TeeJay

I am sure the dealers can handle any feedback or discussion these message boards can contain. Business is business. We all know this is rep world and alot of things that are mentioned here come from one's own view and paradigm.

i am new to reps, about 9 months and I can tell you from being around that nothing compares to the customer service that I have recieved so far with Joshua. Granted I do not have one of these B&R watches.

It is curious to know and learn more about the pressures that the dealers are faced with at the level in the supply chain that they represent. Who benefits in this rep game. Well from my end the buyer does. I got the watch I wanted and if something is wrong with it I believe my dealer will correct the problem straightway. If not I lost several hundred bucks and i find a new dealer.

"Cartel" - this is business. Make it while you can and for as long as you can. You can only satisfy 90% of clients anyway. Hey Josh and Andrew keep it up. I am going to need more watches and I think you are fair and balanced.

I think folks should cool off and let it ride a while before lynching anyone.

With the greatest of respect, I couldn't care less about the pressures the dealers face. That is the nature of their business. They knew that when they decided to enter that business. You don't join the armed forces or the police and then complain when you get shot at. You don't become a paramedic and complain when crackheads throw up over you. You don't work in a video store and complain you're on your feet all day. Every job has it's risks and down-sides, and people enter into those jobs fully aware of those things. Risks are not justification for misrepresenting product. Risks are not justification for telling someone a watch will be serviced, and sending it to them un-touched. So you might have had good service from Joshua, so have many people. Would you be saying the same thing if you had bought one of the B&R watches? I seriously doubt it.

If they had a store in a mall and were selling cheap junk and advertising it as "top of the line Swiss", do you think they would be allowed to stay in that mall? No [censored]ing way! They would likely be in jail

If free enterprise means using your muscle to have your competition unfairly removed, having their paypals revoked, and attempting to limit their competitors access to product, you are 100% correct. Sounds more like mafia to me.

Triad would be more precice, but spot on about the business methods.

Of course I am aware they teamed up and figure it was a way to make more money. What is wrong with that? Long gone are the days where a few collectors would get watches for their buddies and make a couple of bucks. This is a real business. A real lucrative business and they have every right to take whatever strategy they see fit to make as much money as they possibly can. This whole fiasco reminds me of a small town complaining about super Wal-mart moving in and putting the mom and pops out of business. Wah, wah, wah. Business in not personal, only business. They merged, just like AT &T and Bellsouth. So what? They lied about some products and got caught. If they want to retain customers they won't do it anymore. Everyone on the forum knows what has been going on. People have a choice of who to buy from. They are not the only game in town. I have had two transactions with Trusty and none with josh. I may or may not deal with either in the future. Everyone knows about the lies, and yet the dealers still get plenty of business. Caveat Emptor.

They will not exploit me and I am not ignorant. If I choose to buy something that's my choice. I rarely buy anything from andrew and never from Josh. It just amazes me how when someone makes a good business decision that makes them more profit the consumer feels like they are getting screwed. This is a free enterprise and people are free to make their own decisions. As long as they keep the descriptions somewhat acurate there is no problem in my book. There are plenty of other dealers to buy watches from. This little hobby of ours is not what makes the world go round. We have spent way to much bandwith on this subject as I believe arguing it is futile.

To address the boldened points. What guarantee is there that they will keep the descriptions accurate? As I said above, Andrew has already 'back-slid' in his habits, even if he does buck his ideas up, what is to stop him back-sliding again in the future? Just because you are happy to run the risk of getting scammed by them, don't assume anyone else is. I'd never bought anything from either dealer due to plain not having the spare cash as I have a lot of birthday's coming up, and none of those people are watch-fiends (would have at least given me the opportunity to 'test the waters') but seeing how the Cartel have and are operating, I will never spend a cent on their products, not even straps, because I do not do business with people I cannot trust.

thanks edge. i think we should have more members weighing in on potential solutions to this situation. surely we can collectively come up with a reasonable solution.

I think the most reasonable solution is to remove all links to the Cartel's sites, and IP Ban the dealers. All this "give them a chance to make things right" is giving them a sign that people still want/need to do business with them, so are prepared to forgive and forget. Sorry, but that is not the way to deal with people like this. As has been pointed out, we are Occidentals looking at this from a Western perspective on business, what we need to do, is deal with it as Asians would. There has been, at the risk of sounded melodramatic, dishonor. It is possible to make restitutions to those wronged to restore honor (see Yakuza codes) It is also possible to simply sever all business ties. If we as a community allow them to continue to post to the boards and deal through the forum, they will take that as a sign of weakness, and in time, when things have died down, standards will start to slip again.

It may be time to take a breather.

Edge, for whom I have had a lot of respect in the past, seems intent on a stirring up a lynch mob. All because of one ... can we, for the moment, call it an error? Just to give us time for reflection?

Can any of you remember what the market was like before Joshua appeared? I certainly recognise several people from the old days in this thread.

If the so-called "cartel" have a fault, it is that they have held prices down... and because of this have influenced other dealers to follow their lead.

Or would you prefer to pay Honpo's prices?

Service? Before Joshua appeared it just did not exist. But since Joshua started making good the inevitable DOA movements, dropped markers, loose hands, etc, et al.... look what happened. The other dealers followed suit.

When Andrew first appeared, he made a lot of mistakes. Not least of which was misrepresenting the movements inside his watches. He was naiive enough to put into print stuff that his dealer had told him. There was quite a bit of fuss over this... but no lynch-mob. Andrew set about putting his house in order and worked hard to overcome those early difficulties.

But now Edge wants to see Andrew, Joshua, King and Angus driven out of business... over one error, in one watch?

It seems a little disproportionate.

I'm not saying that nothing should be done. But I think that the people involved should be given the chance to put their case - and if necessary, put their respective house in order - before we let the lynch-mob loose.

In my opinion, Andrew was ill-advised to enter this thread when he did - and I certainly don't blame the others for not wishing to join in until the emotion and the rhetoric die down.

I have to decare an interest. I have been dealing with Joshua since he started his business. I was one of his first customers. I have bought several watches from him since. In every case I have been delighted with every aspect of the transactions.

I have a B&R. From Joshua. I had one of the first... perhaps the very first, of the PVD models. No - I haven't a clue what movement it has inside. Yes - it keeps perfect time... to COSC standard. Am I about to open it up to see if I have been "ripped-off"?

Of course not.

Would I deal with Joshua again?

Certainly - without hesitation.

To respond to the boldened point. Andrew used to make mistakes, that in itself is understandable, no one in any business hits the ground running and 100% perfect from day one. However, what the events mentioned in this thread have proven, is that Andrew either has, or certainly is, backsliding towards his old habits. As has been mentioned by someone else, this is a totally Asian approach to business, and the only way to actually get the job done as requested, is to 'stand there and watch them do it'. That is why, as I said above, anything less than a total ban could be taken as a sign of weakness and an invitation for further abuses of trust in the future.

I am not saying that they should be removed from the boards and never to be spoken of again, as, if someone was to come to the forums and still wanted to do business with them, then they should be allowed to do so, ie given all the facts and history, given a url via PM, and basically told to buy at their own risk, as giving them a partial allowance, where abuses can still occur, and newcomers might not realize that abuses of trust took place.

Just my .2c...

Well I think the time for procrastination and beating around the bush is done, we have had a lot of evidence against them and it's now time to act, not draw this out long enough that we lose interest and forget about it.

We should stop tooing and froing and come to a resolution, my suggestion is this:

RWG, RWI and TRC suspend their dealing privilidges on the boards for a set period of time, and make their section invisible for that time

RWI removes them from the 5 star dealers list

RWG, RWI and TRC stop all linking to their sites

All 3 boards enforce new guidelines as to the outline of a sales listing;

There must be detailed pictures of the front, back, sides, bracelet/strap and MOVEMENT

There must be a detailed and ACCURATE description of the watch for sale (like TTK uses)

We as a membership boycott them until they can PROVE to us that they have mended their ways

I would also suggest that as Andrew and Josh, have ALL the same watches at ALL the same prices, and ALL the same pictures, they become ONE dealing entity, as apposed to the 2 they are at the moment. Therefore calling for the removal of one of the sites, as it would be redundant.

When reinstated the 4 dealers should be watched closely for any indiscretions, and also MUST post all new watches on the forum, NOT JUST LINKING to a web page, the watch must be listed in the correct format or you will be punished.

Any further counts of misrepresentation/LYING should result in an outright ban and removal.

These are my thoughts, and though quite comprehensive are not difficult to follow and/or impliment.

Now is the time for action, strike while the iron is hot, and let's not waste time, the more time we waste the less momentum this will have and we will just end up forgetting about it and moving on.

Edge

I agree entirely with this, but, I would not give them the benefit of the doubt to be reinstated. People have been lied to, manipulated, and their trust abused. If they are the kind of people who will do it once, I fear they are the kind of people who may do the same in the future, particularly if there ever comes for a request for suppliers to create another unusual watch (as with the B&R Scenario)

Profit isn't a dirty word....but jacking your custoemrs money by lying to them is a dirty practice....!

@bricky.........

Of course they don't......they think it's just a storm in a teacup...and that if they keep their heads down....none of the [censored] will hit them....I've seen Josh scanning the forum a number of times today....( duh....you'd think he'd have the common sense to log in as 'invisible'.....)..!

BTW...you know that the Chinese eat everything but the table....!

If the posts over at RWG are anything to go by, it is a storm in a teacup, as when I did what I was the right thing about informing the people there what had been discovered, they were very much "Josh has always been fine with me, so I'll continue buying from him..."

It's crazy of these people to think that this won't eventually affect them. Well, I've done all I can do by making them aware of the situation, afterall, that's what these forums are for.

One thing damit I wish we could stop doing is using Joshua, Andrew, and Angus when we are dealing with Chen, Lin, and Huang. When the hell did that ever start????? What, the stupid westerners feel more comfortable when dealing with Anglicanized names?

/Tim

In most cases, yes. I can't even pronounce the name of my dealer, but I still trust them. It's like companies that outsource call centers to India, and the employees all use Anglicanized names...

Which was my thought process when I posted the message. I know that the ethics of posting a private message in a public forum is dicey, and at a minimum usually shows very bad taste. But in this case, it felt more like a smoking gun to me and I had a responsibility for disclosure.

Since that Angus has sent me a message with a further explanation and now I honestly don't know what to believe.

/Tim

If the information is different to what you first posted, then it stands to reason that Angus lied in one of the messages. Doesn't matter which one, the fact is, either way, you were lied to, either as an outright lie, or an attempt of manipulation. Not the kind of conduct supposedly trustworthy people engage in...

Just like an authorised service centre will have access to parts, it doesn't mean they will sell them, I see no fault in Josh's not selling parts.

Then why sell straps and other accessories?

[Edit to add]

My point was not to find fault with Joshua not selling spares as a regular occurence, but to point out an example of how the Cartel tell people what they want them to think, knowing that their reputations (at the time) would mean people would take them at their word and stop looking for the item they were looking for.

Every dealer who 'misrepresents' his items has to receive a warning from a mod/ admin as it is their duty to protect the newbies from scams. A mistake can easily be made... also by a dealer so we can do it like the U.S. system:" 3 strikes YOU'RE OUT!

As I said before:

Was this website not created to identify and name scammers (of whatever variety) so people would not get ripped off? I am as shocked as anyone else that Andrew and Joshua would behave in this manner, but the point is, when people have been lied to and manipulated thusly, why do those responsible even deserve a second chance? All that does is give them a second chance to rip people off. Turning the other cheek doesn't solve anything, it just gets you slapped harder.

But that isn't true because I received quotations of the lowest price on this watch with both the Asian 7750 movement and the Swiss 7750 movement from one of the "approved" dealers on this thread outside the accused gang of four in the cartel, and the prices were more or less the same as Joshua's. There were also other factors that made Joshua's offerings more attractive, such as the simplicity of clicking on a credit card rather than getting and posting an international money order.

That email, is little more than propoganda on the part of the Cartel. They know that (untill yesterday) they had spotless reputations, and people believed anything they were told by them. If they tell someone that something isn't available (as a way of stopping someone looking further) then someone is likely to believe them. I emailed Joshua a while back about the possibility of purchassing one of the new SMP dials which are sans 3 marker, only to be told flat that the dials were not available.

Hi,

i am sorry sir. I do not sell spares.

thanks

joshua

At the time, I accepted that. But thinking about it, it is a load of BS. How many times has someone said they got a watch with a dodgy dial, only to then be shipped a new dial to swap over? If they can do it for X watch, they can do it for Y watch. The difference in circumstances, is that I was not seeking a replacement for a faulty item I had purchassed from them, so they have nothing to gain in letting me have a dial. The pittance they could charge for the dial would be nothing compared to what I would pay if I decided to just buy the whole watch... Sure, Joshua might not sell spares as a part of his website, but he could sure as hell lay his hands on one of the dials if he wanted to, or failing that, give the name of a contact who could... Of course, the price of a replacement dial, is simply not worth it, so I got a very swift and polite rejection.

I understood Edge's assertion without reading it twice. I would not say everyone else's issues were exactly the same. I was only addressing the Cartel assertion/suspicion for which at the time there was no real evidence in this thread. More evidence has come forth since then, both here and in other forums. Just because I didn't address the Lies issue does not mean that I did not understand what was being put forth. The white lies ( now black lies? ) issue has been known for some time..at least since Pugwash's thread. As I see it, the only effective way to deal with any of these issues is to have a place( scammed?) in this forum where these issues are posted for fair warning to all members. As to whether King is a part of this, I still do not know...only Andrew's statement( do you believe it...yet you think he has lied about other things?); yet, look at Angus's statement( another lie?) about Josh and Andrew...seems that they will cut each other's throat to get business. Seems to me you cannot believe anything anyone says in the Replica world.

Olivia, I already posted an email I received from another member who also pointed out that King was part of the Cartel. I am not naming names as it was a private transaction, but they had absolutely no reason to lie, or to mention it if it was not true. I believe Andrews comments about King being part of the Cartel for two reasons 1) he has no reason to lie about it. 2) I have heard independant of anyone who posted in this thread that King is part of the Cartel.

Why are people so keen to defend people that have lied to and manipulated others? Why are people suggesting they be 'given time' to make ammendments? This isn't Time Out for bad behaviour, and it does not take a month to ammend a website. Even if the websites were ammended, what is to stop the Cartel continuing to give people watches with movements in that are not as advertized? or what is to stop them buying up all the stock of the good watches so the smaller dealers can't get a look in? Was this website not created to identify and name scammers (of whatever variety) so people would not get ripped off? I am as shocked as anyone else that Andrew and Joshua would behave in this manner, but the point is, when people have been lied to and manipulated thusly, why do those responsible even deserve a second chance? All that does is give them a second chance to rip people off. Turning the other cheek doesn't solve anything, it just gets you slapped harder.

At the risk of splitting what is at the moment a united front, I still say that the lies are related to price. Price might not be the reason we object to being lied to, but if you read Andrew's justification for lying about the not-even-close-to-ETA2892 movement in the B&R is that if we'd actually wanted what they were claiming the watch had then they would had to increase the price.

In other words if we wanted to live our fantasy, get a B&R and believe that the watch was good we could pay 'X', whereas if we wanted them to go to the 'great risk and trouble' to actually put in it what they claimed was already there the price would have been 'X+a lot more'.

Price is a subjective thing and ultimately driven by market forces so we can't use price alone as a reason to be aggrieved. It is still though at the heart of the issue if the lies are told in order to give truth to the lie about the price too.

To summarise - price might not be our justification for being aggrieved, but it is most definitely the reason they have been motivated to lie, and an arrest of the cash flowing to them will be the only thing that will stop the lies.

I completely agree with you there, I was just saying, as Olivia seemed to not understand what people's issues were, that Edge's (and everyone else's) issues was not primarily about price increases, but the dishonest and manipulative behaviour on the part of the Cartel (which would eventually lead to price rises) and that the best way to prevent those rises occuring, was to act against their dishonest and manipulative behaviour.

That is why I went ballistic with him yesterday. He was suggesting he was doing us a favour by lying to us therefor saving us money. Talk about inverted thinking - that verges on delusional.

This is the thing though. He/they were doing us a favor by getting the B&R made, where they went wrong was by lying about the movement that was put inside it. This isn't an expression I'd heard before visiting forums, but this is a classic case of 'buddy [censored]ing'... Doing someone a favor, but also ripping them off at the same time.

Why would they do that if it is not to allow them to protect or increase their mark-up?! No dealer is operating a charity. Of course price is the issue, if not for us then at least for them.

Read it and weep....

Stop sticking your head in the sand or pretending that talking money is demeaning.

Price becomes an issue for everyone when restriction of trade eventually allows the cartel to charge BestSwiss prices plus, which is the natural consequence of what is going on. Do you think once the competition is gone they'll say to themselves 'that price is high enough, I think I'll leave it at that....'?!

Why all of a sudden does it seem distasteful to suggest we are all looking for the best deal here?! There is no status in paying over the odds - only deserved ridicule...

Oh I quite agree with what you're saying about how it will eventually allow the Cartel to charge what they want, and I find that disturbing as well, however, what I find more disturbing, and a more pressing issue, is that people have been lied to about product. I believe that is what Edge is refering to by saying 'price is not the issue'. At the moment, price is not the issue. If the Cartel are allowed to continue, then prices could become an issue, but, by showing these people the door, they are not going to be in a position to influence the changes enough to affect the price. By dealing with the issue that they have lied to and manipulated people (as the emails clearly showed), that completely avoids the potential issue of them becoming able to influence prices, so yes, while price is ultimately a concern, it is by no means the most pressing one, and I suspect that is what Edge and others are pointing out. I was simply illustrating the posts to Olivia, which had been previously posted at Pug's request, yet Olivia was still apparently oblivious to the fact that King is part of the Cartel.

After reading the thread in the link above, it does appear (from Andrew)that Andrew and Josh are colluding on price and perhaps even communicating regarding member purchases...at least those that price check between the two. Don' know about King .

Nothing really wrong with that as far as I can tell. That is the way they choose to run their business, and we as buyers can take action accordingly. But we probably would not know about it without this Forum. Sometimes you can try to be too smart and it backfires on you.

Edit: I only buy from River and Silix.

Olivia, King is part of the Cartel. Andrew said so himself a month ago:

http://www.replica-watch.info/forum/viewto...p=138896#138896

The last dealer of the four is KING. =)

Andrew

I posted this yesterday so you could read it. Did you also miss this?

http://www.replica-watch.info/forum/viewto...p=138054#138054

Well.. this Breitling SuperOcean is worth every single cent of your USD308. Where can you find a watch that is waterproofed to 1000m as claimed by Maker??

For your information, this price will always REMAIN at USD308. Swiss ETA 2824-2 movement is getting real scarce and even the Maker has to buy them in lots to keep. If you dont have connections with some Makers, you cannot even get a Swiss ETA 2836 cheaply. Like Josh say...there are ONLY 4 dealers offering this and they are all the same specs. Every dealer has a different way of calling it. I call my wife... DEAR.... Joshua call his wife..Darling...and the others.. I dont know. LOL...

Dont be a pug... =P

Get the Asia ETA 2813 version if you want to save some money..anyway it's 21J (28,800bph)

Cheers

Andrew

As has been said a dozen times price is not the issue. People are [censored] off at having been lied to about product, and are concerned that the Cartel are trying to push out smaller dealers by buying up all the stock of the really good reps. That is what people are concerned about. Not price.

Yes, it was.

Can you paste the posts they said they were blocking other dealers and fixing the prices so Olivia can see we're not just making this stuff up?

Consider it done, Amigo.

http://www.replica-watch.info/forum/viewto...p=138054#138054

Well.. this Breitling SuperOcean is worth every single cent of your USD308. Where can you find a watch that is waterproofed to 1000m as claimed by Maker??

For your information, this price will always REMAIN at USD308. Swiss ETA 2824-2 movement is getting real scarce and even the Maker has to buy them in lots to keep. If you dont have connections with some Makers, you cannot even get a Swiss ETA 2836 cheaply. Like Josh say...there are ONLY 4 dealers offering this and they are all the same specs. Every dealer has a different way of calling it. I call my wife... DEAR.... Joshua call his wife..Darling...and the others.. I dont know. LOL...

Dont be a pug... =P

Get the Asia ETA 2813 version if you want to save some money..anyway it's 21J (28,800bph)

Cheers

Andrew

http://www.replica-watch.info/forum/viewto...p=138896#138896

The last dealer of the four is KING. =)

Andrew

First post was dated Feb 7 07, Post two dated Feb 8 07.

So what if they have the same suppliers. What does anyone conclude from that? Many dealers use a given supplier for particular models. Not news. And everyone should ask themselves....who benefits from these accusations?

12 hours ago, I would have agreed with you and said "so what if they have the same suppliers", but the thing that struck me, was that my contact specifically used the word 'Cartel'. When they made the comment, it meant nothing to me. Having read this thread, it takes on a whole new meaning, and it sounds like this cartel is trying to play people for chumps, and is guilty of the very behaviour this forum exists to prevent.

So, there is a cartel including andrew, josh, angus, and king. And they are trying to cut out the smaller dealers...fix prices, etc. Almost everyone seems to believe it. After reading through all of the posts in this thread I find NO credible evidence for such a claim. ( Don't consider the email evidence....in its currrent form.)Evidence may exist, but you won't find it in this thread,so far.

Now the B&R issue is another problem and evidence certainly exists for that.

I am not going to name names, but this is from an email I received last week from a member over a private sale. I didn't think anything about it at the time, as I had heard that Andrew and Joshua had the same suppliers, but, having seen the posts in this thread, feel it is 'evidence'.

it was the same strap as Joshua - from King, if you didnt know, there is some kind of cartel between Joshua, Andrew and King, and they all have the same stock/suppliers.

Once more, I am not naming names, but this was the information I received in a capacity wholly unrelated to this topic.

I think you forgot to add "and not that concerned about it". [censored], the [censored]er looks great! (language you guys understand).

http://watchwindersworld.com/omse10022-aqu...892-p-1434.html

I can't help myself as I am ingnorant. the site advertises the watch movement as 2892-2 which my understanding is an asian copy of ETA. I have been told the actual movement is Seagul. I have also heard the Seagul movement is pretty good. Crystal has said Ziggy feels it is a piece of crap. The point is this:

I bought a rep to LOOK like the gen. If I wanted a good watch for the money I would but a casio quartz. The reason i have no problem here is because they had to use the Seagul (if that is what it is) with silver movement to look like gen becuase it has display caseback and gen is silver (vs. ETA which is gold). Now, Josh should have said what the movement was vs ETA 2892-2, I agree, but would not have influenced buying decision. Sorry to [censored] you guys off. Infact, the reason I did not get SMP GMT is because the ETA in that display caseback is gold and gen is silver. dead giveaway and useless to me.

I think we ask alot from these dealers in terms of getting the watches to be exactly like gen and we have to balance quality for asthetics.

Bottom line is the piece cost 270 bucks. To me that's an investment in a fun hobbie to a watch that looks great.

I will let everyone know when it fails

That's as maybe, but, if someone advertises something as being X rather than Y, they should sell the customer X rather than Y, not sell them Z and hope no one finds out, or isn't prepared to go through the rigmarole of returns/replacement and make do with what they've got. It's a case of being honest and ethical, not mis-representing a product or selling it at a ludicrous price, which is precicely the reason this forum was created. To advise and protect. Sure, dealing in reps is illegal, but there is still such a thing as 'honor among thieves', especially when people are dealing in an honest manner, and expect to be dealt with in an honest manner.

Just my .2c

TeeJay, try to hunt down a gen before prices get more out of hand than they alreasy are. if you're interested in the later sapphire models, these are priced quite a bit lower than the acrylic models. I've seen complete & minty examples on TZ for between $1K-1.2K but they don't show up too often. The big plus here is that the gen would always be worth what you paid.

An alternative would be to start with a watchmaster Tudor Sub (based on the MBW 1680 case) and go from there. His dials are quite good as are the case backs. The two watchmasters that I have seen have the military dials and axe hands but not sure if that is what you're after.

If you recall, Ubi built one terrific no-date Tudor sub about a year ago. You might check his post and see all was involved. He used an OEM dial which fit nicely in the MBW case. Not sure if an OEM Tudor dial would fit a rep 16610 case.

Thanks for the advice The model I was thinking of was military issue with square incices and the 'snowflake' hands. I'm juggling several options in my mind about what to do with my Submariner, like Great White, tudor or even a 1953 era 6200. As much as I love it, I don't like the cyclops, and I hate having to change the date. Also, I have to accept that at 28 and not exactly 'corporate smart', I don't generally look like the kind of guy who could afford a genuine Submariner, but figured something a bit more 'vintage' on a NATO strap might be more plausable, so I figured I'd swap out the dial, crystal and bezel, and just keep them in storage, that way, in a few years, if I wanted, I could always restore the watch to it's original state. I did consider the idea of trading it for a vintage sub, but, this was my first high-end watch, so sentimental value means I'd rather modify it rather than completely get rid of it.

This one?

MY EYES!!!

Anyone wearing that watch better be into some Big Pimpin'

I just saw the movie this weekend. Not the best Bond I have seen (and I have seen all of them). A shame he wrecked the Aston Martin within 5 seconds of driving it. How did the girl know what was wrong with the defibrillator? How did she even know it was a defribillator? IMO, the last hand of poker could have been played out a little more dramatically.

My final thought on this movie was that I feel it should have been set in the 1950's when it was written since it is a prequal to the other Bond movies. This movie was also lacking a super villain. Nobody to really hate in the movie. I kind of felt sorry for the guy that lost all his clients money and the poker game. There weren't even any great gadgets in this one. Maybe technology has cought up with Bond and his toys don't impress me anymore. He could have fired at least one missle from the Aston Martin.

Funnily, that was what I enjoyed about the film. It was more like the original novels (which I prefer over the movies) so I thought it was great

I guess that's why no more people put together a Tudor Sub rep. If you bought a rep. Sub, original Tudor dial and upgrades you'd be almost as much as the real thing.

You know, several years back I bought an early 60s Rolex Oyster Perpetual that confused alot of people. It had a dark brown dial that faded to gold towards the center. Some people thought it may have just faded over time, some thought it was made that way but had never seen a dial like it. But the whole time I had it, people kept telling me that I could get the dial refinished in any color I wanted. And it was fairly cheap to do. If that can be done, why can't somebody (with the ability) just disassemble a rep and refinish the dial. I've seen the opposite enough on eBay (you know, Tudors with refinished dials to look like a rollie).

In all fairness, there's quite a difference between refinishing a dial in a different color, and re-printing all the markings and text... It's not going to be cheap, and the results may not be so great. I agree, the parts for the tudors aren't cheap, but, that's the price you pay (no pun intended) for an obscure item...

I'm after one of these myself. From what I gather, it's a case of DIY Assembly. I was directed to this site as a source for parts:

http://www.classicwatchparts.com/catpart/c...7mggtkf0d6jq4h3

I agree that many people do not get the lip properly put away and that is a problem. That one is easily solved by looking it over as you try to shut it. You'll see how it needs to be shut when you see that lip ontop of the bar it usually rests under. The problem is further down the clasp with the mechanism used to snap the clasp shut and keep it closed. This works on most of the divers clasp through a pinch in the metal--or in some other versions a long nub molded in the metal.

The issues is that first some of these nubs or pinches are not formed very well out of the box. The second issue is that as you use the clasp, this nub will wear down and get to the point where there isn't enough of it left to securely hold against the slot in the opposite tine of the clasp. Then you are forced to get a punch and hammer out to increast the size of the nub; or sometimes it works if you take the entire clasp apart and use a screwdriver to slightly expand the part of the clasp closest to the bracelet. And that would be a temporary solution at best.

A good view of the mentioned "lip" is in this picture:

A good view of the nub and slot is on the third picture of this series:

This is a genuine bracelet so you can see that the original design is not much better. Instead of nubs, Omega should have put small spring loaded ball bearings in this area to ensure a durable clasp is maintained after repeated use.

So easiest solution is just not to use the damn thing. Problem averted.

/Tim

I knew I'd seen those pics somewhere before, but couldn't remember where... Thanks for posting them, hopefully it will clarify the operation of the clasps