TeeJay

The HBB's never really been my cup of tea, but that's an awesome watch, and a fantastic price deal

Read post no. 2 in this thread.

Sorry, I missread your post

That really is one of the risks of a rep. I have a similar flaw on my Rolex Daytona, where one of the marker lines is actually printed at the wrong angle. That said though, it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the watch, because I accept that as a rep, I can't expect 100% perfection or fidelity to the original. For that, one must by genuine...

With regards a reliable watchsmith, I would recommend trying an independant jeweller/watchsmith as they're more likely to be prepared to work on such an item, and simply view it as 'a watch'. Any kind of branch of a chain is likely to get snooty and uppity about it, so best to avoid those. Is PT not prepared to send you a replacement dial?

Best of luck

I went and researched the heck out of this subject over at FTC. I am fully ready to give up my stance if I am incorrect. However, I cam across a great explanation for handmade:

So that is the best description I have found. I was using the wrong words in mechanical devices or machines. This shows the best explanation of the law from the FTC. No use of electricity. Hope that helps.

We're not talking about jewellery though, are we, we're talking about watch straps, so that definition does not apply. Besides, the other definition said 'manually-controlled', and such things, electrical or otherwise, are still manually-controlled.

What the hell is "Admin the Tank Engine?"

There's a childrens TV character called Th0mas the Tank Engine. It would appear that there's a word filter which changes each use of the name to 'Admin'

Hmm, I know the feeling.... You never exactly know what you gonna get when you order a strap from a pic. I have 2 straps comming up from the Watchboys and Don, but I have to admit I'm a bit scared, since they're a bit pricey and I hope the color and texture will meet my expectations from the pic....

Have you already checked straps from BOB? They offer very nice quality for an affordable price. For the 111 I can reccomand the honey gator strap hxxp://www.waccex.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=470 and the tobaco brown gator strap hxxp://www.waccex.de/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=145_147_176&products_id=468. You can compare these straps with your basic white or black T-shirt

Thanks for the links, I'll give them a look Something that did rather shock me, was the StrapCulture Legend thread. The SC photo shows a gorgeous mahogany colored strap (one I've considered getting) but the strap received, was a rather indistinct 'brown'... Not particalarly inspiring in confidence.... Thanks again for the links

Trick?? There is no trick. I was asking pure and simple. I wasn't trying to "trip" you up in any way. Like I said a simple yes or no would suffice. I really want to know what you think. In these cases would you say it was handmade?

I am not back peddling anything. The statement "by hand labor and manually-controlled methods" are not two different methods. They are one in the same. Go to the article at the FTC before you spout any more ignorant comments. "And" is not a conjunction but rather an inclusion. The article goes on to explain that manually controlled means hand tools. NO mechanical devices.

Just because you used your hands to make something does not mean it is "handmade". As I have stated, that would be ridiculous to say, that just because a human hand was involved it is handmade.

Perhaps 'trick' was an ill-chosen word. As I said, Yes or No did not really apply to those questions as it was not a 'black or white' answer, but a definitely grey one. As I said before, while I acknowledge that there is a definite difference between a strap sewn by hand, and one done on a sewing machine, nothing will change the fact that the sewing machine will only do what the operator wants it to do. In both instances, be it hand sewing or by sewing machine, the maker is responsible for what happens.

The rest of the article is of no interest to me whatsoever. The quote you provided summed up perfectly. You are now proving my point for me. They are not two different methods, but one in the same. As I said in my past post, are those tools, mechanical or otherwise, controlled by the operator? The simple answer is "Yes they are". As long as something is 'manually-controlled', then that, by the definition given, allows the product to come under the catagory.

The point still stands about the electric guitars.

The point also stands that if you want to insist on 'hand-made' being such an exclusive standard, then only Human hands can be used in the process, and, as pointed out with the comment about chewing through leather, is a standard I doubt any artisan works to. As I said, I'd be prepared to compromise between the two and call such items 'hand-tooled' as that covers both the human and the tool aspects. If you disagree, so be it, we will have to agree to disagree, as I am not prepared to keep debating an issue which has not only become cyclical, but one where definitions you provided actually counter your own argument, and I see no reason to keep reitterating the same points which that definition also specifies.

... apart from the linking of Counterfeiting to Terrorism is complete and utter fabrication. There is no link between Terrorism and counterfeit watches.

That's what I thought was interesting about it While I'd be the first to admit that radical Islamic terrorism is a problem, articles like that make me wonder if terrorism hasn't become 'the new communism'...

Don't like how someone looks? Call them a terrorist...

Don't like what someone believes in? Call them a terrorist...

Don't like how another country runs it's affairs? Call them terrorists...

McCarthy would be proud

I was tempted to take a photo of my copy of the Holy Qur'an surrounded by my reps, but that would be disrespectful and borderline blasphemous, and I don't particularly want to get myself smited

There are super reps but sadly super gens too, the first are nice enough to satisfy (and they will get better and better as long as 5th or 6th generations will be coming out ) but the super gens I want are monstrously expensive (way above 20K) and are not repped...

I know the feeling... I know it's unlikely to ever be done, but I would love to see a rep of the HD3 Capture

I know what you mean about waiting to get it. I have the 42mm version, which was given to me as a gift. Having seen pictures of the orange PO, I wasn't over interested in it, and likely wouldn't have bought one for myself. However, being given one, is a different matter, and I figured it would twin nicely with my black 42mm PO. When it arrived, I was shocked and surprized by how nice the orange color actually is. It's not at all as garish as it can appear in photos, but is a nicely muted color. I don't wear the watch as I killed the movement by trying to work out how to regulate it, and that asside, the color just isn't really 'my style', that said, it is a really nice watch, and I can't see myself ever parting with it. I hope you get lots of wear from yours

Ok maybe this will finally end it.

A simple yes or no will suffice.

If a strap is stitched by using a sewing machine and edges are finished by using a bench grinder, is that still considered handmade?

If a strap is cut out by a leather cutting machine (table), stitched by using a sewing machine and edges are finished by using a bench grinder, is that still considered handmade?

Sorry, but that trick doesn't work in this instance Those things, sewing machine, cutting table, bench grinder, etc, are all manually-controlled by the maker, as per the definition YOU provided.

I agree, it is not the same as someone hand stitching the strap, or cutting the leather by hand with a fixed blade knife, but that isn't the point. The point, which the FTC definition allowed, was for hand work AND manually-controlled methods.

Is a sewing machine manually controlled? Yes or No.

Is a leather cutting machine manually controlled? Yes or No.

Is a bench grinder manually controlled? Yes or No.

Sorry, but YOU provided the FTC definition, and that quite clearly said:

by hand labor and manually-controlled methods

Don't try back-peddling just because your definition has actually worked against you. As I said, I'm happy with the term 'hand-tooled'. It covers both, which, is what the FTC guideline allows for. Hand labor and manually-controlled methods.

One poster simply recommended putting clear nail polish over the SS caseback of the Chanel J12.... I kinda like that idea.... anything else? She doesn't like my PAM's (GEN or REP) seeing as how she is TINY. (as in my Rolex pieces look huge on her).

Thanks again guys!

I've heard people say about using clear laquer to prevent a nickel reaction before as well. The one thing I would say, is that such a coating might require periodic replacement... If Rolexes look huge on her, then a PAM would be ludicrously oversized... The Chanel J12 comes in a 33mm case, so should be about right, and, I'd still suggest putting it on a bund strap thus: (sorry for the poor photos, but they'll give you the idea)

You just don't get it do ya?

Go to the FTC website and look up the discussions on this matter. Manually controlled, means every aspect of said tool. A dremel for instance would be manually controlled only if the head was not spinning. At that point you are not manually controlling the tool. If you just held a dremel with sanding drum and rubbed back and forth with it, that would be manually controlled.

You two are getting ridiculous now. I will end this. I think people understand FACTS over "general acceptance" which the acceptance hasn't been proven but the facts are.

I jsut don't get "why" you have to fight the proven standard of the dictionary and the FTC. I bet if I we did have that book, after we both found out it was 7" instead. You would still claim your 8".

I don't get it?? Your're the one trying to dispute a definition you yourself provided.

HANDMADE - The FTC defines handmade as entire shaping and forming of a product from raw materials and accomplishing the finishing and decoration by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of the product.

Just to clarify, that says:

by hand labor and manually-controlled methods

and:

which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of the product.

Now, those are your own quotes and definitions (or at least ones you are providing) and as for your comments about a dremel, you're just digging yourself further into the hole as the speed of a dremel is manually adjustable (controllable), and thus, fits into the definition you yourself provided. As I said before, I'm happy to compromize and use the term 'hand-tooled', but to be honest, the FTC definition you provided allowed for both hand labor and manually-controlled methods (aka tools)

I have been posted to work in Beijing and have picked up the hobby of collecting rep watches. This is my collection of rep Panerai.

I am a newbie at this, so I will probably be lurking here to learn from the pros All advice welcomed, Thanks!

jumpy

Nice collection A PVD PAM is on my 'must have' list. Welcome to the party

Yes, you forgot finshing, conditioning, holes punched, QC.

Sorry, I considered hole punching in with braddling, and as for finishing and QC, that's just standard procedure. It goes without saying that an artisan checks their work, so doesn't really belong on the list...

Yes, you forgot finshing, conditioning, holes punched, QC.

btw, just wanted to add this:

HANDMADE - The FTC defines handmade as entire shaping and forming of a product from raw materials and accomplishing the finishing and decoration by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of the product.

This includes the definition of the dictionary and also the greater public. So there is still no room for machines, no matter how you look at it.

Really.

HANDMADE - The FTC defines handmade as entire shaping and forming of a product from raw materials and accomplishing the finishing and decoration by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of the product.

Sorry, but that would mean using tools of any variety, as long as they are manually controlled, which was the point I made several times above...

Cowabunga!

Not normally a fan of the watch, but with that suit, it all works really well

After 'the incident' with 'the other strap', I got the 111h back on it's stock strap ASAP. (old pic)

Really excited for the Toscana Light Chestnut Bone Crocodile strap to arrive which V so kindly got me :wub:

After reading this, I think we are getting things cconfused.

I am talking about hand made. You seem to be talking about making something that incorporates using your hands. They are two different things. I'll give an example. A car is made using machines and also by using humans to put parts on by hand. Now the parts of the car that are put on by hand are not "hand made". They are simply put together by a human who has to use his/her hands to complete the task. Now you wouldn't say a car was handmade. Would you?

While I would certainly not say that a branded 'production car' was hand made, I would say that that term could definitely be applied at a 'kit car', or extensively modified hot-rod where the owner has essentially built it from the ground up by fabricating panals. A comment I read on a car forum, which I think somewhat fitting, was "You can only do so much work before a 'restoration' project becomes a 'replica'." Personally, I think that statement is a Ship of Theseus debate, but I think it still fits with this issue, of what percentage of the work must be done by hand for it to be considered 'hand made'.

Your example of a hutch does not make it handmade. It just means you built it yourself. Handmade has it's definition, which holds true. Just because something is made with the aid of a person's hand does not make it "handmade". Another example would be my couch. People use mechanical devices to put it together with their hands. That does not make it handmade however. It just means it was fabricated with the use of hands.

In which case, you would possibly find the term 'hand tooled' more appropriate in terms of strict definition? As an artist, I certainly agree that there is a difference between making something entirely by hand and using elbow grease rather than a power-tool to make something. However, this is not about what you or I consider 'hand made', but what the buying public are prepared to tollerate and accept thus. As far as the uninformed public are concerned, 'hand tooled' is the same as hand made.

Asking whether or not you have made a strap, points more to you don't know the work invloved so you are not a source to determine whether stitching is 50% of a strap.

I might not have made a strap, but as mentioned, I have worked on other, and similar, projects. I may not be an expert, but I do know the work involved. Dyeing, pattern cutting, braddling, gluing, stitching. Have I missed anything out?

By volume it is not, as there is more leather showing than stitching. But in the process of making a strap, stitching takes over 50% of the process time and construction. That was in response to what the previous poster said.

My point was not what took more of the process time, but that the stitching does not make up 50% of the volume of the strap. I said that quite clearly. Stitching may indeed take a majority of the process time, and sometimes, it can play a crucial part of the structure and even appearance of the strap, but in terms of product volume, the point I was making, the majority is composed of the leather the strap is made from.

The question comes to you. What is the reason you don't accept the standard (the dictionary)? I mean if we were have a book and I said it was 6" long and you said it was 8" long, but then we get a standard (a ruler) and find out it's 7" long, we would both have to give up our opinions as to what the true dimension is.

It is not a case that I do not accept the standard, it is a case of the dictionary definition not being the overall public opinion, as I mentioned above re 'hand made' Vs 'hand tooled'. The dictionary definition may well be what it is, but that does not mean that that is what people necessarily think, and it is this issue of perception, which I feel outweighs 'pure definition'.

It's the same with handmade. There is no tolerance or other definition, except:

made by hand, rather than by machine

No mechanical devices. So you can argue all you want, but the fact remains, no machines.

To which the point returns as Oszolom said. While I would not consider a knife to be mechanical, it is still a tool, and as I said, unless you want to make a strap with absolutely no tools whatsoever, then you cannot argue that the straps are 'hand made'. I believe our disagreement is with the relevence of the tool (whatever it may be) within the process. I agree that the definition is the definition, but as mentioned above, the general public would certainly consider something 'hand tooled' to be 'hand made'. Maybe not factually accurate, but still their overall opinion.

I mean if we are to use "your" definition, then every strap is handmade. Every car would be as well. Anything that had a human hand invloved is considered handmade. There is no magic machine, where someone puts a load of ingredients into it and out pops a finished product. Human hands are involved in the steps of everything made.

As mentioned above, 'hand tooled', rather than 'hand made', then to things it applies, certainly. Most cars are built on assembly lines which operate without human interaction, although they could certainly be classified as 'hand finished', as people have to put the parts together, as with a watch. As I said before, it is a matter of semantics.

I ordered the strap when the watch arrived, but it's not really what I wanted. I'd anticipated a brushed calf, a lighter color, and constant thickness rather than tapered sides. This brown (to the naked eye) it too dark... It looks black... I only put it on the watch to take a photo of it. I'm a bit disapointed, but, it only cost me

The reason they have been ignored is because to YOU they are considered hand made, but they are NOT by definiton. And thus your opinion is not fact, so therefore your idea of them being handmade is incorrect.

So a machine built my guinea pig hutch and I had nothing whatsoever to do with it?

An artists painting is using hand tools. Nothing mechanical there.

An artist's airbrush is a mechanical device, or do you think a Chip Foose should use a straw and puddle of paint to coat a car?

A sculpturer who uses hammer and chisel again is using hand tools and no mechanical devices. If a sculpturer was to use power/mechanical tools, this would take them out of the hand made realm.

The tools used are just that. Tools. They are there to make the job easier and give more precise results. They require skill, and in some cases, training to use. Using tools which require a human hand to guide them take nothing away from any artisan's craft. Now, if you were to be talking about a CNC lathe or Calypso WaterJet, then I would agree, that would not be a hand-made part, but all the time it is a human hand guiding a tool, people are prepared to consider that as 'hand worked' as it is a human being in control of the process.

I don't know where you keep getting this "in the real world" stuff. No one I know of, says a person can use mechanical devices in the process and it can still be labeled as handmade. That is a fabrication of your own opinion. But not "real world" standard.

From experience of people's expectations and tollerances. As another poster mentioned previously, even consumers purchassing a 'hand-made' item would not expect the artisan to go to the lengths described above, ie biting through the leather yourself etc. The standard you are endorsing is a dictionary definition, which does not always apply to the practical reality of 'arts and crafts', and, when taken to the point described above, is a ludicrous standard to either apply, or expect an artisan to work to.

You have never made a strap. I have made many of them.

Good for you. I have made many things more complex than a strap. The fact I have not made that specific item, does not mean that I cannot grasp the concept.

I can tell you that in a few cases stitching may be more asthetic, but in the majority of cases it makes up a structual part of the strap.

It might be what holds the strap together, but it is still not 50% of what is making the strap. As said before, the leather of the main sections of the strap is the majority component. Some people makes straps with hardly any stitching at all, only enough to create the tunnels for the lug pins/screws and the buckle.

Furthermore, only people who want to pervert the simple definition to increase profits, notarity, etc are the ones who claim as long as you work with your hands it is hand made, no matter the tool. My point of 99% of the things I own, could be labeled as hand made if that were the case, is what is being ignored.

I don't care about 99% of the things you own, as unless you want to catalogue and justify each example, they are not the issue of discussion. Your insistance on 'hand made' being solely that, as illustrated above, is frankly laughable, so unless you want to make a strap to the methods described above, I'd let the issue drop. If you have that much of an issue with people claiming something as 'hand made' and using tools to do so, then complain to trading standards and get the site shut down, as they are clearly scammers

beyond that i find a genuine enthusiasm and depth of knowledge amongst many on the rep boards that sadly lacking from the gen world, now filled with many treating them like stocks

I couldn't agree more. People on rep boards tend to have way more knowledge and actual appreciation for horology than gen collectors who know little to nothing about the subject.

Interesting article

I have no problems with paying a comparative king's ransom for a gen watch I could get on the cheap, because I honestly believe that intellectual property is not to be dismissed as mere capitalist excess. There is nothing wrong with charging a high price if you believe your R&D, your marque's high performance record and history demand said price.

Not to disagree with you personally, but that is the company's attitude towards sales which I disagree with. They might think that their product is worth X, but if it's really only worth Y, then that's what they should charge. The example I use which best sums this up, is the clasp of a Rolex. Thin, stamped metal with sharp edges... The rep bracelets (if they have the correct links) feel identical to the gen bracelets... Personally, I don't think that on a watch of Rolex's reputation and cost, thin, stamped metal is acceptable as a deployant. Compared to clasps on Omegas, VCs, even PAMs, Rolex's clasps are definitely the most 'incongruous' to the comparitive quality of the overall watch, yet still people (ie the general public ) consider Rolex as The Watch to own... Sure, they're nice, but there are nicer watches... Anyhoo, that's getting away from my point... My point on pricing, is that if a company can outsource their product enough to bring their production costs down, why not adjust the retail cost accordingly? I know they charge what they charge because there will always be someone prepared to pay the price tag, and in marketing and retail, I know that's the overall 'point', but ethically and morally speaking, why charge more for a product than it genuinely costs to produce... (I know, R&D costs as well, but I think it's safe to say Rolex recouped those losses a long time ago ) I guess at the end of the day, I just object to consumerism and corporate greed setting prices for products. Another example of my feeling... Personally, I find Bic Biros the best 'all round' pen. They're comfortable and light, cheap to replace, and, from an artist's point of view, give such a variety of quality of line, that they are incredibly versatile. Now, if I could buy a generic biro which provided a comparable performance to the Bic, at a lower cost, I'd buy the generic over the 'brandname'... Hope that all makes sense

Somewhere I read that Aldo Gucci would go up to American women in NYC, and question them about their bags. If he found a fake, he would chastise them very strongly, but in that gallant Italian way -- "Nonono", shaking his finger.

Hee hee Personally, I'd be flattered that people liked my product enough to buy a replica. Sure, the money for it wouldn't be going in my pocket, but it would at least mean that the buyer liked it

LOL!

And yes, I meant rubber diver strap, the black variety like this.

With deployant.

Not the SS bracelet, since (1) I remembered one was on its way. (2) Nhuh-uh! I only have one and I'm not giving that up even for His Royal Sweetness!

Browns it is. I have LOTS of those too. Very few blacks...

EDIT: TeeJay, I will send this off the moment I look presentable and not like some freakshow attraction...seriously, I'm vain. ;( Hopefully, by Monday!

That'll look awesome Something I have noticed, is that in the main, people seem to prefer brown/red straps on PAMs rather than black. Not that it really matters, jsut something I've noticed

That's okay, and no hurry at all. You don't need to apologize for vanity, I'm something of a narcissist, so I quite understand

Strange little coinkidink, a jeweller's just phoned to confirm that the el cheapo brown strap I ordered just arrived, so I'll have to go pick it up later In theory, it's brown calf, but having only seen a photo, I can't vouch for the quality at that price, so time (and a wrist shot later ) will tell... Chances are, it'll only be on the watch till this new strap arrives, I have a feeling that that's going to become the permanant strap

Have you ever made a strap?

No, I haven't. I have, however, worked on many other projects which were 'by hand', some requiring more use of tools than others. Look at the examples I gave previously of where 'power tools' were involved, but the overall project was still done 'by hand'. I notice that the two times they've been cited, they have been ignored...

Is a painting not done 'by hand', because an artist uses a brush rather than their fingers?

Is a sculpture not done 'by hand', because the artist uses a variety of tools?

As I said, I accept that the dictionary definition is as it is, but seriously, in the real world, there are loads of things which people consider to be 'hand made' even when the artisan involved uses labor-saving tools. The tool is not taking anything away from the skill of the artisan, it just improves their productivity.

dude, sorry, but this is so wrong any leather can be brought to superb quality with oils and finishs. The thing that really matter are edges and stitchings.

But that is my point of view and your experiance may vary

Cheers,

Kuba

Edging and stitching are 'window dressing' of a strap. They are the 'icing on the cake'. As I said before, the majority component of the strap, is the material the primary shapes are made from. That's not to say that the other things are not important, of course they are. The point I was making, was that stitching, in terms of physical composition, does not make up 50% of a strap. Aesthetically, sure, I'd say it might well contribute 50% of the appearance, but certainly not 50% of the physical composition.