unregistered

miles you show off...now just get rid of the 040 and send it my way instead, you've got too many lovely PAMs already

Nobody in the rep world that I know of sells in volume Swiss 6497-2 movements with Asian bridges. They are generally all 6497-1 movements. There may be a few guys with good skills who can somehow get ahold of 6497-2 movements and transplant the bridges, but in general, that is not the case. DSNs Swiss movements would be the same as pictured above, the 6497-1 asian bridged. Just ask him for the beat count for the swiss movements, he'll tell you its 17k+, which indicates a 6497-1.

I'm just going to stick to your queries even though personally I feel your style of posting and questions extremely aggressive and very unreceptive to comments, but here are my answers which I feel will undoubtedly get shot down by yours truly, but they are what I know them to be since I started collecting PAM reps about 3 years ago. DSN has been around for sometime and all who are into PAMs have used him at some point or another for parts or whole watches. I generally get parts from him, but have on several occasions gotten whole watches, both "Swiss" and "Asian" movements from him. He differs from the standard cartel watches due to the pieces he has, the casesets, crowns, crownguards are either better or worst off than Cartel pieces, depending on model so it really boils down to individual models. There are a plethora or comparison reviews for his pieces, several in my sig. 1) To address your first question, we need to discuss the history of replica PAM movements, I'll stick to primarily the current style of PAM movements and ignore the OP II versions and only deal with the OP XI ones, with either the stamped PANERAI bridges or engraved Cotes de Geneve ones. Essentially, the OP XI movements back in 2007 came in two forms, either swiss or asian. The swiss could not be called pure swiss movements but more "hybrid" versions whereby the baseplate, gears, hairspring and everything else associated with the movement were swiss except the overhead bridges. These were all based on the easily available ETA 6497-1 A swiss based asian bridged 6497-1 Easiest tells were the novidiac shock system in the escapement, the larger teeth in the main gear wheel which denotes the low beat 17k/bph movement and at that time, ETA stamp just under the balance wheel. And the three straight spokes for the balance wheel. The asian 6497s at that time also were low beat but used the incabloc style shock system instead but had not ETA stamp and overall, their finishing was less than spectacular. Around October of that year a new series of Asian movements started appearing, these were high beat 21,600bph movements with incabloc shock systems and better finishing and servicing, i.e. these were coming out of the factories lubed and working very well. Several of the more well known modders like Vacc and Flav, all chimed in and said the newer 6497 model was superior to the "swiss" engined movements out there. Way to spot them was as I mentioned above, the smaller and increased number of gearing teeth and the incabloc escapement. This more closely resembles the 6497-2 movement the gen OP XI utilises with soprod bridges. Also, the spokes on the balance wheel flared out like the gen as they came closer to the outer wheel. I show two of such movements above, but the one on the right can only be had from another dealer from RG. Its still a base asian movement, but all the gears are highly polished, the main plates white gold plated and the incabloc has the correct "Y" cut in it as per gen. The swiss movements never changed and still utilised the older novadiac shock system. So yes, you are correct in saying that DSNs is "wrong" in stating he is using swiss movements, cause they are not PURE swiss movements. But they are generally swiss based parts in there except for the main plate bridges. Above is a verified swiss based 6497-1 from DSN. There are many many more differences between movements, just look at this movement quiz put together by Druhlee on the older OPII movement which contains pics of both gen and rep movements and you'll see the length and breadth of issues that can cloud this discussion, especially in hybrid movements. 2) As for prices, it all depends on what you're willing to pay. Little Hero charges $1200 for one of his 111/112/219 creations. Is it worth it? To most no. Yet I own one. Is it perfect? No, there are flaws as I identified in my thread. Am i happy? Very much so. Is DSN worth the money versus cartel? In most cases, yes. Cartel from online (and I am not talking about your street side haggling with dealers, I live in Singapore and go to Malaysia often, yes you can get superreps as well at lower prices, but for the general public on these boards, they have no such access, so we'll compare apples to apples here if you don't mind). From a Cartel based website, a normal asian high beat 111H would cost $278+shipping thereabouts. DSNs would cost at last check, $340 with asian movement, or $420 with swiss movement including shipping. The differences? Beefier case, slightly thicker crown (though incorrectly beveled), slightly better CGs, thicker in his current series, and this is the clincher that most people go for, better dials and superlume on the numerals. It's a Panerai, and lume is in its blood. His talk about pressure testing his watches etc etc, I'll take that with a pinch of salt, not cause I don't believe he wouldn't do it, just that it sounds like marketing. But point for point, there are a multitude of differences between a DSN watch and a Cartel watch which in some cases can be shown to be qualitatively better and warrant the price difference. You mentioned his $800 watch, that is using a genuine ETA/SOPROD movement in there, that is why the price jump (ok fine, with asian rotor to have it engraved). A little research first before throwing numbers around. So all this is subjective. You've shown you had an issue with his prices. Fine. I've shown that in some cases they are justified versus normally available Cartel watches. I hope this brings the end to this thread. Oh and if you have such an issue with DSN, start up a thread in the Rolex or Omega area lamblasting the cartel on their verified genuine swiss 2824 movements, when everyone knows these are no longer the case. Now that is downright false advertising Merry Christmas all!

It looks a lot like a torobravo CG, at least they're probably using the same factories. A big step up from the DSN CG though. Some flaws but not noticeable to most

Its actually a 90s watch. Hesalite crystal and Sapphire display caseback with C.863 cotes de geneve engraved movement

hackR, agreed, its a lovely piece, I was more directing it at the two posts above Docs, I guess most who know me, know my pursuit of accuracy, so rather than get the wrong impression out, I'd correct it first Again, its a lovely piece and I do think you'll be wearing it well! Apologies again if I stepped on your toes

Not to thread crap. I think its a good build with some flaws, but how is that CG very good? Maybe I'm just anal about this and I apologise to all. A 177H should feature the thick styled CGs as per the 111H-K series & Pre-V. So to be accurate, it has to be of the shape of a V, LH or Gen CG, i.e. very much thicker, curved upper portion, and viewed from the front, a sloping downwards angle. There is no single rep Ti CG that has that. Only the currently under production Toro Bravo ones are slated to come closer to that ideal (though still not perfect)

Cause everything else on it is damn near perfect His CG is gorgeous for a A-F series CG. The crown is nice and thick with the right amount of bevel. The dial (well there were two versions), the earlier fatter number version was extremely accurate. And the AR is suprisingly light and close to the gen with a mild purple hue of an F series I saw recently. Plus, the movement is one of the better finished ones I've handled. Mainly though, its the crown and CG that make the Angus Ultimate 111E very much sought after, especially if its lumed and with the correct caseback Saw one on RG sell for $500 without even the correct caseback about a month ago...

haha, yes Doc, its the ultimate They're hard to come by though, and it a simple switch to get the correct DSN caseback which I did, which shows the correct serial number and more importantly, the correct issued series number, which is 3500 instead of 4000 for the "E" series 111 & 113.

Jakobh on RG is doing custom solid casebacks and only for a limited range of casebacks. Mainly Pre-V 201A/202A/203A etc and some Pre-A, A & B series as well. As for custom display casebacks, I know of no one doing custom. The ones that are out there that I know of for Luminor Marina watches; E series : E0053/3500 (DSN) or E208P/4000 (Angus Ultimate) F series : F2052/4000 (Cartel) H series : H0035/2000 (Cartel&DSN) I series : I2165/2500 (LH) LH doesn't sell his caseback alone though

To all RGers, you've seen this. To the RWGers, a small thank you and sharing session of my collection. Some reps, some gens

Here you go, hope it works for you now. If you want some reviews of Panerai reps available with pics, there's a community guide up on RepGeek that lists them. (Sorry guys, ain't trying to drive traffic over to RG or anything) PAM_table_v6.0.zip

Looks like one of the earlier gen LH dials. Very nice. Now just get one of Toros Ti CGs when they're done and this is golden.

Its his lambo black leather. Real soft and supple, extremely classy. Love it.

Just curious, though I can't help, why you want specifically a white dialed font for the 127? Anyhow, from memory DSN has never had off-white colored fonts for any of his watches, so he'd be a good bet to contact for just the dial

Well, with a Puretime one, to me you wouldn't be getting the two things that make a Panerai, a Panerai, the thick crown and thick CG. You'll be getting the standard 1.8~1.9mm crowns and thin CGs. With Sead, you're coming close with the T48 crown which is visually very close to the gen, and the CG, though not 100% accurate to a Gen/V/LH, is a huge improvement over the rep stuff. Also, his dials are DSN dials, which though not accurate, are also better than the cartel dials which feature the wrong cutouts for 2 and 6 and also the wrong printing for LSML. Also, sead is a top bloke to deal with. I've dealt with him numerous times on RG, and he's helped me out so many times. And if you're in the US, no custom issues. So to me, the choice is simple, sead all the way, from the perspective of getting a better watch overall, and also due to service. Also, recently he's also started offering to strip the AR on his 111s, which is not a bad idea as the stock Cartel AR is fairly strong blue.

Francisco I think does them

lani, it depends on the model and series For eg, the PAM25H has a faint purple hue to the AR, same as the 177H and 104J. The earlier D series (first series to start having ARed crystals) has blueish hue to the crystal and I've seen pics of a 164J and even 005G with bluish tint. The newer 111/112J&K have almost no hue to the AR at all. Just some of the differences I've seen whilst handling a wide range of gen PAMs. So sometimes, with us nitpicking every little detail, it gets a little crazy as there are huge differences in the gens themselves.

My favorite black one is actually from a strap maker on RG. Vanilla Gorilla. Amazing guy and I've just started a project with him for a 27/24 brown ostrich leg strap for my 232. He made this black 24/24 strap for me and it's stunning;

Here's what I told someone else when they asked about polishing the dots Straps, if you want something highend and amazing, get from Strap Culture or Heroic18 Something cheap but decent Panatime. I've also tried the Getat Watch straps and they are very impressive for the price. The one on my 243 is the suede locco horse from Panatime which I distressed further in bleach. As for the price of the watch. It's up to you mate, buy the dealer first, then the watch. I've used most and they are generally all ok, price wise, +/- $30 from each other.

Well, on the wrist, no the cyclops and dw arn't that bad, but they are significantly different from the gen The cyclops doesn't bother me all that much, but seems to bother some. The dw, slightly, that's why I will change it, I prefer the thick "squashed" look of the gen. There may be other versions, but I aint too sure, they should all come from the same factory. It could just be the angle.

You've just started down a long and slippery slope mate Unfortunately, the CG you've mentioned is only applicable to Fiddy(1950) style cases. Majority of them have the domed sapphire crystals. The only one that comes to mind in the rep world is the PAM 243, which is a submersible range without sandwich dial. (Some pics on RG) What I think you'd probably go for is the new style PAM 312 (just google for images), its got a flat-ish sapphire crystal, fiddy style case with the CG you like, sandwich dial and lovely movement. Most are still waiting for a rep, and a so-so version is out on watcheden's site I believe.

Well, the 243 I've already begun modifying it bit by bit. The markers are now polished and this is a MUST DO mod for this piece, after I did it, I couldn't take my eyes off the watch and ended up keeping it (its for a friend and I ordered another one for him ). Pushed up the CG pin and mildly flattened it. The next mod is to get one of Taka's datewheels when they are done and install. After that, there is nothing left I can do, unless a proper mod is found to replace that cyclops In truth, when I picked up the 111I from LH, I was going to sell my 111E. However, after having both, they are such different watches and both a joy to behold. I love the 111E movement more than the 111I, and each has it's own personality.

Just to rub some salt in the wounds 111I & 111E, both reps But cost a pretty penny. Yeah, I strongly suggest going for the subs instead. Harder to call out since less people wear them, and some truly are stunning. But it's a journey though. I started with a DSN 112, and sold that and stayed off PAMs for awhile and made vintage pieces, then slowly but surely I came back to the fold, getting and building that 111E, then a franken 232, afterwhich the 240 Ti, and then the biggest purchase, the LH 111I, and now the 243I.

Well, the universal Submersible is the PAM24, but the reps arn't that good to be honest. I too am not a fan of the 199's dial, the weave dial just doesn't do it for me Good luck on the search, personally, I think you would be better off with an ultimate Submersible which are damn near hard to tell as reps, than a 111 which have a lot of tells, unless you go the Little Hero route, but that will cost over $1000. But that's just my opinion after being around PAM reps for so long.