TeeJay

I think that's a pretty good analogy for many of the watches. I came to reps admiring a 25k Lange, the rep I got wasn't in the same game let alone the same league - but it was the closest thing to that watch.

And lots of members are into both reps and gens. If anything, over time, I think people that are serious in the hobby aspect tend to gravitate back towards gens - the scene gives people a value in watches they didn't previously have. I certainly value good watches more highly than I used to as a result of reps, and am more inclined to buy a good gen than previously, odd as it may sound.

Not meaning to be argumentative, but I have found as a result of reps (and other watch costs) I am less likely to buy a gen watch now than I was say a year ago when I got my Sub. I could have bought a genuine one, but I bought a rep because it was the cheaper option. The remainder of the cash went towards a vacation in Portmeirion and the associated holiday expences

I dont accept this aspect

"The report said firms were under threat from non-genuine sales in the UK through lost revenue"

as belive me if I had the spare cash for genuines I would be buying them.

I look on our hobby as the same as if you hung a reproduction Van Gogh Sunflowers on your wall at home. Lovely picture I'm sure, but this week the budget won't run to an original! People who buy reps are not (generally) in the market for the originals that they are based on. Just my two-penn'oth.

I don't agree with that aspect either, but from the opposing point of view. Even if I had millions in the bank, I still wouldn't buy genuine watches, because I don't think their brand name justifies the price tag.

I'd say this part of the article sums it up best:

But the Counterfeiting Luxury study, from law firm Davenport Lyons, found 80% of UK shoppers would be deterred if their purchases aided terrorism.

However, some trade bodies working to counter intellectual property crime have told the BBC that they see no connection with terrorism.

'Terrorism' is the modern 'Communism' which America was so scared of back in the early 20th. Anything bad, blame it on the Communisisisisiists!!!!1 No one ever stopped to think that there's nothing actually wrong with communism, other than the fact it doesn't really work in practice...

I'd be interested to know how money from Chinese produced replica products, would support Islamic terrorism...

Something I think the article does not take into account, is that people are 'softened up' to Full Out Replica goods, by cheap generic items, for which we have to thank America and the Wal-Mar Mentality... Something of a Global Irony there

I'm sure I've said before (I certainly have privately) about a sweater I bought for

La Dolce Vita, indeed, rolli. My parents worked hard for me, and soon, it will be my turn for them.

But on a more serious note, I am reminded that not everything is Dom Perignon, canap

Well, I will start then. I never think of it as a new watch. Perhaps a better version of the original rep. There are a number of watches where if you do a fair amount of modding you have significantly enhanced it. Any watch that I think is well built and I like the design gets a movement transplant if the original movement is not Swiss and it is possible to find a Swiss replacement. It is not a new watch but then IMHO I now have a watch which should last for years.

Would you still consider it a new watch, even if you had replaced every major part? (Say over an extended period of time)

Wow, I can't believe there's been so much discussion on this issue

What with the amount of people who modify their watches, I'd've expected opinions from all directions... Oh well

I think Timex make something similar with less complications to the dial, and considereably cheaper

A bit of a Ship of Theseus debate really, I just wondered at what point someone considered a modified watch to be a different watch, or, if they always considered it to be the same watch, even after most (if not all) the original parts were replaced...

Just curious really

Depends on the price, you can pick up an asian sub on cqout for

Personally, I've always had my best results from Asian movements rather than Swiss.

My 2220.80 SMP, for example, Asian movement, completely untouched out of the box (other than re-alligning the bezel insert, but that has no impact on the timing) and it runs at +4 secs a day. That's within COSC standard, so why pay the extra for a Swiss movement when an Asian can be just as accurate...

So true, it's a shame because even though i was getting [censored], i have many other positive things going on in my life that i just let the Finepics saga drag on because ultimately, it's just a watch part, right?...but just seeing this post the other day really irritated me because...i can tell how many people Mark has screwed, and that's what irritated me to write that post that EVERYONE is thinking but doesn't want to say in the hopes that Mark will resurface and make things right. He may show up like magic after my statement and suddenly appear after being MIA, and I wouldn't expect him to get me back what he should even though that's the right thing...but there are enough people that have been burned and i'm over Mark aka Finepics as any subject worth another minute of my time. Keep my $90 bucks, I'm at peace about it but what about everyone else?

Call a spade a spade, a good fella a good fella, and a POS a POS. Enjoy your little come up on everyone's expense because one thing I've learned in my 37 years...life is fair...good things happen to good people and shitty things happen to bad people.

I know entirely what you mean about things going well making things like this take a back-seat. I've been involved in a similar situation since Dec 06, where I'd paid someone $200 CDN to make something for me. After a month, they said that they couldn't make it afterall, as the parts they'd required weren't available, but offered to refund my money in four installments, so I agreed to that. One installment, returned fine. But a month later, they email me to say they've lost their job, so can't afford to make more repayments right away. I said that that was understandable, and to not worry about repaying the money until they'd landed a new job. Every month, I'd shoot them an email asking how things were, and, each time, they'd say they had an interview lined up, but, mysteriously, this would always fall through. In the end, I said not to worry about the money, and just to send me something from their own collection as a way of settling the debt by proxy. They didn't really want to do that, but offered to get me something else as a compensator, and to then still refund the money when they landed a job. A few months on from that, and I hadn't received the compensator, despite promises that it was ready for shipping (twice infact) so I just sent an email saying that enough was enough, and I'd gotten to the point where I just wanted to know if they ever intended to repay my money, or if they'd just played me for a chump. The response, was that they had actually landed a job, planned to make the repayments from their first pay cheque, and would post the compensator immediately. That arrived, and, although pretty poor quality, is workable into a nice project. I'm still waiting to see if they make good their promise of repayments... The only reason I let it all go on for 7 months was because I figured it wasn't a huge amount of money, and, I occasionally had other more pressing concerns in my life to deal with, and, times when all was well and it simply slipped my mind... All in all, it was pretty chickenshit behaviour in an attempt to scam me, but they didn't have the cojones for it, and came through (in part) on their promises in the end.

I don't have any tollerance for people who behave like this, and can't understand why people here are so reluctant to call people out when they are proven to be POS scammers, when reluctance to do so can lead to others also falling victim to similar behaviour...

Wow, people are still hoping that Mark aka Finepics will somehow just show up and make things right? I'm one of his victims, just a datewheel but one of many taken by this [censored]. I feel sorry for the ones that actually sent him watches as well with payments. We're talking small money here, but as an agregate... i'm sure quite a bit. My watch was the long time tenant of the wonderful host Ziggy that I eventually gave up. I would love to snatch his sorry ass up and throw him into the trunk of my CL500...our forum is built on trust and respect for it's members, and that's what really sucks about this situation. He screwed everyone.

Finepics is the only member/dealer transaction over 4 years in this hobby that has burned me. I have blindly given faith and money to dealers and members who have ALL COME THROUGH. And so have I. I remember my first transaction with EL 4 years ago when i sent him $2000 on my first order hoping he would come through...40+ watches later, EL is my go to guy. My first round of watches sent up north to good old Ziggy...would they get caught in customs, etc...flawless transactions always. Members like Chieftang who take the time to come through with an amazing AR run for the members, cyclops runs, etc. As far as I'm concerned, Mark is a POS who is both a liar and a thief...and a coward to boot. Come out and just state that no one will get anything back, that you spent the money on lap dances, or a big football bet that you lost, or put a down payment on an M5...just something so that everyone can forget about your sorry ass and move on.

We're all civil here, and we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but there is ZERO doubt that he's burned us. Any form of communication would have abated any ill will or frustration, but let's stop being in denial and end this thread and anything to do with Mark because...POOF! he's gone, disappeared like my morning [censored] down the drain.

Later loser, karma's a [censored]

dave

A few months back, there was a thread where certain dealers had been proven beyond doubt to be 'less than trustworthy'. Nothing was really done then, and I doubt anything will be done now. I love the community here, way better than on RWGI, but seriously, people need to learn to stop 'turning the other cheek' in the hopes things will be 'made right'. If someone's a POS scammer, then that's all there is too it, and they should be acknowledged as thus and treated accordingly...

Still wearing and loving the 2220.80 SMP. I had the misfortune of having to see my fiance's biological father today, and a few times, I caught him checking out my watch (he runs a minor watch repair stall on a local market, keeps all his funds 'under the radar', and has never paid a day's child support in his life... He knew my Submariner was a rep, but this one really had him guessing

I was talking about the orig. poster but Im sure many people could afford a few or many gens but love the deal of the reps...my problem is I take care of my reps as if they were gens...lol

That's cool And nothing wrong with treating a rep with some care, afterall, it's still a watch, and if it looks nice, why not keep it looking nice

To make it easier, just consider it as making a donation to a non-profit organization for which you get a watch as appreciation.

I'm more of a believer in the phrase 'Charity begins at home'... Haven't seen you on the boards in a while, I hope life's been treating you well

Ive been buying reps for years now back when EL was just known Sunshine and there was no RWG....I have to say the evolution of quality reps (not QC...LOL) is awesome. I would have never thought it possible to see the Breitlings we have today a few years back and YES I do like fooling people sometimes with my reps as well...its harmless fun and they are oh so close. Botm line I still cant believe that guy called you out on an almost 1:1 rep...makes me think he would have called a gen a fake as well in that situation out of jealousy.

Did you mean me or the OP? If you meant me, then yes, I'd totally agree, he would've done it even if I was wearin a gen Rolex. I could afford one if I wanted to buy one, I just refuse to pay an overinflated price-tag because of brandname.

Yes, but I'm having trouble believing that.

For the most part, we buy reps because we want someone to believe we have the genuine article. We're fooling someone even if it's just ourselves, and that's ok.

If you liked the look, you could get Alphas or similar, without ever having the customs risk. Or you could get less accurate, but much cheaper, reps. How much is a 3rd gen 42mm PO these days?

Well, you don't have to believe me, that's up to you

With regards Alphas, sure, they 'have the look', but only to a degree. As contradictory as this might sound, I'm not so keen on Alphas (or like) because they are self-branded clones. I want the dial to say 'Omega' (or whatever), because that's what the watch I like looks like. As you say, it's 'fooling ourselves', or at least 'fooling/satisfying' our eye. I wasn't [censored] off about being called out in the Snoot's Boutique because they were correct, I was [censored] off with their lack of manners (Then again, they're white South African, so what can one expect?) and they way they did it. Also, it annoyed me because they were offering services which they as a business could not provide. They have a sign on the wall specifying them as Rolex repair speciallists, but the Snoot doesn't actually have an in-house watchsmith, and only sends them away to Rolex. Sure, I can see how they can't send a rep back for repair, but there are ways and means of going about it. As a business professional, that wasn't the right way

Why buy replicas then?

If you hadn't cut the end of my sentence, you'd've had your answer

I'm not someone who really cares about 'labels', I go with what I like the look of, I'm just stingy when it comes to parting with my cash, so if I can get something similar for cheaper, I'll go with that option

There are watches that perform better than our reps for about the same price, but they don't say Rolex.

Indeed, they say Omega

Yeah, and he was right. That's the bit that hurts.

Well, he was right about it being a rep, but not so in thinking I was wearing one because I couldn't afford a gen Rolex if I wanted to

I'm not someone who really cares about 'labels', I go with what I like the look of, I'm just stingy when it comes to parting with my cash, so if I can get something similar for cheaper, I'll go with that option

so I don't agree the "you should look like a richie rich guy to make people believe your rep is gen" phase...

I don't think someone has to look 'super rich', but a person's age and appearance does come into play. The only time my Submariner was called out, was by a snooty South African proprietor, when I went into his boutique wearing jeans, Converse and a sweater. I'm 28 years old, but am constantly assumed to be in my early twenties, and have shoulder length hair and a beard. I don't tend to look like the kind of person who could afford a genuine Rolex, and that's what people pick up on when they call out a watch. As mentioned above, unless it is a glaringly obvious rep, or someone is just trying to be an ass to put someone down, chances are they are basing their judgement on the person's appearance, not the appearance of their watch. Recently, (although he wasn't there) I went in on the hunt for a new strap. I was wearing a cream colored suit, mahogony patent leather shoes, and a powder pink shirt (jacket through my bag strap as the weather was hot) One of the assistants asked if I needed help as soon as I stepped over the threshold, and was practically fawning over me while I explained what I was after. When their display of straps didn't have what I had in mind, she produced the strap catalogues for me to flip through... Wether it was the suit, the SMP, or just my Jedi Mind-Tricks, I certainly got much better service than my last visit to the store They didn't actually have anything like what I actually wanted though, so I thanked the assistant for her time and left to continue my strap hunt.

Do you feel collectors often quality control their very first shipment when you order that first time with them...and then, once they see you have your repeat custom, they start to be less careful?

After a full month's worth of purchasing 16 reps from 4 different collectors*, I've noticed that almost without exception their first shipment is impeccable, comms lightning quick, extremely fast shipping (less than a week), and problem-free.

Then, a breakdown in quality becomes highly noticeable, almost to the point of every shipment thereafter containing SOME problem, however insignificant like a wrong strap, deployant missing, and the like.

Ultimately, our hobby is riddled with problems, and patience is required. All of us understand that. And most of the more reputable collectors will take care of you without much hassle.

But

Still wearing the 2220.80 SMP. Still keeping to +4 seconds a day :cool:

I first had a 42mm Planet Ocean, and thought the 45mm would look too big, but, I went into an AD and tried one on. It was larger than the Daytona I'd worn in, but, did not dwarf my wrist. Personally, I'd suggest trying on a 45mm Planet Ocean before deciding 100% on the 42mm version

I just got back from ten days in Oahu, specificaly Waikiki. Everyone from young Japanese kids to middle-age American men had one. Our boat captain had one, and that's really the only one I confirmed was real. I must have seen at least thirty that I took the time to notice, including a young couple in their early twenties, with matching SS Subs.

I was considering a gen SS Sub as a reward for my next promotion, but I am seriously reconsidering. With all the reps out there, it's becoming such a common look. I know that the sub is a classic and the reps shouldn't influence me, but I'm tempted to just stay with a close replica and go with something a bit more exclusive as a gen.

On the other hand (sorry..bad pun), I saw only one Panerai. It was on a guy at the luau. It was a new 1950 that he had recently purchased. The thing stood out from everyone else and looked absolutely fantastic.

I know that there is alot of sentiment out there that the Sub is too common, but there is also a school of thought that any serious collector should have one.

What do you think?

I'd agree with both points there. The Submariner is certainly a nice watch, and I can appreciacte the thought that every collector should have one. That said, there are nicer watches available which stand out more... Personally, I find the Submariner too small now I've gotten used to my Planet Ocean Big Size and just don't wear mine anymore...

If you want 'a nice watch', (ie something expensive) then go with a VC Overseas. If you want a Submariner-style watch, then any of the Omega Seamaster watches are equally good (if not better, in my opinion) particularly the 2531.80, the 2220.80 or the 2254.50. If you really like the look of the Rolex, but want something a little different, how about aquiring (or even building) a Tudor Submariner?

Personally, I'd go for the 3717 but put it on a leather strap