Am I a racist?

[andreww]

I received this email today. A lot of point that I've often thought about.

Feel free to discuss...

Proud to be White

Michael

[TwoTone]

Ballsy post Andreww...

I'll let it ride for now...

But I'm pretty confident that it [the loop] will deteriorate rather quickly...

:::watching:::

[b16a2]

It's an interesting point. I believe the only reason that it is considered more sensitive to call anyone other than a white person by a 'politically incorrect' name is due to the history associated with it.

By that I mean historically, there were massive racism issues where certain races were greatly surpressed by white people. Therefore, because the world has worked towards trying to improve that position, anyone using a 'politically incorrect' word against another race is seen as a racist (in some peoples eyes).

However, because the white race hasn't historically been surpressed as a race (ok there are examples of it, eg Zimbabwe), but in general calling a white person a 'honky' doesn't have as much of a historical impliction, and therefore it is less 'policitcally sensitive' to do so.

I myself have no problem in calling people black, white, asian etc... I would refrain from using words that are seen as derogatory, not because it wouldn't be politically correct in doing so, but merely because of common courtesy and politeness.

I do feel that there is a general feeling that there is some kind of positive discrimination (discrimination isn't the right word, but racism doesn't sounds right) emerging, but I have plenty of black friends who in actual fact don't have a problem being caled black etc... because that's what they are. It is interesting to note that I find more white people find it outrageous to call people black etc...

[mpp]

It is a topic sure to invite much discussion, but it is not Michael Richards and he had nothing to do with this statement.

Check the link below and it will explain the origin of this.

Cheers,

mp

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/proudwhite.asp

[andreww]

@ TT, not trying to start anything mate. I'm just not the type that feels handcuffed by political correctness. I can say what I feel simply because I know there is no hatred or bias behind it. I didn't write the above, but I can't say that I disagree with much of it.

@b16a2, granted the "N" word has a lot of bad history behind it, but I'm sure that most racial names do as well. All groups have had their fair share of hardships. Just never understood why speaking about anything associated with blacks always results in gasps. When did we go from Archie Bunker being the number one show in America, to media personalities being fired for making racialy flavored jokes?

[andreww]

It is a topic sure to invite much discussion, but it is not Michael Richards and he had nothing to do with this statement.

Check the link below and it will explain the origin of this.

Cheers,

mp

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/proudwhite.asp

sorry, I kind of doubted that this quote was actually written by Richards. Regardless, there are some interesting points made.

[chiefwiggum]

Sorry - self deleted content because I won't get dragged into this. Opinions and views are often misconstrued and twisted, so it's better to keeps one's thoughts to oneself.

[lanikai]

Part of my College education was in Oregon.. back in the day a very conservative State.. WE (from Hawaii that looked different) were always followed by employees in stores etc... it really didn't bother us as we really felt we were in "foreign" land..

My sociology Prof. used to state that society will never understand discrimination unless the group that practices it the most go through the same thing themselves... back then that was a very sensative subject...and he was very avaunt guard in his theory..but it makes sense to me..

I experienced more racist comments when I moved to Washington State..

Ethnics groups that have been discriminated against band together... makes sense to me..

But remember All Americans .. save for the "Native Americans" are immigrants .. and to put it bluntly this country was based on discrimination(from the Latin crimin or criminal), even though the founders were escaping discrimination themselves .. but it really comes down to Education.. the uneducated of the Country are raised with a set of norms that are indelibly ingrained into their psyche... if we are truly born tabularosa [sic] .. or as a blank slate ... all that we are is learned, other than hunger.. fear... etc. ...

Each one of us ..imo .. are to some extent racist in nature... If I were to visit a Country and were mistreated because of my ethnic background.. I surely would feel animosity toward the ethnic group that governed that Country ...

When angered many would revert to race instead of character.. each ethnic group has good and bad.. but we all use their race as reason at times.. a lack of understanding and compassion at times raises racial slurs..

it could be the fact that the States that founded slavery and fought for the South were Caucasian ... so the perception is that the race is stereotyped through past acts as racist, as was evident during the civil rights movement, or the internment and taking of land with the American Japananese population During WWII .. and as other ethnic groups have been stereotyped in other respects ....

The Holocaust being the apex of any prejudice !!

One should always be Proud of one's Heritage!!! no matter your ethnic background or Country..

it would be a far better World if we could all get along despite racial makeup .. but the reality is from the beginning of time it has been this way...Country.. Race.. Religion ..

Education can only bring so much healing.. as it's what man doesn't understand that draws fear.. and fear of what one does not understand is the root for all actions.. imo..

AC

Lani

[hooky]

Richards/Kramer purposefully leave out the facts that there is a History and the facts about minorities. His arguments are way too simplistic, only in order to benefit his defense speech in court. He should be ashamed of himself taking this discussion into a wrong direction without really looking at all relevant facts and variables, just for his own benifit and almost making it a ridicule.

[andreww]

Good points Lani. I understand both sides of this issue, but I feel that a politically correct decision has been made to sweep the problem under the rug and never speak of it again. I have always felt that th best method to overcome a situation is open discussion. In regards to racial slurs? I was always taught the "sticks and stones" method of dealing with it. Ignore the slurs long enough and they lose their power. When was the last time you heard someone say wop, deigo or chink? It just doesn't happen. So why does the n-word continue to be such a thorn in our sides? Maybe because I rarely ever hear it come out of a white guys mouth anymore, yet blacks seem to use it all the time. Funny how a word that was so demeaning and hurtful when said by a white man, can become such a common word in the black vocabulary.

[andreww]

Richards/Kramer purposefully leave out the facts that there is a History and the facts about minorities. His arguments are way too simplistic, only in order to benefit his defense speech in court. He should be ashamed of himself taking this discussion into a wrong direction without really looking at all relevant facts and variables, just for his own benifit and almost making it a ridicule.

it's already been pointed out that Richards never said this. Regardless, I'm interested in hearing the basis for your arguement that the author should be ashamed.

[andreww]

Sorry - self deleted content because I won't get dragged into this. Opinions and views are often misconstrued and twisted, so it's better to keeps one's thoughts to oneself.

see, that's the kind of thing that bothers me. No doubt that Wiggum is a stand up guy, but for some reason he is reluctant to freely state his opinion. To me that is the real issue.

[lanikai]

Good points Lani. I understand both sides of this issue, but I feel that a politically correct decision has been made to sweep the problem under the rug and never speak of it again. I have always felt that th best method to overcome a situation is open discussion. In regards to racial slurs? I was always taught the "sticks and stones" method of dealing with it. Ignore the slurs long enough and they lose their power. When was the last time you heard someone say wop, deigo or chink? It just doesn't happen. So why does the n-word continue to be such a thorn in our sides? Maybe because I rarely ever hear it come out of a white guys mouth anymore, yet blacks seem to use it all the time. Funny how a word that was so demeaning and hurtful when said by a white man, can become such a common word in the black vocabulary.

A good example of 2 wrongs don't make a right perhaps.. the History of "America" can be one of Pride and Shame..

We were the last Country to abolish slavery .. we were the first and only to use the Atom bomb in Anger... yet we are a Democracy with so called equal rights for all.. good in theory.. but it is My country too and I am proud to be here..

The only thing that we can do representing the 'World' is Educate our Children .. give them love and "teach" them that all men are created equal..

I am fortunate that I grew up in Hawaii where all ethnic groups grew up as "local" ... I had best friends of all races .. I attended a lot of different Church services with friends of different cultures .. it wasn't until I went away that I experienced any type of racial slurs or actions..

So I had optimum surroundings for "learning" that we are all the same.. some smarter than others was the only difference...

[hooky]

it's already been pointed out that Richards never said this. Regardless, I'm interested in hearing the basis for your arguement that the author should be ashamed.

Like I said, leaving out facts and variables that led to this whole sensitive thing. If the 'whites' would have been suppressed and had been a minority in the US instead the other ethnic groups, then it would be more accepted to have 'white pride' etc.

And now making the balance by saying 'if they can call names, I can also call people names' Richards claims equalty, but he leaves out how this unequal situation of calling names begun in the first place. Namely the history part and those who he describes belonging to minorities.

He is not a fool and should know these things himself. So my conclusion is 'purposefully leaving out variables, thus bending the arguments, for his own benefit in a speech where he supposedly was sued for making racist remarks?

[Demsey]

Sorry - self deleted content because I won't get dragged into this. Opinions and views are often misconstrued and twisted, so it's better to keeps one's thoughts to oneself.

Understand you Chief, but I'm gonna hang it out there. Fuggit.

It is a topic sure to invite much discussion, but it is not Michael Richards and he had nothing to do with this statement.

Check the link below and it will explain the origin of this.

Cheers,

mp

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/proudwhite.asp

Yes mp, I got as far as the first line of Andrew's post "I received an email today................." and went no further. And for everyone's infos Robin Williams doesn't hate all Mexican Immigrants or all Muslim Americans either............so if anyone went out and bought the entire "Mork and Mindy" DVD box set for some misplaced solidarity, because they are biggots too and want to support a phantom, well, enjoy the sitcom. At least.

I doubt I will read the rest of Andrew's post, not that I don't think it is an interesting debate worthy of *some* discussion to those predisposed, it's just that I know already I am a racist. And lets' define the term; the belief that one race, as a whole, is superior to another by character trait and natural capability.. I'm a first generation white European-American Brit who firmly believes the Black race is superior by biological planform despite "Thug Life" and social dogma. I live in Floriduh, and my exposure to the African is through Cuban immigration largely. I feel inept by their resolve, faith, physical stamina, soul, philosophy and loyalty to those whom they embrace, especially 'family'. In those areas I constantly feel as though I am "trying to catch up". As a WASP. I am comfortable in my skin and only want to bring my race a rung up the ladder. That is a racist statement(s). I still prefer Led Zeppelin over Sean Combs tho'. There's no escaping your roots.

[andreww]

Like I said, leaving out facts and variables that led to this whole sensitive thing. If the 'whites' would have been suppressed and had been a minority in the US instead the other ethnic groups, then it would be more accepted to have 'white pride' etc.

And now making the balance by saying 'if they can call names, I can also call people names' Richards claims equalty, but he leaves out how this unequal situation of calling names begun in the first place. Namely the history part and those who he describes belonging to minorities.

He is not a fool and should know these things himself. So my conclusion is 'purposefully leaving out variables, thus bending the arguments, for his own benefit in a speech where he supposedly was sued for making racist remarks?

Okay, nobody is claiming the blacks haven't suffered. Their ancestors had their roots, their land, and their belongings stolen from them. They were enslaved by whites, and were referred to as "nig_ers" (a derivative of the Portuguese word niger meaning "black".

I'm Polish. My grandparents had their property stolen from them when the nazis invaded Poland. They were enslaved in a concentration camps. My father was drafted at 16, leaving his homeland for good. We were called by a supposed racial slur, "pollack" (a derivative of a polish word meaning "Polish man".

Do you see the similarities? So why have I put this behind me? If someone calls me a pollack, I laugh. Do I hold a grudge against Germans? Certainly not, unless they happen to be 90 year old ex-nazis of course. I just wonder why I have been able to put this behind me, yet it is still such a touchy subject for the black community? Is it just a matter of the squeaky wheel getting the grease?

BTW, kudos to the RWG crowd for being able to see this for what it is, an intellectual conversation. I've seen threads like this get way out of hand on other boards.

[andreww]

Understand you Chief, but I'm gonna hang it out there. Fuggit.

Yes mp, I got as far as the first line of Andrew's post "I received an email today................." and went no further. And for everyone's infos Robin Williams doesn't hate all Mexican Immigrants or all Muslim Americans either............so if anyone went out and bought the entire "Mork and Mindy" DVD box set for some misplaced solidarity, because they are biggots too and want to support a phantom, well, enjoy the sitcom. At least.

I doubt I will read the rest of Andrew's post, not that I don't think it is an interesting debate worthy of *some* discussion to those predisposed, it's just that I know already I am a racist. And lets' define the term; the belief that one race, as a whole, is superior to another by character trait and natural capability.. I'm a first generation white European-American Brit who firmly believes the Black race is superior by biological planform despite "Thug Life" and social dogma. I live in Floriduh, and my exposure to the African is through Cuban immigration largely. I feel inept by their resolve, faith, physical stamina, soul, philosophy and loyalty to those whom they embrace, especially 'family'. In those areas I constantly feel as though I am "trying to catch up". As a WASP. I am comfortable in my skin and only want to bring my race a rung up the ladder. That is a racist statement(s). I still prefer Led Zeppelin over Sean Combs tho'. There's no escaping your roots.

Bravo Dempsy! Who was the genius in this world that decided that we all had to be created equal? There are obviously far more differences than the color of our skin!

[Jason M]

I am of Latino descent and grew up in what is generally considered "da hood" (using street lexicon). The difference is that I was one of those Latino kids whose dad actually raised him and taught him to be a man. So, yeah, I hung out in the streets and had my share of "run-ins", if you will. But, I also excelled in school and filled every honor roll and graduated at the top of my class all the way to graduate school.

I grew up in NYC and I find it to be one of the most racially polarized places on earth (and I've traveled abroad extensively). I realized early on that while a case can be made to spread the share of blame across society for the deeds of its children, it is ultimately the job of the family to raise a person of good moral standing; a person of good character. The people selling the drugs in my neighborhoods were not "white" (to use the common term). The men impregnating young teenage Latinas and then leaving them to raise the child on their own where also not "white". The idiots painting graffiti on our walls, urinating in the hallways of public housing buildings and stealing cars were also not "white". Heck, a "white" kid would not have spent any significant amount of time in my neighborhood anyway; it was inadvisable. The biggest deterrent to the forward movement of progress for most minorities is the lack of self-discipline and the inability to collectively take responsibility for our actions.

I learned, when I was just a teenager, that there was no such thing as a hyphenated nationality. I am an American, period. The fact that I speak, read and write the language of my ancestors has little to do with where my loyalties lie. I grew up, was educated, and succeeded in this country, not where my parents' parents were born. Those who consider themselves "white" in America are finding themselves in the middle of the collision of cultures in a country that developed a sense of multi-culturalism that became an identifying characteristic of what "America" was supposed to represent.

I do not understand how in the world we got to a place that in the search of racial equality (as propelled by the movements of the 1960s), we have arrived to a moment in time when fellow Americans are slowly marginalized for being "white". This division and antagonistic approach will only work to tear this country apart.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Jason M

[cornerstone]

but any color can be in the Miss America pageant.

Dude, they don't let Canadians take part, regardless of color.

Or dudes.

It's time to let go of the dream....

That email is the stream of consciousness of a complete imbecile, and a total racist. I could go through it point by point, but really - why bother. It's plainly obvious from start to finish - by addressing every other non-white race as "you" and typifying the actions of a few as the actions of every other person on planet earth because of the race that they're not, yeah, that's racist. And thick.

[Blerkselmans]

Sure it may be a matter of education as Lani states, but even someone uneducated could take some moments to actually think about what he is saying.

Personally I don't understand anyone who says he is proud of being black/red/white/green. I mean, having a color isn't so much to be proud of.

I make an exception for statements like this as an answer to oppression, where it merely is a statement to show that you will fight back.

I assume that when people say that they're proud of being <colorname> they think that this color stands for something.

So I would like to ask any forum member who also thinks he is proud for being <colorname> what this color stands for.

Andrew, as you started this thread (and yes, we already have a lot of posts without insults or other stupidities), if you want to say that you're proud of being white but you cannot do so because you don't want to be called a racist. What does being white represent? What does it stand for?

(try not to generalize)

[Johnkaz]

I do not understand how somebody that is from light to dark brown is called black, and somebody is pink is called white. Just imagine what a white person would look like, when the whites have two weeks in the sun to try and get some colour, and go brown we are still white? People refer to eastern Asians as yellow. Only the Simpsons and inhabitants of Springfield are yellow.

My conclusion is all of the terminology is flawed, we need new accurate terms for race. Or lets all be inhabitants of the earth, and stop getting so precious over an accident of birth.

[andreww]

That email is the stream of consciousness of a complete imbecile, and a total racist. I could go through it point by point, but really - why bother. It's plainly obvious from start to finish - by addressing every other non-white race as "you" and typifying the actions of a few as the actions of every other person on planet earth because of the race that they're not, yeah, that's racist. And thick.

No offense CS, but it's comments like that frustrate and anger people more than anything. IMO the author has carefully thought out his arguement and supported it with numerous instances of fact. Yet you don't like his phrasing so that automaticly deems the author to be "racist" and "thick" to boot.

Whenever I take part in a discussion like this, there invaribly comes a point where someone will say "you are racist". This hurts me because I don't hate anybody, especially based on the color of their skin. I will say that, and point out that I have black friends, as well as freinds of most other ethnic origins as well. The response is invaribly "lol, that is the typical response of most racists".

I'm sorry, but to accuse the author for being racist, then imply that the reasons for your arguement are SO obvious that if you can't see them, you are probably racist as well, is just another example of politically correct BS.

[KB]

Admirable the way this thread has run so far, one can only hope it continues the same way.

The best way to conquer racism?

Well take my family, I'm white my wife is black and our daughter is the most beautiful mix you could hope for.

Ken

[chudd]

It may be too early in my RWG life to get into such a polarizing conversation but i will give it a go.

I am Black.

I am well educated (world and classroom) and dress in a suit most days for work. i find that i have been treated a whole host of ways by people of all races including mine, not just whites, from being followed in stores, to being invited over for dinner with my wife, to being looked at as a sellout with my spensive suit and my proper english. The first is the due to the more prevalent view of black youth (thug, antagonistic etc.) and the second is due to the friendships i have made when people get to know and understand who i am, The third i believe is a deep-rooted sense of entitlement. But who is going to change these views? The white, Asian, or Latino people who are concerned about their families and their own lives? Or the Black man who has children with different women that he is not taking care of, perpetuating a cycle of dismal living, and hopes for a basketball or music career. The only thing that will change that overarching view of black youth, is when it stops being true.

I personally feel that the black community is holding on to racism as on would hold on to a crutch, even though the injury should have started to heal by now. The white people for the most part have moved on, sure there are pockets of resistance but i know black people who feel the same way about whites.

The black centric institutions that the author spoke of were necessary during the civil rights movement but useless in a society where acceptance of black people who have proven ability to perform on the level of their white peers is now becoming the norm.

White students now go to Morehouse, black kids any school in the US. It is changing fast and these crutches are no longer needed as much as they used to be.

I will not raise my kids believing they are owed anything by anybody!

So is he racist?

Hell Yeah, but he may be right.

[andreww]

Thanks for sharing that Chudd. I think you are probably right about using the issue as a crutch. That's what happens when you start giving ethnic groups "perks". In Canada we have problems with poverty and alcoholism among native peoples. We provide them with reserves to live on and give them tax free booze and cigarettes. Then we wonder why they drink all day and never acomplish anything.

I imagine it's the same type situation in the ghettos with the welfare programs. Once you are in it's hard to get out.