meadowsweet_

Now you're talking! Nice service dial!

"I believe meadowsweet is going down a better path because of the choice of an Eta movement but the case and dial will still be a $$ burner although much less so than with the Phong case and dial. Not much choice." I completely agree with you Rick and thank you for your wealth of insight as always! I'm approaching this as sort of a "Yuki-level" build in regards to price/cost. Hoping this is a more "sane" approach to building a vintage Milgauss, of which there are very few options to embark upon like you said. Proof is in the pudding though, and I'll have to wait and see how good this dial and case set actually is when I get it in hand next week (I'll post up more detailed photos once I do). No question, I took a pretty big gamble buying a somewhat expensive, "untested" case set. But if Tonnywatches really does use the same parts supplier(s) that MQ uses as I suspect, and if Slay's 6541 is any indication, then I might have a pretty decent project on my hands and without spending thousands and thousands of dollars replicating such an obnoxiously rare and expensive vintage reference. Time will tell I guess...

So cool! Rarely seen is an understatement I'd say, even trying to source just parts for such a build is getting crazy expensive. I saw a NOS coin edge bezel for a 6541 on VRM for $20K! Good lord! Well, the 6541 dials specifically from both MQ and Tonny were more expensive than, say, a "run of the mill" 1680 or 5513 dial. The prices are more inline with Minh's top shelf gilt dials, etc. I believe MQ charges $750 for their Milgauss dial and I paid $300 for the one from Tonny

Just wanted to fire up a thread on a 6541 Milgauss build as I get started with it and progress through it. Wanted to share some initial QC pics of the dial and case, etc. Literally all the components of the build is en route to me and needed parts start showing up first thing next week... (Some inspiration for the build:) Dammit Slay... A genuine 6541 Milgauss is an extremely rare bird indeed with auction estimated well into the six figures if and when they even do pop up on the auction block. Accordingly, a 6541 build of your own can get EXTREMELY expensive. Maybe not a quarter mil like a gen, but still... There are few case options out there for vintage Milgauss builds and what is out there is pricey. More with this build than some others perhaps, but the case, as much as the dial, makes or breaks this project. The case is especially important because of the unique internal construction of its Farraday cage shielding the movement from potentially harmful magnetic fields. Aside from the frankly terrible budget (Cartel?) out-of-the-box versions of the 6541 that are floating around, you're left with what appears to be pretty much just two (albeit two very good) case set options: Phong or MQ. And if you've ever looked into the case prices of either, you start to understand why so few people endeavor upon these builds - Minh Q's case comes in at around $1250 and Phong's around $1800(!) iirc. So before you even start looking for dials you're already in the hole for over a grover. Damn... Now, I'm not one to skimp on my builds, but this was already staring to look like a money pit even if this is essentially a mid-shelf "budget" version of a Milgauss build LOL. So I put the idea of the build on the back burner for a while and turned my attention back to the gen-dialed 1016 build I'm working on. That is until I saw Slay's sales post with his absolutely STUNNING 6541 franken build. Slay spared no expense, MQ case and dial, gen 1030 movement, gen hands, the works... My jaw hit the ground. It was damn near perfect and now I had to build one. So I re-started my search and began weighing my case and dial options in earnest once again. Dial As luck would have it, a "new" guy had popped up on Instagram about 6 months ago peddling high end rep dials and a few cases, Tonnywatches. I started following him and was pretty impressed with the quality of the dials he was posting; "Vietnam" dials that were, to my eye anyways, on par with or very close in quality (maybe even the same?) to the dials Minh Q offers (some of the better aftermarket dials for many builds imho), but at less than half the price in some instances. I'm always weary of new sellers (who isn't, right?) but his 6541 dial looked an awful lot like MQ's and it cost about 40% of what the MQ dial costs so I said what the hell and pulled the trigger and purchased one. Looks pretty good to me; the coroner is so-so, but I have a gen white gold dial coronet to replace that one, and I'm might give those lume plots a very understated aging/re-lume. Love the fade on the reddish-pink Milgauss text and the SCOC printing/spacing looks pretty good compared to reference photos of gen dials. Certainly not "perfect" in any sense of the word, but pretty good all things considered and again looks almost identical to the $750 MQ dial. The printing is a little heavy handed and they didn't get the "crippled" R in Perpetual right amongst other minute details, but you really can't beat it for the price. Hands Only one really strong option imho for the 6541's characteristic thunderbolt seconds hand and that's Michael Young at CWP. Looks great and it's long enough to extend into the dial's minute track as per gen. The hour and minute hands, however, are the leaf-shaped hand type with the lume and I want to fit a set of the no lume all-metal "leaf" hands that were also fitted to the 6541. Luckily for me, Offrei offers the near-exact same style hands in an array of sizes and fit for ETA so they'll be compatible with my movement choice and I can get the lengths just right (like a 12.5-13mm minute hand extending into the track like the seconds hand). I'm going to remove the red paint from the thunderbolt tip and age the hands with some sulfur, acids, and some light abrasives. The below reference photo of a gen shows the style, length and aging of the hands I'm going for: Since I'm using an ETA movement (more on that in a minute) I won't have to broach the hands either (which I have an atrocious track record with). Might have been the easiest sourcing yet: a quick email exchange with Michael, payment sent and hands on their way in a matter of days. Ordered a spattering of differently sized and shaped leaf hands from Offrei. They were so cheap I was able to buy enough that I'll be able to make sure I get the aged look correct and possibly file down a larger sizes minute hand to match the length of the CWP thunderbolt. Case When I was going back and forth with Tonny about the dial, I happened to dig a little bit deeper into his Instagram and saw that he actually had a 6541 case set he was offering mixed in amongst the photos of his various small crown, big crown, etc. cases. It looked pretty good in the photo he posted and I already had some experience with one of his 5508 case sets that I had purchased for a friend of mine, so I knew the quality was pretty good and that, generally speaking, his cases were pretty gen-spec. For sure, some modifications would have to be done (lug bevels need some tlc for instance), but again the price was right especially considering the case construction had the correct Farraday cage that is central to getting this build right. All said, case set and dial would cost me less than half of what just a Phong case set would've cost me. So again, I pulled the trigger and asked Tonny for some quick QC pics before making my purchase: (Photo from Tonnywatches Instagram:) (QC photos:) You get the idea... Pretty good if you ask me, but still much work to be done. The dial/cage construction is correct and I'm comfortable re-doing the perlage on the Farraday cage back. The only thing not pictures (which is, in fact, included with the case) is the cross-shaped metal tension "spring" that seats into the inside of the case back and keeps the cage snugly sandwiched together around the movement protecting it from magnetic field variations (well, in theory anyways haha). Other than that, I'll weigh my options on having the mid case re-shaped/thinned and maybe re-do the lug bevels. Should make a good base though for sure... Bezel, Insert, Crown, etc. Some of the finer details of the case set have yet to be seen since I'm still waiting on it to show up from Tonny, but there are some modifications that are inevitable: Gen crown is an easy one,; already have a few various 6mm gen crowns in the parts drawer and a gen 602 tube which are way less problematic than installing a 600 tube which would have been "more" correct for a 6541. No question, a 602 would've been installed during a service however, and requires no broaching/modification prior to install. I picked up a gen T-16 beveled service crystal, and as luck would have it, also happen to have an aftermarket domed T-16 from Phong sitting gathering dust. I love the look of the Milgauss with its domed crystal, but much prefer the practicality of the lower-profile beveled service so it'll be nice to have both should I ever decide to switch between one or the other. The insert that comes with the Tonny case is suspect and I had already acquired a Phong 6541 insert before I got the case, so I'm going to give the Tonny insert some heavy aging for a more worn-in/beat up look for the watch should I ever want it. The Phong insert is pretty spot on; the only thing I might do to it is bleach out the red triangle a little bit and give it a good fade. The bezel ring looks pretty suspect in the QC pictures as well, but I'll have to wait to have it in hand before I can see if it's up to snuff with the shape of the coin edge or if I'll be able to properly age it to give it an older, polished worn-in look. Tonny assured me its plates brass so I'll be able to sand/age/tarnish/polish the bezel and take it down to the brass in what I feel is a more appropriate look for a half-century old watch. If the bezel construction or shape isn't good enough however, I'll just buy one from MQ as I feel his is just a tiny bit better than the one Phong offers and both are pretty solid stand-ins for the genuine article. Yet again neither option is cheap (see a theme developing here?), so I'm hoping the Tonny bezel passes muster. The case should be here in a week so I'll know for certain then. The engravings also look a little iffy in the QC photos, and if they're too are not good enough then hopefully I can send the mid and back to JMB to be re-done. Plenty of bracelet options as I've got both an NDT and Yuki 7206 waiting in the wings and picked up this really nice NOS StyleCraft 20mm tropic rubber strap that I think will look good on either my 1016 or the 6541 for a more subdued look that's still somewhat substantial and fitting for the era of the watch to a certain degree: Movement As you can see, I've already got a decent amount invested into this build, and as nice as it might be to put a cal. 1030 into a build like this, it just doesn't seem all that practical to me because: a) the Farraday cage covers the movement so you don't see it, b ) sourcing parts and servicing a 1030 movement is becoming increasingly difficult and cost prohibitive, and c) I plan on wearing this watch. A lot. And the ETA 2782 I'm using is far more rough & tumble-ready than the 1030. I found a brand new NOS watch with a 2782 that had been sitting untouched and unused in storage for the last few decades. It's in really great shape, and after a good cleaning and oiling, will run like a dream. The 2782 has a nice low beat rate, good stem height, good canon pinion height, and the same Kif shock absorbers Rolex would later use in its 1500-series movements so it should be able to handle a fair amount of wear and tear. I got a Yuki 1030 ETA movement ring to make it fit in the case correctly, and one of the only internal modifications I'll need to do is notch out the middle ring of the Farraday cage so the movement clamps can seat the movement in the case properly. The Farraday cage is 3 parts: the interior case back, the middle ring section with a small opening for the winding stem, and the dial (the bottom side of which "completes" the cage by capping over the movement and lining up flush with the middle ring section. Like the Phong dial and cage, the dial has no feet so as long as I can get the cage pieces to line up properly and get the movement with the Yuki adapter seated firmly in the cage install should be relatively painless. All things considered, once I have all the pieces in front of me the assembly will go rather quickly hopefully. I'll update this thread as o go along with each part of the build so hopefully I can glean some insight from others and maybe be the "guinea pig" with one of these Tonny cases (and dial for that matter). Stay tuned...

I have always disliked the over-use of the word "Grail" to describe a watch or a build, but this one certainly has to be up there for me: a 6305 "Ovettone" DateJust with a honeycomb dial. As much as I would like to invest a considerable amount of time and energy into such a build, I've never really seriously considered the endeavor as I've never seen a dial come up for these, gen or rep. I know both NDT and more notably Minh offer pretty nice honeycomb iterations of Milgauss, Explorer, Turn-O-Graph, etc. dials (and I'm guessing probably Tonnywatch now as well), but the 6305 is one I've never seen and was wondering if anyone has ever come across such a dial? Tall order I'm sure, but man, just look at that thing... Would make a helluva franken project imvho...

Awesome! Great eye for a dial many may have overlooked and the finished build is just perfectly understated. Wonderful work! Btw, where did the bracelet come from? Looks nice...

Definitely not a gen rotor. Personally, I don't see the need for one in something like the franken Air King pictured above. The movememt I originally got from VW/Jensen (Phong's son), who is a friend of mine and had kind of become my de-facto watch smith here in the US. Reliable, fast, excellent communication/cust. service and an all-around super nice guy too. The 2784 is one of the JAW/VW "in-house" movements they sell, and from what I understand Jensen does the perlage work himself prior to cleaning and assembly. I added the Tudor-engraved aftermarket rotor (had it in my parts drawer) after the fact when I disassembled the movement to slot the plate for the dial. Side Note: I know people love Phong and Jensen's case work, and rightfully so, but something that I feel gets overlooked from time to time is that they are both also excellent watchsmiths in their own right too, albeit expensive for certain things like the cases and engraving work. Every single "in-house" movement I've bought from Jensen ($200) has come beautifully decorated, well cleaned, overhauled, assembled and timed extremely well. Run as good and as accurately as any ETA-branded movement I've purchased in the last few years. I later showed Jensen photos of the slotted plate and he even offered to do it for me next time at little cost (when purchasing another movement from him), so next time those holes will be much cleaner/prettier I hope LOL!

Oh absolutely, I wasn't implying anything wasn't original, I was just curious. The last iterations of 6542s were equipped with aluminum inserts iirc and the insert you have is a beauty! I'd maybe check with CWP and maybe even ABC Watchwerks to get restoration quotes from them; might be more reasonable and they both are highly regarded in the vintage Rolex world. All things considered, I'd say try and keep the watch all gen if you can swing it, grab that service dial and go from there...

Nothing gives me greater anxiety than the prospect of properly drilling out lug holes. Probably why you were the one of the only people I'd ever want to do such a mod lol! Great info J, thank you. New members take heed, JMB is one of the finest machinists in our community hands down!

Don't see many 6542s without their original Bakelite bezel. What on the watch is original? Hands are obviously replacement SL, where did the dial come from? Were any of these parts actual RSC replacements? If you were trying to restore it to its former, all-original glory, prepare to spend a small fortune on a gen Bakelite bezel, small arrow hands set, and OCC service dial (if you can even find them). It will definitely not come cheap, but it will make your 6542 look amazing of course. If you're ok with turning it into more of a "franken" piece, try sourcing a Bakelite from Tonnywatches and a dial from either him or Minh Q. Hands set, if not going all original, I'd hit up Classic Watch Repair or either of the above for a complete and matching small arrow set. You'll probably have to have everything re-lumed to your preference as well. These are just a few recommendations, there are others out there with good aftermarketparts if that's really the way you want to go; I'm sure a few members better versed in 6542s will chime in. In my VERY humble opinion, if it were mine I would try and get it back to as "original" as possible. Regardless though, beautiful watch

Wow, shortening up that dial seat and bringing the dial up closer to the bezel really makes a huge difference. Primo work as always

Just some quick photos of a 2784-powered franken 5500 Air King of mine that's had the plate slotted to accept gen Air King dial (57 and 30). Like blue said, definitely do-able, but certainly requires a leap of faith in possibly messing up the movement, as there is very little room for error. The dial feet can also be just barely shortened too to ensure clearance of all other movememt parts mounted onto the plate. This AK runs like a champ, and should I ever decide to "upgrade" to a gen movmnt, the option will always be there (doubtful I'd ever want to though, no point really). Nevertheless less, the process can prove nerve-racking to say the least... (Tudor-decorated 2784 slotted to accept dial feet at minute 30 and 57) (Minute 57; microns of clearance; pardon the ugly holes too btw...) (Minute 30; again, mere microns of clearance)

Folded link or rivet bracelet for a 1016 all the way. Picked up a nice 7206 with 80 ends from NDT for about the same price as Yuki's and quality is pretty fantastic. The 80 ELs it came with fit a gen 16200 case quite well too...

Thank you for clarifying @automatico I always appreciate your insight. Btw, I know you've built quite a few 1016s in various configurations and I was curious to see if you knew how well an ETA movement fits into a gen 16200-series case? Movement ring since OD is typically .5mm smaller than a 3135? I was planning on using a Tudor 2834 or more likely a 2782 I already have but again wasn't sure about stem alignment in a gen 16200 case (I do know the 2782's height of the canon pinion, hour wheel, and fourth wheel are more accurate for a 1016 build).

@mymanmatt great point! That would certainly make sense considering the day window runs from minute 55 to minute 5 iirc. I'm talking about slotting an ETA movement so I'm gonna have to notch the main plate regardless of what dial is on it originally. I have a 2836-powered Air King with a gen dial (same feet position as 1016 dial) on it and I do remember there was plenty of room, relatively speaking, under the balance assay and movement area to notch out the plate so I'm hopeful that notching the 2834 will follow suit.

So I was lucky enough to acquire a gen 1016 service dial a while back and have just been offered a very well-priced gen Tudor 2834 movement (originally from a 80s-era Date-Day I believe) that I was thinking about purchasing for the build. Obviously, one of my main objectives here is to preserve the dial feet, so I was going to have the movement prepared to accept the dial (slotted at minute 57 and minute 30). My question is this: will any of the pinions have to be replaced or shortened to allow the hands to sit at the right height/clearance above the dial? Also, I am assuming that obviously the day and date wheels should be removed but I'm wondering if the calendar spacer should stay on? I'd like to thank any and everyone in advance for any insight they may have with this issue. One step closer to finally completing this 1016!

I always thought a DJ or OP would look awesome on a sterling/turquoise old pawn watch cuff. And these engraved DJs would be perfect for something like that. Definitely not for everybody, but I've always thought they were a really cool piece of Western/Native Americana

Utter madness. Have you seen the price of faded inserts lately too? $3K, $4K, $5K... And for some that have obviously been artificially too aged no less. Sheesh...

Be still my heart. Those bevels... That dial... Next level work as always dbane, wow!

Here here R, totally agree! Just one example: look at the proliferation of used/faded gen inserts sold on places like VRM. It's obviously now more than acceptable for the "purists" to openly swap out, say, a service insert on their 1675 for a faded fat font Pepsi to make their watch more "original" or "vintage" (and pay an exorbitant amount of money in the process of doing so lol) and not many seem to turn their up nose at such a swap. And "gen" watches with refinished dials, hands, etc. even pop up in major auction house catalogs from time to time; though they may fetch significantly less (and the real intense purists won't touch them). Personally, the reason why I decided to embark upon building a few frankens was not to labor over something that would just sit in a watch box, but to build something that I could actually wear (frequently) and enjoy without dropping close to $10K and constantly fretting over its use (and lest we forget, these are for the most part TOOL watches). Also, the depth of knowledge attained by those who build frankens is immeasurable, and there is enjoyment to be had not only from building such a watch, but also knowing every last minute detail about it; many "purists" who would scoff at these builds could not tell you nearly as much about the same watch on their wrist that they just happened to pay the $10K/$20K/$30K for because it's "factory gen". And i think as long as deceit or a nefarious sale isn't the objective, then there should absolutely be great pride in building an uber franken, because as many of us know, it takes a lot more blood sweat and tears to build your grail than it does to merely hit "Buy It Now" on eBay.

Whom may I ask did the printing for you? Looks great from the photos

Ha! I figured as much. Such astute attention to detail here. More so than most anywhere

Looks like some of the sleuths over at VRM called him out on it immediately too haha

Freddy, is that a linen dial? Never seen one with a linen texture that "dark"/defined. Looks amazing!

No bueno. SCOC fonts and spacing is WAY off