TeeJay

Let me make somethings VERY CLEAR here:

I have to say that your thinking is a little biased.

If my thinking is biased, it is biased by my experiences dealing with the Chinese on a personal and professional level for over a decade. It is biased by OBSERVATION and FACT, and an understanding of both cultures, not ignorant racial prejudice.

Chinese...bad ethics. Westerners...good ethics. LOL!

I NEVER said one was good, one was bad, I said that the two are VERY DIFFERENT and what is acceptable to one group, is not acceptable to the other. That does not mean one is better than the other, it just means they are DIFFERENT. Those differences need to be acknowledged and understood so they can be anticipated and overcome.

You obviously don't live in the US!

No, I am British.

Do you actually think that replacing these dealers (who have been around a long time and earned the trust of a lot of members despite the current issues) would be replaced by westerners????

I don't care who replaces them, as long as they are HONEST. My dealer is Chinese. We are good friends, and he has always done the utmost to make sure I get precicely what I ask for, even to the point of swapping straps for me (hence my black dial Daytona on tan leather) I couldn't care less where these dealers are FROM as long as they are HONEST.

My point simply stated is that you stand a real chance of winning the battle and losing the war. No one is justifying the dealer misrepresentations which clearly need to be dealt with, but a lot of the members are becoming disenfranchised with the level of discourse taking place and are losing their enthusiasm for this place. You may be justified in terms of your outrage.. and you can take solace in being right on the pricinple when we lose the participatin of our fellow members and friends.

p.s. it may interest you to know that I have had little dealings with the dealers in question.. and I do feel strongly about supporting the smaller dealers.. back even to the point paying a bit more and waiting a longer time for delivery... That was a personal choice I made a while ago because of quality of service and because keeping competitors on the field is important to me. This is not about me continuing to buy from the big 4. I just do not want to lose my virtual friends and colleages and see this place fall apart over because of what we are turning into. I enjoy the interaction too much for that.

While I see what you're saying, I find it dissapointing that there are not more people totally up in arms about this issue, as it is something that affects everyone here.

I have no experience of Chinese culture in terms of business, (practising Jeet Kune Do doesn't count does it? ) so I can't reply to this as it will be through feeling rather than fact. One thing I do think though is that due to being a replica forum, we have dealers of highest quality here, and I don't think they would begin sordid business practice due to the actions of a few others. If any new dealers felt they could continue in the bad footsteps in misrepresnting they would be gone in an instant. (which is where your point lies I believe, in why 'should they have anymore chances?')

Ok I did reply, thus contradicting my second line

As been pointed out, when it comes to business, the Chinese will say whatever they think you want to hear to get your business, but then do whatever they want. Someone else pointed out that US companies had to maintain an active presense in their 'outsourced' businesses if they wanted things to be run as per US Standards. The thing that was also pointed out, was that this is a purely Chinese trait, and that the Japanese are totally fine to do business with. (Personally, I've found that Thai people are also totally fine to do business with)

And no, practicing Jeet une Do doesn't count

And yes, that was the point I was trying to make about giving them 2nd chances.

I see your point. A new dealer who came in and acted in this way would be given the shove. They have been around for a long time and should know better than to do such a thing. Personally I feel a harsher punishment is the most suitable. I think a ban forever is too harsh. Stopping their dealer rights and outside linking would protect noobs from any possible direct future problems. Ok, people can recommend them, but the mods would have to duly take that unto themselves to prevent such recommendations being made publicly. It would also allow them to re-establish themselves and maybe if they can PROVE to us that it won't happen again, they can be re-instated. This would show them we do mean it and anymore acts such as the ones we have seen will be followed by a suggestion to hop skip and......

Hell I've only been here for a year, so I could be talking out my [censored] here. This is my view. They have completely abused their trust, is it forgiveable? If it were to never happen again, tkae a punishment and learn from it I think so.

It is clear that we are all after one thing - - - - A safe community. Now again this all comes down to how this can be achieved. Only the admin and mods can decide that fate based on our voting and our views. Time will tell.......

I quite agree with what you're saying, and if we were talking about Western dealers, then I would agree, a lesson could be learned and trust rebuilt over time, but we are not. We are talking about Chinese Dealers, who have different cultural values and considerably different business ethics, and what works to make one group repentant, the other group will simply see as a green light to continue as before, and I've found it frustrating that people don't seem to be taking that information on board.

Ok, so I will try it.. but just once..

Tee-Jay, I think you need to be very carefull with the hard line position you are taking here. I am not condoning false advertising and 'little white', black, or othewise lies. I am also not entirely comfortable with the establishment of a 'cartel' but I am equally not sure that cartels are unethical. Certainly, they are not consumer friendly, and pose a threat and should at least be fully transparent, but I am on the fence with respect to what to do about it.

My larger concern is in relation to a TJGladeRaider post on another thread. Historically this has been a place watch enthusisats come to to discuss watches, not dealers and we have all benefitted from the comradarie, and exchange of ideas. We are like a virtual community here and I think we enjoy each others virtual company. This is an issue that needs to be addressed and I give both Pug and Edge credit for having the guts to raise it. But it has to he addressed in a reasoned, careful way, and we need to be sensitive to the realtionships some of the members have with the dealers in question or we will tear this place apart.

On another thread, a few of our more respected members have already expressed dissatisfaction with the virtoral and rhetoric expressed here and as a result have indicated a reluctance to continue to post. We could begin to lose members.. valuable contributint members... if we are not sensitive to the relationships that have been established between these dealers and our community these many years. Do we need to police the place? For sure. But let's be reasonable with our actions.

To the dealers:

On the surface this thread would appear to be a push back on the establishment of "cartel", partnership, loose affiliation, whatever. And while this is important, for least several of the posters I believe that for many, the overriding issue ontinues to be a lack of closure over issues rasied in the "little white lies" thread. The level of noise around here would substatially drop, if for instance using terms like ETA 2836 etc to descibe an ETA CLONE movement constituted an error in judgement and stipulated it will not happen again. It seems to me that the people hurting the most over this are the same ones you worked so hard to foster relationships with.. it would be a shame to jeopardize those relationships when they are still clearly salvagable.

Given your comment to the dealers and the fact that you think that those relationships are salvagable, it is pretty clear that you are not prepared to accept the points I have made, so I will not waste any more of my time trying to make them. If you want to continue to deal with the Cartel, that is by all means your right, but given the information that has been posted, I would think anyone who still felt they were trustworthy is doing little more than lying to themselves, and deserving of whatever happens. I've given the information that I had to help others, if they choose to ignore that information, so be it.

@ CC and Teejay, it's good to see a disagreement about this, but in a way that is conducted with some decorum

Far too many times in this post I have seen things blown way out of proportion, when in actual fact we all want the same result, but through different approaches.

Myself, I believe that some form of punishment is necessary. What they did was to abuse their status, based on the evidence provided in this forum. To banish them forever, too harsh. To let them off and say don't do it again, too lenient. We have to strike a happy medium. A medium that will allow us to progress with a hobby, that for most part is bloody enjoyable, so there is no doubt in our mind, which causes us to question ourselves everytime we press that 'buy now' button.

I'd like to think I've been nothing but polite in my discussions here. My use of the term buddy [censored]er might come across as less than, but to be honest, I cannot think of any other phrase to appropriately describe that kind of behaviour.

I can see what you're saying, but as others have pointed out, a n00b scammer would be instantly banned, would they not? That being the case, why should the Cartel be shown any less stringent behaviour? After all, by being trusted members of the community, that makes their behaviour more distastefull, because it was directed to people who respecetd and trusted them.

It just seems to me that people want to 'give them a chance' because they were trusted members, which is admirable, but, that kind of leniency does not translate into Chinese Business Practice, and would simply be taken as weakness, and it is the apparent inability to grasp these cultural differences, and the implications on how things should proceed, that I have found a tad frustrating.

Update on the PO. I was out in direct sunlight today and guess what? The crystal has a tiny chip on the inside. It's very small and right over the 3 oclock marker so it is very hard to see. But you know how it goes, everytime I look down I'll see that and the band gap (which really isn't that bad). I still like it but can't make up my mind what to try next. A SMP or a Rolex sub nodate. Hmmm.

Oh yeah, I sized the band myself with no problem. Granted I can't do anything with a movement, but I have worked on and built many watches so I'm not a total novice. I used some small nails and my rubber lined vise. Nothing to it (just don't drop the band bushing).

Sorry to hear about the chip in the crystal. You could always get a new crystal installed though... As for SMP or Rolex Sub nodate. Hmmmm indeed Personally, I hate having to change the date at the end of the month, but, the SMP dial is more easily readable than a Rolex dial... What is more important feature to you? Ease of visibility of the dial, or the no date?

So what's the deal?

After combined total of more than 100 pages of discussion at 3 forum, this incident very much resembles precedents...

A problem comes up, we discuss for days, dealers ignore or lie more, time passes, people forget... life goes on.

Dealers get fatter and cockier.

What's the deal? Who knows. Depends what the admin on the various forums are prepared to do about the situation.

Uncle...you win

.......last word freak.....

I really do not mean to come over as a last word freak (although I know I can appear that way) it is just a case of I have found out and posted information about the Cartel which proved their dishonesty, I have pointed out the differences in cultural attitudes prevelent and how they cannot be dealt with in Western Terms, so I just find it frustrating when people appear to ignore that evidence and still believe that there is a more diplomatic sollution, despite being shown evidence to the contrary.

Peace out.

As I said, your condemnation of said dealers and their practices is noted and clear. You obviously believe they would be a continued detrement to this community.

What I believe, is not the point. The point is the facts that have been PROVEN (by both myself and others) that they would be a continued detriment to the community.

I don't understand, other than some pretty obvious narsisistic self aggrandizing, why you continue to challenge my desire to have a discussion (with others obviously) in another direction.

Self-aggrandizing narcissism? How is my pointing out facts self-aggrandizing or narcissistic? If you do not understand why I continue to, not challenge your desire, but point out the uselessness of it, then I have clearly wasted my time in pointing out the lies and manipulations that these dealers are guilty of, and I find that more than a tad frustrating. If you want dealers, I have GIVEN YOU dealers, both here and elsewhere, so why keep believing that some arrangement can be made with the Cartel for them to return here as trusted dealers? You've been given the facts, why are you refusing to accept them? That is my only reason for challenging what you have said, because to be honest, you sound like you are saying "I don't care if Andrew and Josh rip people off, they were popular guys, so I'm going to buy from them regardless of the proof being that they cannot be trusted." I don't mean to put words into your mouth, but that is what your message is coming across as. And so by extension, it comes across that if you think it's okay to keep dealing with them here despite the risk of getting ripped off, then it's okay for others to deal with them here and also possibly get ripped off.

If people want to keep dealing with the Cartel, then fine, that's their right. But. This forum exists to inform people about dealers who ARE trustworthy and warn them about ones who are not, not allow people to potentially get ripped off by dealers who WERE trustworthy, have now 'gone over to the Dark Side', but are still being 'given the chance' to make things right.

I'm not going to argue with you. Perhaps I should have used the word "manipulation" to describe what drives all advertising methodologies. Every time you sip on a soft drink or buy a box of detergent, your choice has been manipulated and influenced by inputs of which you are only partially aware.

Sorry, but I'd have to disagree with you there. Sure, my initial experience of a product might be influenced by advertising, but my continued favortism of one brand over another, is the result of my own experiences, as I said about in the thread about Rolex straps and clasps, in that I do not judge a product on the prestige of its name, but the quality of it as a product. Quick example. I prefer Pepsi to Coke. Always have. Although I will drink Coke if I have to, my preference is for Pepsi, because it is sweeter. However, Coke is the much more widely advertised product.

Sure, telling me its an ETA when it's not is a lie and that's exactly what's being called out here. How reprehensible a lie it is in the grand scheme of things is up for debate and discussion. Your vote is loud and clear. You're an absolutist. It either is or it isn't. Sinner or saint. You're the guy carrying the protest sign outside, pumping his fist, chanting your cause,....I'm more a grey zone negotiator trying to broker understanding inside the building between all parties involved.

On the contrary, I am by nature a negotiator myself (I'm a Libra, so it goes with the territory) I'm perfectly willing to listen to both sides, and am better than most at seeing someone else's point of view, even when it isn't my own, but, I have absolutely no tollerance for liars of any kind. As someone else pointed out, and has gone unnoticed, we are, for the most part, Occidentals looking at this from a Western Business point of view. The point I'm trying to make, is that the Cartel Dealers have a different set of Cultural Values to us in the west. Doesn't make them bad people, but it does mean that they can only be trusted to act according to those cultural values.

That is why I have kept trying to point out that 'partial restrictions' would be useless, as to people with Chinese cultural values, that is taken as weakness, and an opportunity to continue as before, and it frustrates me when people do not understand this, and, out of the goodness of their hearts, want to give them a second chance, oblivious to the fact that it will not be viewed as kindness or a second chance, but merely an opportunity to continue as usual, because the behaviour has been 'tollerated and excused'.

Several weeks ago, Pugwash posted a bold thread calling attention to "little lies" (notice the wording...little lies...is there such a thing in your book???) that were increasing in number and uncomfortably pushing the limits of advertising ethics. The response to the thread was enthusiastic, angry, and concerned. When no noticible change came of it, Edge posted an even more passionate call to arms to take some action or come to some consensus over what to do about this troubling trend. This won't go away, the dealers in question have to address it.

And the point I've tried to make, is the dealers will not address it. Andrew and Angus have both commented on this thread and both were proven to be lying to get themselves off the hook, so that was not addressing anything. As I said above, people need to realize that they are dealing with a very different set of cultural values to their own, where the truth is as fluid as water as long as it serves its purpose.

My question in the previous post was about do we do the replica buying community a service throwing out the baby with the bath water?

And as I answered you, of course it would be doing this community a service, because it would mean the dealers who have been proven to be liars and manipulators will not be around to continue to do so. As I said, there are OTHER dealers available besides the Cartel. There are other dealers HERE. There are other dealers on cqout. I can't vouch for their honesty as I have not yet used their services, but I would rather risk money on a new dealer than risk money on one who had been proven a liar. Like I said. $20 (appx) Rolex. Might not be a spot on accurate rep (I haven't seen one yet, so I can't say it is), but, for $20 it's certainly a good start for a conversion project, or as a watch that would only be worn when you wear the 'good shoes'. If you're concerned about the community, then maybe rather than trying to negotiate with people who will only lie again, it might be more productive to seek out new lines of supply.

What I was asking was for some sober, calm perspective based reflection on the entire picture here. Dispite your prosecutorial ire and bombast, this is not an either or. Got some news for you dude....all advertising involves subtrifuge in one shade or another. It isn't as simple as "They lied...they're out". That's not how this board operates and survives as a highly respected haven for replica buyers.

No, legitimate advertising does not involve subterfuge. That is called False Advertising, and I bet there are laws against it in America just as there are laws against it here in England. This is not a legal business, so no one (on either side) has any legal comback should someone come up short on a deal, so it relies on people being 100% honest in all matters of their dealings. Correct me if I'm wrong, this board operates and survives to prevent people from being scammed. Yes? No?

Would the behaviour of the Cartel be tollerated in some n00b Scam Dealer?

Of course it would not.

The fact it is being done by people who have become a part of the community makes it even worse, it makes them buddy [censored]ers, not just scammers.

Do you like being ripped off?

If not, why tollerate it?

To me, the bottom line here is where are we going to draw the line of acceptance. Despite 6 pages of primarily angry rants about the injustice of this all, the fact remain that the big 4 still offer a reliable, safe, inexpensive way on the whole, to purchase a wide variety of replica watches.

Dude, are you serious?? What is reliable about someone who lies to and manipulates customers/potential customers, and who willingly missrepresent their product hoping no one will find out? Did you not see the comments pointing out that this is a wholly Asian approach to business? This is not an aberration of behaviour, but Standard Operating Procedure. How many times do I have to say it before people start to listen?? Giving people like this a 'second chance', is only giving them a second chance to continue to lie and rip people off. It would not be tollerated in a n00b scam dealer, and likewise cannot be tollerated by these dealers, just because they are popular. The fact they are popular makes their behaviour even worse, because it makes them 'buddy [censored]ers'.

The accusations are serious, but they are still a far better choice than the majority of sites of dubious quality, pricing and security.

These 'accusations' are PROVEN FACTS. People, myself included, have posted private emails, found posts on other forums, pointed out the lies in the 'defensive' posts of Cartel Dealers in this very thread. At what point will it start sinking in that these dealers HAVE abused people's trust, and if given the chance to do so again, WOULD do so?? Sure, they are charging less than some of the Major scam sites, but they are still liars. It doesn't matter if you're being lied to a little or a lot, when at the end of the day, you are still being lied to! I'm pretty new to the community, so I have no personal bonds with these dealers. For those who have developped good relations with them, I'm sure it is scary to think "Where'm I going to get my watches from now?" The ARE other dealers available. There are other dealers available RIGHT HERE. There are other dealers on cqout. I've seen Rolexes on cqout for

Wow, so you guys wouldn't even spend $40 on it? I know it's not a good rep, but for $40 I'm happy...

For the experience you described, I certainly would. Most of the people I associate with wouldn't even know what a Panerai was (I hadn't even heard of them till I started browsing the forums) so they'd certainly never spot the tells. I am also something of a new 'convert' to Panerai, although I think my favorites are still Omega (won't know for sure till I actually get my hands on a Panerai) I'm planning on getting my father in law one for his birthday, so I'll be giving that a very careful examination when I get it, possibly even draping it over the wrist to see how it looks before wrapping it up That will decide if I actually then buy one for myself or not...

That's the important thing.

Sure it's crappy, but it'll give you a feel for Panerais. You'll get better ones and stop wearing this one, but it'll perversely always be appreciated, I bet.

I agree completely, as that is how I feel about my 2531.80 project watch. I know it's inaccurate, but there's something perversely loveable about it

Wow, that is a really unique project, I am very impressed by the work that's gone into it

I truly sympathise, nothing is more disappointing than ordering something and it not being what you wanted it to be. Even if you can't intercept the postman, I'm sure Josh will allow you to simply return the watch unworn (because obviously you wouldn't wear it without the 3 marker) so all you have to do, is insist on a refund. As I said yesterday, the option does exist of this watch:

http://www.cqout.com/item.asp?id=2493536

which may or may not have a flat dial, but, with the refunded money, you could order that watch and source a gen dial from ofrei.com if the dial on the watch is flat. It definitely has the 3 marker on the dial, so there should be no issue of the date window lining up. You never know, for all we can tell, the dial might be perfect, but the pictures make it impossible to tell. As I said before, if I had the spare money, I would have already ordered one of the watches as the price is good enough to make it worth the risk, but other commitments mean I can't do that for a while, and that bugs me.

On the subject of the New SMP and the hopes for one with the red lettering, from the pictures posted of it, I do not like how the letters in Omega are joined. It makes the watch (despite being genuined) look fake. (and I do mean fake, rather than replica, as replicas are at least of decent logo printing) so even if it was manufactured, I would not buy it, as even if the details were accurately replicated, it would 'look' like a 'fake', and probably get called out in the same way that people assume that anything with Rolex on the dial is fake, regardless of if it is genuine or not

Never disapointed, but, I do wish it was my Planet Ocean...

Teejay: based on all that is going on with our "trusted " dealers. I cannot see face clear enough to pull trigger and am reluctant to try out a new dealer at this point. Trying to get back off my U.PO as I type this to see how bad I got burned on this watch.....

That's cool, I can certainly understand that. I admit, I wish I could see the dial better myself, but, in general, the watch looks pretty good. If I had the cash, I'd buy one, even if it then meant getting a gen dial from ofrei, as the price is definitely right. I just wish I didn't have presents that I have to buy before I can treat myself to anything, or I'd've already ordered one. Two things about the watch that impress me, are the color and texture of the bezel insert, and, the positioning of the HEv. From the picture, it does appear to be offset above the 10 as it should be.

From my post this morning on RWI:

Not trying to belittle our ability to make change in any way, just trying to figure out how big a piece of the pie we are.

On Joshs site there is a hit counter at the very bottom on the right side. It reads as of right now 3,734,009 since July 05, thats about 4100 hits a day. And that just Josh. If this number is accurate and you add in all the other dealers with sites, and the dealers without sites, it makes us look like a smaller piece. Some one RWG mentioned that the replica industry is WAY bigger then any of us know,

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showto...3455&st=420

If this is true, the BIG 4 may not give a rats ass about these forums. It would also mean that the dealers are getting links from other places then just our forums.

Is there any way to tell just how big a ball this is?

@manu_72: You have a good point, but since I posted the original number, the hit count has gone up over 500 hits in less than 45min. If they average only 300 hits an hour it would mean around 7200 hits a day. Which would put them on pace for WAY over my intial number. By the way, B9 has a hit counter as well, theirs is at 9,372,539 since April 05. Thats almost 260,400 hits a month, and they have not been with US that long. And would also put them way ahead of josh.

And I was'nt saying our vote wouldnt count, Just that we may not be as big a deal to them as we think.

I know hit counters may not mean anything, Any body here know any solid numbers on the rep business?

All the more reason to for the admin to remove links to their sites and IP Ban them. They might not need our custom, we certainly don't need them. Not with the other dealers and other member resources available. As I've said several times, giving them a second chance due to past reputation, is just giving them a second chance to scam people.

Sorry for the delay, folks. This is a link to the watch in question:

http://www.cqout.com/item.asp?id=2493536

Now, please bear in mind that I have not seen this watch in person, nor dealt with the dealer before. If the photo is indeed accurate, then I think this is one very nice watch. I suspect that the dial might be smooth, with the wave logo printed on it, but, from the pictures, it is hard to be 100% sure. I am going purely on the photo and the assumption (hope) that the dealer is honest. From what I can see, the watch is an absolute steal for the price

Having tried on both sizes, I find both sizes look fine, although my fiance thought the 45 looked too big... I dread to think which generation my 42 is, as the Omega logo is printed ink, same as the lettering (which I actually really like, as it looks uniform) and the words 'Swiss Made' are actually above the minute markings rather than beneath them. Despite these inaccuracies, I absolutely love the watch, as it was a christmas present from my fiance, and I can't wait to get it back from having the crown repaired

That's fantastic, thanks for the info

So, a few weeks ago I ordered an Omega SMP expecting that the bezel would be misaligned and the bracelet would have screws. Both of those were true, but when I got the watch the 3 o'clock hour marker was missing and the bezel wouldn't pop off like everyone is explaining. Everytime I tried it would scratch and dent the bezel so I stopped trying. Yesterday the Helium valve fell off just during normal wear and I can't seem to source it. Cousins replied to my inquiry with a part that costs $70 and I'm not sure it's the right part. I have yet to hear from Josh.

So is this just bad luck? My whole day is ruined.....

What are you talking about? You wrote this post (as the begining of a thread) nearly a month ago!

Mar 3 2007, 07:37 AM' post=210602]

This is my first replica purchase, but certainly not my last. I'm hooked, and my friends are catching on too. I just don't know what's coming next....

I had to buy the quintessential classic blue SMP as my first rep. I knew going into it that there would be flaws coming from the new generation, so I'll start with those. Most noticable is the missing hour marker at 3 oclock. I even asked Josh about this prior to purchase and he referred me to his pictures online which show the marker. Bummer. The bezel was also misaligned, that was expected. The hour and minute hands also have some rough looking edges on close inspection.

Now, the good news is that I love the watch. I'm glad it showed up at all and quite quickly to boot. It's overall look, feel and weight are excellent. I had no problems adjusting the band, but I don't know if I'll attempt the bezel mod. I'd rather live with it than mess it up. If I hadn't spent hours scouring this site I wouldn't have noticed any of it, so I guess it doesn't matter. When I have the money and if I actually care I'll buy a real one. I'll post pics in a day or two.

Thanks Josh and the entire community for all the insight.

Given your comments then, how can you complain now about the things which at the time, you knew and accepted? I admit, the HEv falling out sucks, and it sucks that the bezel has been damaged, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the 'missing 3' marker or the screws instead of pins which you already knew about.

If you don't want the watch any more, then I'll gladly take it off your hands for you, as I want the dial for my project watch. If you are prepared to get the dial out and sell it to me, I'll happily point you in the direction of what appears to be (as far as I can tell) a much more accurate SMP for $92

I've never bought a Panerai before, never soon one in person or worn one, and really don't know very much about them at all as a brand, other than the fact I like how they look. I am planning on buying a Panerai Marina H Series as a birthday present for my father in law later this year, and have seen one that is very nice. My questions, are to do with the movement and it's powersource. It does not appear to be an automatic, so I can only conclude it is a hand-winding watch, so my questions, are:

1. How many turns of the crown would it need for a 'full charge'

2. How long would a 'full charge' last for?

3. When winding, would it be obvious when to stop winding the watch, or would it be possible to over-wind it?

I ask these questions as, not only would I like to get one for myself, but my father in law is not really a 'watch guy', and normally wears quartz, so would be unfamiliar with mechanical movement.

Thanks in advance

I know them all, no one says competitors cannot be friends, but this only limits to "just to say hi", I just only say hi to them when I see them. I declear I have NOTHING to do with them with business (you may say I am another cartel but surely not one of them). In the earlier post that Tim had quoted a private converstation between us, I ship out my watches by the same courier as Josh uses, I take my watches to the courier to ship. The courier is my friend, sometimes I helped him to pack the watches and bring the watches from the market to his office, that's it!! I NEVR drop ship for Josh and Andrew. If I don't explain, many of you may think I was the drop shipper for Josh and Andrew but I AM NOT!! I say again I don't have any business relaationship with them.

Angus, we've never done business, and you've never caught my attention as a dealer, compared to Andrew and Josh, so there is absolutely no personal motives in what I say at all. You are saying that you never drop ship for Andrew or Josh. In the message you posted to Tim, you said that you did. Either you were lying then, or you are lying now. Either way, you are lying, and if you can lie about that, there is a lot you could also be lying about. I do not do business with liars.

The SteelFish is made by the HBB maker, the maker only supplies to 4 of us and we have to sell at similar prices.

Actually the maker will sell to somebody else and other dealers may happen to have one or two from other sources.

Your have contradicted yourself. Either they only deal with you, or they will sell to other dealers, that does not bother me. But, for you to contradict yourself simply shows you to be a liar.

You do it again here:

Sorry, the watch maker only supplies to 4 of us (online sellers),

and the watch maker also sells to other people

Don't use poor English as an excuse to hide behind, you have not only contradicted yourself, but done so twice. The comments you have posted here, with the comment Tim posted, (which he was totally right to do, by the way, because it let us all know what is going on) rather than proving your innocence, has actually proved that you, like Andrew and Joshua, are a liar.