TeeJay

Very typical Libra here

JLC is pioners in watchmaking, so this price tag is not that "wild".

Panerai is a metal box whit a mass produced movment that goes for like 4000$, real cost is like 900$ maximum.

Cheers

That's quite true, and I agree, the JLC is definitely revolutionary, so yes, some level of price is a requirement. However. The reason why I feel that watch to be overpriced, is as I said above: It is not a 'smart' watch. It is not in any way versatile, and it's dial markings are hardly the best. For example. No 5,6,7 markers, and for what? A faux torbillon which doesn't even move... They could've at least made the sacrifice of the numbers worthwhile and included a rotating torbillon for that price

Not something I'd wear, but in terms of artwork, an awesome piece of work Well worth the price tag

Snip loads of stuff I agree with.

That's why I think, of all nations, France is the one in the best position in terms of replicas.

Whereas other countries like the USA are known for their marketing icons, which can be duplicated, they banked very heavily on their inestimable terroir.

Try as the Chinese might, they will NEVER EVER be able to replicate Krug champagne, 246 kinds of French cheeses, and Johnny Halliday.

Thank God.

@Demon: I just read about the fellatio. You see, some people do read things to the end.

Who needs Krug champagne, when one can buy a huuge bottle of Lambrini for under

Price: $220,000. Reason: it's the first watch of it's kind to operate lubricant-free, thus eliminating the need for services. It utilizes types of experimental and manufactured materials to keep it lightweight.

There's more, but you can read it here:

JLC Extreme LAB Watch

If that watch doesn't make $200K spent on it worth its' money, I don't know what does.

I agree, a service-free watch is certainly a technological quantum leap forward, but seriously, look at the watch itself.

Inadequate dial markers, with most likely non-existant lume, so only usefull during the day, and, an aesthetic which only lends itself to a sporting event (but lacking the chrono functions to actually be usefull) It's certainly not a watch which someone could wear with a suit (and expect to look smart). It's without question a nice watch, but, in terms of aesthetics, functionality and versatility, it comes up short, so R&D costs not withstanding, (obviously, a company will want to recoup costs) I wouldn't say that that watch was worth the price tag. In terms of costs of materials, maybe, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt, but, other than that, no way.

An example of this is Nike trainers. They cost relatively little to produce, I'm not sure of the exact figure but I think its about $10. Then the more popular models are sold with a huge mark-up which simply doesn't justify its price. An alternate pair of trainers or 'kicks' will perform the exact same function and cost a lot less. The price difference is not for a higher quality product, but purely for brand name. This exists in even Nike's own line of trainers. Take the Air Force One line of trainers for example, some models will cost A LOT more than others because they are 'limited editions', there is no actual difference in quality between this limited edition and the more lower priced one.

even if it does perform fellatio whenever you want it to

Absolutely so, that's precicely what I was trying to point out. Another example, albeit one I didn't think to elaborate on, is Gillette razors. In my headshaving research, I found out some interesting things about King Camp Gillette, and subsequently, the products which now carry his name. Gillette razors, not only have to compete with other brands of razor, but also, their own products. Now, I bought packs of Gillette Blue IIs for shaving my head, as I wanted something which was cheap and disposeable (I now need to investigate if Gillette sell any single-bladed razors, to solve the clogging issue) I figured that they would be (obviously ) cheaper than the FusionsStealth blades, even if the shave was not quite as close.

I couldn't see the point in having one set of razors for my head, and another for my face, so, when I'd shaved my head, I just carried on with the same razor. Imagine my surprize, when I found that the Blue II gave just as close a shave, as my Fusion had provided At way less cost Talk about the power of advertizing right there Of course, my next test, will be to try using the Fusion, and comparing the performance, but, I suspect, that the cheaper razor, will actually be better for my purposes (less clogging, so longer useable lifespan)

That's not to say that brandnamed products can't be good. As previously mentioned, my Apple-branded earphones deliver excellent sound quality. But. That's not to say that a generic product couldn't be as good. (although obviously it would depend on the product itself, as some generics are better than others. Just as some rep watches are better (mechanically/functionally speaking) than others.)

I could afford the pricetag bacause i sold all my reps. I am not rich and buying the 112 was a very thoughtfull decision I am not regreting.

I am sure many people here have reps worth more than a gen watch. Do they need all their watches?

Everything in life is relevant and the question 'Is Panerai overpriced' is basically stupid (sorry t )

I think you misunderstood my tone, K. I wasn't criticising you (or how you were able to afford a PAM), I was just pointing out that just because someone (could be anyone, not you specifically) can afford to buy the product, that does not justify the pricetag which the company chose to put on it

He's neat. Here are a few pics, just got him home tonight. I usually don't post on this board, but this fella isn't your typical feline...

C'mon, you can tell us... He's really an Ashera, isn't he

Awesome looking guy, I'm sure he'll be a great companion

@TeeJay's reply: "Until folks realize that, in the main, brandnames are a con, then prices will remain high."

In this statement, contains your point-de-vue of the world. And where you and I differ, gently.

To me, a brand is like a family name: if it's worth anything at all, it has standards, it has heritage, it has accoutability. I'm willing to pay more for that. I'm not a Benthamist, looking for utility. If I were, I'd be into Timexes.

Of course, right now, that claim sounds hollow in terms of Panerai. But that will change, soon!

That's a fair point, and to be honest, one I agree with. Most of the electrical equipment I've ever bought myself, has either been Sony or Panasonic. The majority of my mobile phones have been Motorola (the others Nokias) I've always shaved with Gillette razors and shaving products. Brand loyalty, for a worthy product, is not the same (although very very similar) to product worship, where consumers think that X Brand is The Best, and will pay through the nose for it. (funny expression that, I wonder where it comes from ) That said, I wouldn't pay more for a product than I felt it was worth. Sure, I've bought Sony consoles since the PlayStation came out, but, only when the prices were what I felt was reasonable. I never bought them immediately upon release, because I felt it was something I had to have, and would never pay more for said product, than I felt was reasonable. If that makes any sense...

No it's not overpriced for me. I have a gen 112 for 2 years and never regreted buying it. That'a the reason for my answer.

Being able to afford the pricetag, and being able to justify the pricetag, are two different things Personally, I don't feel many 'luxury goods' justify their pricetags, compared to actual 'product value'...

Actually I think it is more about supply and demand. In luxury branded products it is up to the marketing department to develop that demand.

I think you could be right there

Of course you know this, Teej, but just to say that Panerai are not charging 20k-25k for the Fiddy. That's the price appreciation between collectors.

Indeed, maybe not Corporate Greed as such, but, still a sign that all the time people are prepared to pay the price, people will charge it

It's a very special watch.

Sure, but, equally, to some, it could be considered a monstrousity (It's certainly a perversion of a watch, regardless of for or against ) I mean, the case is huge, the crystal is huge, the crystal permantly distorts the dial markings, the gold hands detract from the simplicity of the black hands of a regular Luminor, all in all, it's got more criticiseable points than plus points. Ooh, it has a nice clear dial... It looks nice... (depending on one's point of view )

I think much of it's mystique among gen collectors (I'm not really into the risti crowd, so can't say for 100% sure) could well be that it's a limited edition, thus more desireable to some collectors.

I think they got it right with their original price, TBH.

But, was it honestly worth that price either... Sure, it might have been a reasonable price as far as the rest of their catalogue goes, but, in term of actual materials etc, it's still a heck of a hike in price from $500 for something which will be aesthetically and functionally, just as good. 'Gen' is just a qualifier. No rep can ever be a gen, but, that doesn't mean that a rep can't be as good as a gen... If it was down to a bar 'wrist comparison', I'd put my money behind some of the more unique, and modified reps here, than some city boy's gen daydate...

However, on paper I agree -- I love Vacherons, but are they really worth $50,000? I mean, really and truly?

Really and truly, no. And, if they're not really worth the money, then how can any like product be worth the money?

500 years ago, men died on the High Seas for some pepper and cumin. Now we can buy them for a few pennies at the supermarket. Tout passe, tout casse, tout lasse...

If pepper and cumin where still being shipped in by people at risk from scurvy, floggings, and a run-in with BlackBeard, I'm sure the prices would be reflective of that Indeed, times have changed, but changed in various ways, and for various reasons. Until folks realize that, in the main, brandnames are a con, then prices will remain high.

The one example of a brandname product being better than a generic one, I can admit to, is a set of earphones I recently bought for my MP3 player. I bought a set of Apple-branded earphones for use with my phone, and my seperate MP3 player, as, the headphones for the player kept popping out of my ears, and, the set which came with my phone got damaged... Anyhoo, with the standard earphones which came with the MP3 player, I had to have the volume set at 20, just to get a reasonable playback (it was a cheap player, and one I've since made redundant with a Samsung player) with the new Apple earphones, 20 was not only loud, but exceptionally good quality playback. As with any soundsystem, better quality speakers means better quality playback. But. Were the headphones good just because they were Apple-branded, or, would other generic headphones (possibly by the same manufacturer) be equally as good? Also, when I was passing through London, I saw that the majority of people with 'white earphones', had the same model as I'd bought, so, from that point of view, they are clearly a good quality model, or people wouldn't be using them, and would replace them with an aftermarket set.

I think the real issue is one of product value compared to product price.

If a date function is a requirement, how about PAM 104 or 029a? The 029a has a GMT feature, which, might be a redundancy with your Rolex GMT, or, it might be an alternative watch rather to one you're not happy with. The 104's a nice simple watch. Not as plain as a 112, as it has both seconds at 9, and a date window, but, if you want a date window, it covers that requirement. PAMs are extremely versatile watches, and, with the right strap, can go with any outfit. Okay, so the 127 is a tad snug under a shirt cuff, but, an 029a or 104 shouldn't have that problem.

Best of luck with your purchase, and welcome to the party

I think people who are into watches sometimes know TOO much about watches, and consequently say to themselves, there is no way I am paying 20 thou for a Fiddy. It's not worth it.

But a wise man or woman could've made $11,000 in two years if they had bought one. Who are the losers now?

I'm of the opinion that no 'brand-name' product is actually worth it's inflated price tag. Wether someone will pay the price tag, is a different matter. Equally, just because someone is prepared to pay that price tag, I do not think that actually justifies said price tag in terms of product value for money. This is an opinion I hold thanks to generic products and reps, which, for my purposes, are quite adequate.

The 127 is a prime example. $20K for a watch is crazy. That money could buy a car, a deposit on a house. But. Is the 127 really worth that much money? If reps of it can be sole for say $200, which are functionally, just as good as the gen, and, with another $300 (tops) spent on modifications such as relume or cannon pinion fix, are aesthetically just as good, how is the rest of the cost justified? R&D? Designer's fees? Not that much, and, certainly costs which would have been recouped long ago. I don't think someone can know too much about something, especially if that opens their eyes to the rip-off world of Corporate Greed. Good job McCarthy isn't still around, he'd have me hunted down as a Commie

Couldn't he be discharged for 'conduct unbecoming', or somesuch?

Yes, the dog was obviously dead. But. That does not justify his act of desecration. NOTHING can justify an act like that. Even if that was a mass grave, there is no reason for flinging remains into it in such an undignified manner.

As mentioned before, pure redneck trash, not the kind of guy anyone wants watching their back, and no business wearing a uniform. Absolute, 100% utter scumbag. If he's getting death-threats and threats to have his house burned down, good. Maybe that'll make him realize what an utter c*ntrag he is.

Absolutely awesome tests and pictures, I can't wait for the next tests

Hmm...

Let me think...

Putting a rep near water...

Probably not the best idea...

Joking aside, I've never really had a problem with putting a decent rep in water. I admit, I haven't gone diving in one, but, thus far, they've all stood up to everyday immersion, all the way up to swimming hard against a wave machine.

A decently constructed rep, of something like a PAM or Submariner, is likey to be just as waterproof as it's genuine counterpart, afterall, both include a solid case, gasgets, screw/lock down crown etc, so should, by nature of the design, be reasonably waterproof. If a dealer sells a watch as waterproof, I'd test it tentatively before going for a swim, but, I'd certainly never pay extra to have a watch which was 'guaranteed' as being waterproofed prior to shipping. Given the track record for folks who have done so, it's pretty obvious that this is just an extra way for the dealer to skim a few extra bucks from people, but providing absolutely nothing. If the watch doesn't leaked, hey, it was waterproofed ( ) If it leaks, oh, sorry, they must've made a mistake doing it... Culpable deniability.

I say wear them in water, and to hell with the consequences, if it floods, just buy a new watch. Besides, nothing's going to scream 'FAKE!!!' to associates at a pool party more than someone nervously removing an SS watch prior to getting in. Leather, sure, that's excuseable, no one wants to get a leather strap wet and ruin the strap, but SS or rubber, why the hesitation?

We all know that the watch wholesalers get their watches from the factories.

How is this achieved, there are literally thousands of sellers, of different brands and quality.

How many factories ? 5, 6 , ........12 ?

Could the factories have wholesale wharehouses set up ?

Do the dealers simply go to a factory shop? ( factory outlet ).

Could there be dozens of rep. representatives hawking the different models around?

Whichever way it is done, has to be on quite a big scale.

Any ideas ?

This topic is way , way off the original subject.

(See Above ).

I think the process of 'factories' has already been described, as people building parts obtained from various places, in places of various conditions. Some might class them as 'sweatshops', others, might not. They are most likely not 'factories' as western business would define a factory (in either structure or working environment), and, asking the question again, is not going to yield a different answer...

The question was already answered, although clearly not with the answer you wanted.

As Samuel L. Jackson said to John Travolta in Pulp Fiction:

"If my answers frighten you, Vincent, you should cease to ask scary questions..."

I'd suggest a Panerai 127. Very versatile, and, depending on the strap you wear it on, it will go with anything. For an even more casual look, I'd suggest the Panerai submersible/Arktos (not sure which it is) with '1000' on the dial. Freaking awesome watch.

Gorgeous, Fendushi. Is Breitling the one marque that never has put a foot wrong? I can't find one watch of theirs, that looks off.

(And that's after not liking Breits at first! Just like Panerai...)

I guess it's just a matter of personal taste. I tried on a gen SFSO in a jewellers, as I was thinking about getting a rep for my collection. My immediate feeling upon getting it on my wrist?

I just didn't like it. Not one bit.

Now, you may think, "But you didn't like PAMs the first time you tried them..." and,that would be quite true. I didn't. But. The thing that I really disliked about the SFSO, as gorgeous as it is, was, compared to the case size, the actualy dial size was rather small. Almost like sticking a Submariner dial, in a Planet Ocean Case. I like big dials for practical, as well as aesthetic reasons, so quite simply, the watch failed to meet my prime criteria. Absolutely lovely watch, just not for me at all. As I said, just a matter of personal taste

Back to wrist checks, here's a shot I promised you last week, and all I can say is 'me luv you long time' (Or should that be, me ruv you rong time? ), as, having worked up the nerve to put the springbars in, this is what I'll be wearing for quite a while

Though this shouldn't make any of us preen, I always mention this to people complaining about sweatshops.

Do RWG Americans recall the infamous Kathy Lee Gifford sweatshop labour scandal?

She was selling her clothing label at Wal-Mart at profit, whilst the Hondurans who were making the garments were paid something like $0.72 per hour to make it. She was outted by a labour activist in the US, and went crying to the factories, vowing that the locals would earn a more decent wage.

What she wasn't told, or because some people just don't grasp this, is that 0.72 U$ per hour in Honduras is "okay".

A loaf of bread costs less than an American nickel. A bus ride doesn't even register in American dollars (in the parallel currency).

I honestly believe that there are some people on this earth that think what they earn and spend in their countries, is what the Third World does too.

Don't think for a moment I am arguing for sweated labour. Just for the perspective.

Absolutely, and I quite agree, what people can sometimes lack, is the perspective to appreciate that different countries and cultures have different economies as well. This was what my friend was saying about Thailand. That someone could spend the night in a 5 star hotel, for the equivelent of

I don't know why the SS would cause an allergic reaction. I am allergic to nickel as well and so is my mother. I have no problem wearing SS reps. I even bought my mom a SS masterpiece and she wears it regularly. I also bought her a genuine two tone datejust and she has no problems. The high grade 316l or better steel is non allergenic. I have had bad reactions from some rep Panerais however. They may use a lower grade steel on the larger watches due to the cost factor. I also get the red bumps and rash from some gold plated watches. My daytonas, subs, yachtmasters and day dates seem to be the most comfortable watches that never have a reaction on me. You may also want to look into a genuine Seiko. I have recently seen the automatic black and orange monsters brand new for $200. Rubber straps and high grade steel you can't go wrong.

As mentioned, this is someone who is extremely sensitive (and to a huge range of things) I had a look into the rock watches, but, they were for the ladies, and this would be for a guy... I think the best option might be something in full titanium. It didn't have to be a rep or even a huge name, just something he could actually wear

Right now everyone is happy with the system we have, yes some will say that the end price is getting too high but in general everyone is still buying their reps.... I wonder how much info it will take to upset the apple cart?

A while back someone made a statement that he wouldn't touch my goods because they were the end result of child sweatshops, now I have good reason to believe this is not the case, yet I could still be wrong.

So does any intelligent person truly believe that part of our watch manufacturing/assembly could not also happen within sweatshops?

How would this affect you?

And again I need to say that if the 'Factory to you' was ever fully covered (and only the dealers know the full story) there would be many within these boards who would be on the first flight to China to seek their fortune and that would be the end of our blissful little hobby.

Ken

I've been told, that, although sweatshop conditions and pay are pitiful by western standards, westerners often forget the very different social conditions in the countries involved, and, to those working in a sweatshop, that is a job which puts food on their table (not much, but it's better than starving to death on the streets) One of my friends used to visit Thailand as a sex tourist (he now lives and works in Tokyo), and he pointed out just how cheap the cost of living in such countries actually is, so sweatshop wages, are not so bad compared to the cost of living. Of course, I only have his word to go on, but, it didn't seem an unreasonable statement, given how much he said other things were costing.

PS Ken, I might have to invest in some of your Nikes soon

A bit late, I know, but I couldn't resist:

"Someone stop the banjo music!"

I don't remember you getting that one, bro

Absolutely awesome watch, though That said, I do fear you may find it to be a none too versatile watch... A tan colored strap can move it away from 'tactical' to 'casual', but, I've not really seen a PVD luminor which looked 'smart'... Ever so, awesome watch, I'm sure it'll get plenty of good wear

Thanks everyone. Ok, I'm going to attempt to take some pics of the watch and I'll post them up along with the saved PM's I have from him. Normally, I would hardly take this sitting down, but I sort of chalked it up to the learning curve for the rep world, but like TeeJay stated, these things should be brought to light. Especially, because I see that the same person has had several other items up for sale within the last few days. Thanks again everyone.

No problem, I'll be interested to see the photos. Learning curve is maybe using a less well-known dealer, and not getting something as expected. There're established members who say they now prefer to only buy from other members, as they have a better idea about what they're getting, and, if someone's a forum supporter, that should be a positive sign, so, for you to have this kind of experience with a forum supporter, is worrying.

Best of luck with things