm tactics, and not the kind of behaviour which should be tolerated from people who are held in positions of esteem and trust. As mentioned before, there was the evidence of the Little White Lies, and nothing was done. This is something else quite different, but equally disturbing, particularly as it involves the same dealers. How much more leeway do these guys actually deserve? Not to intentionally Godfrey myself, but c'mon, when Hitler rolled into Poland, did nations sit back and let him, or, did they say 'Not on our watch...' and actually do something about it?

Are the UN letting Mugabe get away with his political machinations, or, are they imposing sanctions against him?

RWI have done something about it. They've drawn the line in the sand, it's time for us as a community, and these forums, as our 'nations', to stand behind them and back their sanctions. Enough is enough. There are plenty of dealers out there who will not lie to buyers or intentionally misrepresent their product. People do not need the Cartel...

haha I see you're creating the movement TeeJay.

I'm just calling it as I see it, and how I feel the community should proceed. Afterall, there is all this talk of inter-forum co-operation, I just think it would be nice, in times like this, for it to be acted upon unilaterally Of course, that's just my own feeling on the matter...

I think the main problem with going forward and banning them (looking from the otherside of the fence now) is that J and A have been around for a long time with a good history of sales and service. The latest event perhaps lacks that crucial piece of evidence (ie it isn't entirely conclusive) to show to the J and A loyals that they are nothing more than hot air. They offer a great service yes, but I feel that all of these continuing incidents are detrimental to us as a community.

I know what you mean, but, that said, there was evidence of the lies about the B&R movements, and their supporters still tried to justify things for them. I'm not saying people shouldn't buy from them anymore, as that's a person's own choice. What I do feel, is that as one forum has taken steps over a serious reason, it would be good manners and solidarity for the other forums to impose likewise sanctions

It is, and until some action is taken it will just keep going, it's cyclical. I can guarantee that near the end of October/November time we will be here discussing the same out thing. Same sh!t, different day

Absolutely. What with all this talk of inter-forum relations, I think it's time for the forums to actually act upon them, and act as the one community, which we all are. RWI have drawn the line in the sand. They've stood up and said "No, not on our watch..." (no pun intended) It's time for the other forums to now back their decision, with identical sanctions.

I feel like it's the eve of war

What we need, is:

Our Community... __________________________ The Cartel...

guys, i am more active on rep geek then any other forum, because i like their calm blue background... lol.. just kidding.. what has not been mentioned here is that the dollar got week compared to euro and all other asian and european currency, so dealers have to adjust their prices as well.. so who are you prefered dealers guys list them in order of how you rank them..

An interesting point, but totally irrelevent to what has happened. Allow me to illustrate:

There's quite a difference between adjusting one's own prices to balance a weak dollar, and threatening other dealers to raise their prices, or they will lose their supply from the factories.

Jandrew did the latter: Threatening other dealers to raise prices or lose their factory supply.

Now, that may well be how such businesses operate, but, these forums are here to protect the buyers. If dealers are shown to have unreasonable behaviour in one area of their business, it is not a stretch of the imagination that they will have unreasonable behaviour in other areas of their business. This has been proven over and over again with the Little White Lies threads. At the end of the day, Josh and Andrew are liars and manipulators, and can only be trusted to behave thus.

If people want to continue to buy from them, then that is their personal choice and right to do so. But. Personally, I feel the way they have behaved (little white lies) has been tollerated long enough, and personally, would consider this latest revelation to be 'the straw that broke the camel's back', and ban them from the forums, as quite simply, they are not trustworthy, and, it will not be long before their behaviour then turns on their clients.

As has been noted above, Andrew couldn't be bothered to even attempt to defend himself. I think that says everything there is to say about how much he actually cares about his reputation among forum buyers.

Ditto By-Tor.

Someone looking for a rep is looking for a Rolex. I've been reading these forums for a year and I myself have only recently discovered IWC.

My own take on this is : Josh and Andrew saying that they buy the originals and make a deal with the " maker " to reproduce it is pure BS. I have long been gone from the machine-tool industry and it has been long gone from the US, but there are a lot more stages in making a watch than blythely setting up a CNC machine. Some articles involving bas-relief must be cast. Some are drop-forged, such as watch heads. Plastic parts are injection molded. All of these parts are engineered first then drawn in blueprint. A computer will NOT make a perfect copy of a part. It will produce a low end rep.

It is my very strong FEELING, I can not prove this, that our high end reps are STOLEN ORIGINALS in one way or another due to outsourcing to China where because of lack of proper supervision they go astray, that is, out the back door.

It would be lunacy to set up a factory to reproduce, say an Ingenieur for a paltrey $300.

Think about it. How many people are combing the net for a phony Ingenieur ?

Why are the simple Rolex so frustratingly inaccurate ? Because they are still made in Switzerland.

I think that's a very interesting, and very likely possibility (especially with the high end reps) that, even if the watches are not being stolen as a complete piece, the parts themselves could certainly be making their way out of the factory's back door, to then be assembled in the 'back room factories' which we know operate.

Back on topic....It makes me wonder how many of these types of threads are going to appear before the loyal see that maybe these two dealers don't have our best interests at heart. Granted the proof isn't conclusive, but every one of these little white lie threads/shady actions threads always seem to appear in relation to these two dealers.

Absolutely spot on. Funny how these threads are always about them, isn't it

In a few weeks, all this will have blown over and we'll get right back to the cartel circle-jerk, praising the dealers for being gods, again.

It's sad, because it's true...

That's excellent, Mate! jUST CURIOUS KOZ those cholesterol lowering drugs are famous for muscular side effects! I take them (hereditary), that's why I

know and I used to work for a huge pharmaceutical company. I think you should be fine! Remember when you start taking the glocousamine/chondroitine complex

(I'll add msm if I were you) it takes about three weeks to start kicking in. Also start @3 times a day (to total 2250mg/day) for 3 months and then taper off to twice

a day for a maintenance dose! That's what works for me, anyway!

Good luck......and have fun on your wedding day if I forgot!

Hike

Ahh, thanks for the advice I think the thing which concerned me, was the abruptness with which the actual need to crack my back came on. When I did it years ago, I'd felt fine before, it was purely accidental, and, despite feeling fine before, I felt better for it... The recent adjustments, however, I'd been feeling that wierd 'pressure' in my lower back, had a hunch, so twisted in my seat, a few cracks later, the pressure was gone, just like when I crack my knuckles I think my most unusual 'crack', is, sometimes, if I sleep on my right hand side (and arm), when I wake up, across the top of my breastbone feels 'tight', and, stretching my shoulders back, sure enough, will make that crack The thing that gets me with that, is there are no joints to pop in that area

Those 'little white lies' do keep coming up... I only hope that people will ignore personal conflicts and opinions, and look to (I believe the Japanese word 'kokoro'* sums it up best) and start realizing the truth about the Cartel.

*the heart of things'

This mostly stems from one over-zealous member, not any of the admins.

Ahh, fair enough. I admit, I don't post there often, although I can't put my finger on a specific reason, it just doesn't appeal to me as much as this forum does.

Hi TJ,

Forgot to ask you, are you taking any statins or anti-cholesterol meds?

Hike

Hola, amigo I'm not on any medications at all, and, last time I had it checked, my cholesterol was only 3.5

Thanks for the advice and suggestions, guys.

Knowing the mechanics behind 'cracking joints', the thing I don't understand, is, is this down to an increased production of synovial fluids?

I think I'll start simple with some glycosamine supplements. When I damaged my shoulder a few months back, a gel with glycosamine in it made a significant improvement, and accellerated the healing time considerably.

Thanks again

They look unfinished and crap. The accents on the old bracelets echoed the design elements of the watch case. All this is, is plain stainless steel. It looks like a 'blank', rather than a finished product... I can't see myself buying one...

Has anyone asked anyone at RepGeek if this is true? I mean it's one thing to have a strong feeling and it's another to outright accuse.

It'd be interesting to know. I'm sure I remember reading that anyone who dared to criticise Jandrew there would get a serious flaming, or rather, the e-equivelent of an ordered 'punishment beating'.

I'd like to be able to say I'm shocked, surprized and appalled by this, but I can't. Well, I'm appalled that such harrassment would be undertaken, but as for shocked and surprized... I hate to say it, but, I told you so...

Just a word of warning here, whereas cracking may be seen by some as benefical popping is a whole different ball game.

That story about twisting to pick up the pen sent a shiver down my spine as I know it had the potential to put me in a wheelchair, if you feel your spine needs adjustment go and see a good physiotherapist never attempt to do it yourself.

Ken

Thanks for the advice, amigo, I might well do that, especially if it continues. The first time I did it, it was purely accidental, and indeed, in the intervening years, never felt the need to do it again. It's only within the past month that I've noticed that 'pressurized' sensation, and guessed from the same sensation in other joints, that a manipulation was required...

As above, if this is just 'old age' settling in, that's fine, I just wondered if there might be anything I could eat or take to help alleviate it

facet spondylosis.

ie arthritic vetebral facet joints

welcome to old age.

wear and tear; genetics, accidents, hard work, hard play, it all adds up in the end.

watch your weight, stay in good physical shape, NSAIDS - non steroidal anti-inflamatory drugs,

and say a prayer to the arthritis gods every morning to spare you further pain and suffering.

we all get it, some worse than others.

As long as it's just 'old age', that I can deal with My mother suffers from chronic osteo-arthritis (now in every bone in her body) and AS, and I wondered if this might be the begining of such a route for myself... I've just read though, that the chances of a child developing AS from a parent with it, is quite low I'm not experiencing any pain or discomfort or loss of mobility, simply experiencing the same 'stiffening/pressurized' sensation I get in a finger joint before cracking a knuckle.

PS When it comes to 'adjustments', I am not a 'violent wrencher', but go for a 'gradual pressure', as I'd really rather not risk crippling myself in the process

PPS I get this feeling in the evening before bed, after a day of activity, not in the morning, after a night of inactivity...

Silly question, I know there are several doctor's here, but isn't that what hosts/cabin crew always ask?

This isn't an emergency, or even a huge concern, and not something I'd want to visit a doctor for, because I'd feel it was taking appointment time away from someone who was actually ill...

Okay, down to the symptoms...

For many many years, I have cracked my knuckles. Equally, for many years, several joints (wrist, knees, a once near-shattered ankle and neck) have also cracked when pressure is applied. About five years ago, I dropped a pen and twisted round to pick it up. I'd intended for the whole chair to move, but, for some reason, I only moved from the waist up, and, the force with which I turned, meant must of my lumbar vertebrae 'cracked', as if I was at an osteopath At first, I thought "F*CK!!! I've crippled myself!!!" Then I realized I hadn't soiled myself, could still feel my toes, and my back actually felt better for the 'readjustment'...

For the last few weeks, my lower spine has begun to feel, well, not stiff, precicely, as I've not suffered any loss of movement or mobility, but, more like a joint feels before it is cracked, and, sure enough, a few carefull twists will crack the lumbar vertebrae.

Now... Is this the begining of something ominous like Ankylosing Spondylitis, or just the beginning of 'old age' starting to show, and nothing to worry about? I know from speaking to a chiropractor years ago, that 'controlled cracking' is not particularly damaging, and, if a patient needed it, they would not hesitate to make such an adjustment, so that's not really my concern, what is concerning me, however, is the frequency with which I am feeling the need to do so... Might something like more fish oils or glycosamine supplements be of benefit to allieviate this 'stiffening'?

Thanks in advance

I like the look of this forum -- it's professional looking.

As for having "replica watch" at the top of the site, I don't care. If i am going to be wearing a fake watch on my wrist all day, why should I care if people see me browsing a fake watch website? I think some people are taking this hobby too seriously.

I have to agree there. If people don't feel comfortable with someone seeing the name of the forum at work, maybe they should consider not viewing it at those times... WHile I agree with the point being made that someone's business is someone's business, and it's bad form to be looking over someone's shoulder, and, call me 'old fashioned' if you must, but I can't help but feel that at the end of the day, that people go to work to work. Not use online access for their own perusal If I recall, Sir Richard Branson considered (and might even have implemented) 'e-breaks' so employees could check emails, blogs etc, rather than doing so while on his clock

PS In terms of a 'forum logo', I believe the membership chose one some time back in the RWG ring thread Not much point of there being a logo if it's never used

This is what I had on today. My 113 on modified Ferrari strap

At the end of the day, I'd say that the difference is not between 'rep and gen', but someone who is a real lover, compared to someone who simply 'buys a nice watch'

Although I have spent a fair amount of money since finding the forum, I don't regret it, as I've never gone 'spend crazy', and only bought pieces I really wanted for my collection, or needed for a certain occasion.

As with anything, it's just a matter of self-restraint.

Live long and prosper