Is DSN really trustworthy?

[hooky]

They need to bleep. not just go higher. Many good hard mineral crystals also go in to orange, but never bleep.

And I think on average we just don't like your rough choice of words like "crook, stupid, fool" and your presentation like 'i know it all' specially in your first couple of post.

Enjoy the forum! btw, the pictures were nice, for the price the watch looked quite good. but the cg pin looks quite bad. I don't think you can even use the same pin to modd it, because it has too small diameter.

[TeeJay]

Can I see a naked bird in those flames or is it just wishful thinking.

[Drulee]

Please don't take me for a fool...

Well, when you act like one, it is easy to jump to that conclusion ...

[StormTooper4]

Basically until you've compared a DSN with another PAM rep its very difficult to explain the added value that you have from one of his watches. I agree that there is some questionabilty regarding the swissness of some of his movements but the overall quality of most of his reps is of an exceptional standard.

The crystal on yours looks good as does the CP, the dial is not to shabby either. But yours is a fantasy model there is no original version of this watch. The crown is painfully fugly and I disagree that the case back is OK , it again does not stack up, though its rarely seen it may not be an issue.

It may be the angle of the pictures but your bezel just doesn't look right. It seems to be very cone like and a tad out of proportion with the rest of the watch.

For the price its a reasonable start but if you were to invest in a DSN you would notice the difference.

Anyway I don't think DSN is trustworthy I think you'll find that's Andrew , DSN is actually Davidsen. Hope that clears things up

ST4

[coolfire]

There is still much to learn and I hope you don't make stupid comments like this anymore. Are you gonna tell the professors he/she has no more use of the library?

Stupid? Do your research on here before calling someone stupid, buddy...

Clearly you are incapable of reading my posting properly....

Oh yeah?? Calling DSN a crook is akin to calling ALL dealers on here crooks. Stick to KL reps then... Anyway, they all come from the land of supposed crooks - China.

Please don't take me for a fool...

There are a few ways to check, one of the quickest way is to just flick at the crystal with your finger nail. The mineral glass crystals will emit a high pitch 'clink' whereas a sapphire crystal makes a rather dull "thud". It is easy to try this out with loads of reps at the sellers booth.

The more scientific way is to use a crystal tester. I was wearing my genuine swiss diver and the dealer compared the different reading between his mineral glass reps and sapphire reps and my watch. The sapphire on my rep went to a higher level of red than my swiss diver (don't know what this mean - thicker?). The mineral glass went to the orange level.

The last way is to try the water drop test but this is not going to endear you to the dealer.

Wow... since you already know SO much & are SO knowledgeable, RWG doesn't seem to offer you anymore useful information, no?

I just like to reiterate the point that I think the prices charged for some reps are a lot more expensive than what it is suppose to be. BTW, getting a gen Pam - this has crossed my mind. The Pam111 costs RM14000 here which works out to be about US3800 at the exchange rate of 3.6. Is a rep worth 10% of a gen? I think not. The most is 5%.

The problem with getting a gen here is the darn waiting time and the whole country gets a handful a year!

The problem with getting reps is that you will be dealing with crooks. End of.

And quit trolling. From your very first post, you seemed to me like you have an agenda against DSN....and that you are so proud of getting much cheaper reps from your country. Why continue trolling here when you already possess such vast knowledge on reps?

End of rant.

[coolfire]

Basically until you've compared a DSN with another PAM rep its very difficult to explain the added value that you have from one of his watches. I agree that there is some questionabilty regarding the swissness of some of his movements but the overall quality of most of his reps is of an exceptional standard.

The crystal on yours looks good as does the CP, the dial is not to shabby either. But yours is a fantasy model there is no original version of this watch. The crown is painfully fugly and I disagree that the case back is OK , it again does not stack up, though its rarely seen it may not be an issue.

It may be the angle of the pictures but your bezel just doesn't look right. It seems to be very cone like and a tad out of proportion with the rest of the watch.

For the price its a reasonable start but if you were to invest in a DSN you would notice the difference.

Anyway I don't think DSN is trustworthy I think you'll find that's Andrew , DSN is actually Davidsen. Hope that clears things up

ST4

Case seems like a new Helenarou, as is with the bezel lip. Maybe from a bag of parts.

[Rolexfinder]

I am not sure whether what judge you use to compare the watch you bought from local market with the one you only saw in the pics, mate.

To be positive, why dont you buy one from DSN and compare it by yourself? If his work did not meet what he claimed in his sale post, you would feel free to complain and resell it back on our forum. For me, DSN's work does not the perfect one without modification but, if you need the really close one with superior quality, this is your choice to start with.

Anyway, nice to meet you here and welcome to replica world.

Cheers,

Paul

[fakemaster]

Ok professor.

DSN is a crook, I am stupid, coolfire is illiterate. and we all pay too much for our watches than you.

I reiterate my point. You don't need us.

[mengshi]

Basically until you've compared a DSN with another PAM rep its very difficult to explain the added value that you have from one of his watches. I agree that there is some questionabilty regarding the swissness of some of his movements but the overall quality of most of his reps is of an exceptional standard.

The crystal on yours looks good as does the CP, the dial is not to shabby either. But yours is a fantasy model there is no original version of this watch. The crown is painfully fugly and I disagree that the case back is OK , it again does not stack up, though its rarely seen it may not be an issue.

It may be the angle of the pictures but your bezel just doesn't look right. It seems to be very cone like and a tad out of proportion with the rest of the watch.

For the price its a reasonable start but if you were to invest in a DSN you would notice the difference.

Anyway I don't think DSN is trustworthy I think you'll find that's Andrew , DSN is actually Davidsen. Hope that clears things up

ST4

Very sharp of you to note that it is a fantasy model - just waiting for it to become not a fantasy. Ha ha.

I will need side by side comparison of the bezels as I have not paid attention to this.

The case back is rather generic and does not have serial numbers. Is there such a rep out there that actually replicate the actual correct model number and serial number ? (eg 009/1000).

Is there a detailed review and comparison of his reps? I have only seen the pictures he posted of his reps on one of the sites (can't recall which). The CP were all done right but not sure about the CG. To see any difference, there would need to be a side by side comparison with a gen and a typical similar rep.

Edited December 22, 2009 by mengshi

[mengshi]

It may be the angle of the pictures but your bezel just doesn't look right. It seems to be very cone like and a tad out of proportion with the rest of the watch.

Had another look at the pictures. I think it is the macro mode on my digicam (non-slr) that gave the bezel or whole watch a slight bulging look. (Kinda like the pics on Jackson Tse site).

[PeteM]

Very sharp of you to note that it is a fantasy model - just waiting for it to become not a fantasy. Ha ha.

I will need side by side comparison of the bezels as I have not paid attention to this.

The case back is rather generic and does not have serial numbers. Is there such a rep out there that actually replicate the actual correct model number and serial number ? (eg 009/1000).

Is there a detailed review and comparison of his reps? I have only seen the pictures he posted of his reps on one of the sites (can't recall which). The CP were all done right but not sure about the CG. To see any difference, there would need to be a side by side comparison with a gen and a typical similar rep.

I have seen a number of reviews on other forums, looking at dials, watches, versus gens and versus other modders. So they are out there usually they are pinned threads so easily viewable. Also there are some pictorial reviews within the forums looking at comparisons of EL, LH DSN CG's ,CB's etc.

Given the content of your first post I would of thought you might of already of looked at these. But if you have a look round the info is out there mate.

[fishgodeep]

Is DSN really trustworthy - yes 100% from my experience.

He isn't 100% on QC 100% of the time and usually forgets something from my parts orders but to call him a crook simply becuase he charges more for an item than a market seller is not reasonable or accurate. I don't think he'd be welcome anywhere if that was really the case.

You might as well say Panerai are crooks for selling a watch at 10-15 times the actual cost it does to make them using the same reasoning.

As with a Gen Panerai it's all about the brand and kudos that comes with it , DSN is a little sub brand within this hobby - you may not buy into his brand but you have the choice to vote wih your wallet as does everyone else.

I suggest that's why he's still here after all these years

Merry Christmas

FGD

[bollobandit]

HELL YES!!!

[Drulee]

Well said FGD.

And Merry Christmas to all, yes even the OP

[Eton]

I just received my DSN 202a today in the mail, this is the second purchase I have made through DSN, and he is a class act. After countless hours of research, investigations, and purchases, I trust him and will continue to purchase from him. Well said FGD!!!

Merry Christmas!

[coolfire]

I just received my DSN 202a today in the mail, this is the second purchase I have made through DSN, and he is a class act. After countless hours of research, investigations, and purchases, I trust him and will continue to purchase from him. Well said FGD!!!

Merry Christmas!

Now let's see some PAM porn!

[siesta181]

Its a free economy. Not happy with price. Don't buy, for we all know that all swan necks are not 100% Swiss. The only swan-necks that are Swiss comes from Panerai. DSN is not claiming anything different from what the other dealers are claiming. So he is not a crook by my standards. If he is he would have been driven out of the forums.

DSN might miss out a certain part now and then but that's not really the trait of a crook, its just being human.

[lanikai]

I'm revisiting this thread because I remembered something that should be noted.. I sent my 6497 DSN movement along with my 202A project and was informed that it was an ETA 6497 and not an Asian clone.. my point "was" if it were not an eta I wasn't going to have it serviced..

which brings me to look at this thread again.. and viewing the OP's claimed Ti .. I question the validity of the Pam 005 in the OP's post with pics of his Rep. being a titanium case. .. reason being,is..... a member asked me to oxidize his Ti case a couple of years ago.. and the only parts on the case that would oxidize was the pushers.. ergo the case was not Ti at all but aluminum.. it was not by one of our dealers..and was passed off as Ti.

so .."IF".. the OP's rep is actually not Ti... that would be rather funny.. accusing one of our dealers to be somewhat dishonest and having bought a fake Ti "replication",..and claiming that we pay too much for reps.. the colour of the metal does not appear to me anyway.... to be Ti..in the OP's pics..

Too funny..

AC/Lani

[mengshi]

I'm revisiting this thread because I remembered something that should be noted.. I sent my 6497 DSN movement along with my 202A project and was informed that it was an ETA 6497 and not an Asian clone.. my point "was" if it were not an eta I wasn't going to have it serviced..

which brings me to look at this thread again.. and viewing the OP's claimed Ti .. I question the validity of the Pam 005 in the OP's post with pics of his Rep. being a titanium case. .. reason being,is..... a member asked me to oxidize his Ti case a couple of years ago.. and the only parts on the case that would oxidize was the pushers.. ergo the case was not Ti at all but aluminum.. it was not by one of our dealers..and was passed off as Ti.

so .."IF".. the OP's rep is actually not Ti... that would be rather funny.. accusing one of our dealers to be somewhat dishonest and having bought a fake Ti "replication",..and claiming that we pay too much for reps.. the colour of the metal does not appear to me anyway.... to be Ti..in the OP's pics..

Too funny..

AC/Lani

You have a really strange way of justifying things which is not rational at all...

Here is my rational take. The rep I got is most likely a so called 'cartel' product. How many cartel Pam rep do you know that are actually made of aluminium? I know of none. I bet the case I got was probably from the same maker who made Getat, JacksonTse and Helenarou cases and I don't see them selling aluminium cases or anyone accusing them of doing so. Even the brushed SS case which most resemble aluminium in texture are never called aluminum let alone the Ti case which has a different feel and color tone. It IS fantasy model and not Pam005 as another poster has correctly pointed out and I purposely went for it

BTW, does your 6497 have a swan neck? If it does, I may actually have the last laugh. If it doesn't, it is a US$134 product at Ofrei.

Edited December 24, 2009 by mengshi

[PeteM]

Getting back to your original post mate.

The majority view is DSN is not a crook. Now move on and enjoy your watch.

Isnt it Rationale?

[lanikai]

You have a really strange way of justifying things which is not rational at all...

Here is my rational take. The rep I got is most likely a so called 'cartel' product. How many cartel Pam rep do you know that are actually made of aluminium? I know of none. I bet the case I got was probably from the same maker who made Getat, JacksonTse and Helenarou cases and I don't see them selling aluminium cases or anyone accusing them of doing so. Even the brushed SS case which most resemble aluminium in texture are never called aluminum let alone the Ti case which has a different feel and color tone. It IS fantasy model and not Pam005 as another poster has correctly pointed out and I purposely went for it

BTW, does your 6497 have a swan neck? If it does, I may actually have the last laugh. If it doesn't, it is a US$134 product at Ofrei.

It seems the burden of proof is on you,.. because the verification of my movement comes from someone far more knowledgeable than you or I, and it definitely did not come from Ofrei.. so laugh if you choose .. but you'll be doing it at your own expense.. which in and of itself is not a bad thing considering the source..

there's only one easy way to tell if yours is aluminum .. try oxidizing it..as none of the dealers Ti looks like the genuine anyway..

bottom line, you've come hear "trying" (and that is the buzz word in your statements) to discredit a proven commodity.. as I think the yeh's out weigh your "opinion" ..

and since we are very happy with our dealers here.. it may be time to peddle your expertise on another topic

Just read the comments on this thread..

and most importantly you have zero experience dealing and receiving any items for the dealer you question..

nuff said~

L

[mengshi]

It seems the burden of proof is on you,.. because the verification of my movement comes from someone far more knowledgeable than you or I, and it definitely did not come from Ofrei.. so laugh if you choose .. but you'll be doing it at your own expense.. which in and of itself is not a bad thing considering the source..

there's only one easy way to tell if yours is aluminum .. try oxidizing it..as none of the dealers Ti looks like the genuine anyway..

bottom line, you've come hear "trying" (and that is the buzz word in your statements) to discredit a proven commodity.. as I think the yeh's out weigh your "opinion" ..

and since we are very happy with our dealers here.. it may be time to peddle your expertise on another topic

Just read the comments on this thread..

and most importantly you have zero experience dealing and receiving any items for the dealer you question..

nuff said~

L

So your 6497 has a swan neck? How can the burden of proof be on me when I have no physical contact with your watch and you're the one stating yours has a genuine movement? I don't see the logic. Also, how can it be on my expense when I'm haven't spent the kind of money he charges for his watches?

There are many more Ti owners here who certainly have bought a 'cartel' case. I'm certain mine is a Ti. Those who are not certain may try scratching and oxidising theirs.

I have said several times in my previous posts already regarding DSN, namely:

1) He is making false claims about the source of his 'swiss' movement but somehow this is 'overlooked' as OK. He may or may not have put genuine ETA in his special custom made models but the photos he put up showing his "Swiss" movement are showing the same Asian 6497 with the PANERAIPANERAI engravings or the other one with the engraved pattern.

2) His prices are way too much for something whose value does not increase.

3) I NEVER say he'll take your money and run

4) As you have indicated yourself above, somehow his 2 rights do make a wrong OK!

End of the day, it is still a 'market economy' as he'll charge whatever the market is willing to accept, like one of the rep watches he sells for US$820!

I once read an interview with a CEO of a luxury watch company who stated that there is really nothing rational about buying a 100,000 dollars watch. It seems this is happening in the rep world as well!

Another thing I read is that as a rough 'rule of thumb', a Swiss watchmaking company gets about 1/3 the selling price of the watch at the dealer. This accounts for the advertisement, marketing, sponsoring etc etc. Now, lets say a gen Pam111 is US$ 3800. 1/3 would be about US$1266. If you imagine buying from DSN as buying directly from the watchmaker, and at US$820, he is almost charging the same price as a genuine item, all this without the quality control, water resistance, inherent value etc. This boggles the mind and you don't even get the nice box.

Edited December 25, 2009 by mengshi

[unregistered]

I have said several times in my previous posts already regarding DSN, namely:

1) He is making false claims about the source of his 'swiss' movement but somehow this is 'overlooked' as OK. He may or may not have put genuine ETA in his special custom made models but the photos he put up showing his "Swiss" movement are showing the same Asian 6497 with the PANERAIPANERAI engravings or the other one with the engraved pattern.

2) His prices are way too much for something whose value does not increase.

3) I NEVER say he'll take your money and run

4) As you have indicated yourself above, somehow his 2 rights do make a wrong OK!

I'm just going to stick to your queries even though personally I feel your style of posting and questions extremely aggressive and very unreceptive to comments, but here are my answers which I feel will undoubtedly get shot down by yours truly, but they are what I know them to be since I started collecting PAM reps about 3 years ago.

DSN has been around for sometime and all who are into PAMs have used him at some point or another for parts or whole watches. I generally get parts from him, but have on several occasions gotten whole watches, both "Swiss" and "Asian" movements from him. He differs from the standard cartel watches due to the pieces he has, the casesets, crowns, crownguards are either better or worst off than Cartel pieces, depending on model so it really boils down to individual models. There are a plethora or comparison reviews for his pieces, several in my sig.

1) To address your first question, we need to discuss the history of replica PAM movements, I'll stick to primarily the current style of PAM movements and ignore the OP II versions and only deal with the OP XI ones, with either the stamped PANERAI bridges or engraved Cotes de Geneve ones.

Essentially, the OP XI movements back in 2007 came in two forms, either swiss or asian. The swiss could not be called pure swiss movements but more "hybrid" versions whereby the baseplate, gears, hairspring and everything else associated with the movement were swiss except the overhead bridges. These were all based on the easily available ETA 6497-1

A swiss based asian bridged 6497-1

Easiest tells were the novidiac shock system in the escapement, the larger teeth in the main gear wheel which denotes the low beat 17k/bph movement and at that time, ETA stamp just under the balance wheel. And the three straight spokes for the balance wheel.

The asian 6497s at that time also were low beat but used the incabloc style shock system instead but had not ETA stamp and overall, their finishing was less than spectacular.

Around October of that year a new series of Asian movements started appearing, these were high beat 21,600bph movements with incabloc shock systems and better finishing and servicing, i.e. these were coming out of the factories lubed and working very well. Several of the more well known modders like Vacc and Flav, all chimed in and said the newer 6497 model was superior to the "swiss" engined movements out there.

Way to spot them was as I mentioned above, the smaller and increased number of gearing teeth and the incabloc escapement. This more closely resembles the 6497-2 movement the gen OP XI utilises with soprod bridges. Also, the spokes on the balance wheel flared out like the gen as they came closer to the outer wheel.

I show two of such movements above, but the one on the right can only be had from another dealer from RG. Its still a base asian movement, but all the gears are highly polished, the main plates white gold plated and the incabloc has the correct "Y" cut in it as per gen.

The swiss movements never changed and still utilised the older novadiac shock system.

So yes, you are correct in saying that DSNs is "wrong" in stating he is using swiss movements, cause they are not PURE swiss movements. But they are generally swiss based parts in there except for the main plate bridges.

Above is a verified swiss based 6497-1 from DSN.

There are many many more differences between movements, just look at this movement quiz put together by Druhlee on the older OPII movement which contains pics of both gen and rep movements and you'll see the length and breadth of issues that can cloud this discussion, especially in hybrid movements.

2) As for prices, it all depends on what you're willing to pay. Little Hero charges $1200 for one of his 111/112/219 creations. Is it worth it? To most no. Yet I own one. Is it perfect? No, there are flaws as I identified in my thread. Am i happy? Very much so.

Is DSN worth the money versus cartel? In most cases, yes. Cartel from online (and I am not talking about your street side haggling with dealers, I live in Singapore and go to Malaysia often, yes you can get superreps as well at lower prices, but for the general public on these boards, they have no such access, so we'll compare apples to apples here if you don't mind). From a Cartel based website, a normal asian high beat 111H would cost $278+shipping thereabouts. DSNs would cost at last check, $340 with asian movement, or $420 with swiss movement including shipping. The differences? Beefier case, slightly thicker crown (though incorrectly beveled), slightly better CGs, thicker in his current series, and this is the clincher that most people go for, better dials and superlume on the numerals. It's a Panerai, and lume is in its blood. His talk about pressure testing his watches etc etc, I'll take that with a pinch of salt, not cause I don't believe he wouldn't do it, just that it sounds like marketing. But point for point, there are a multitude of differences between a DSN watch and a Cartel watch which in some cases can be shown to be qualitatively better and warrant the price difference.

You mentioned his $800 watch, that is using a genuine ETA/SOPROD movement in there, that is why the price jump (ok fine, with asian rotor to have it engraved). A little research first before throwing numbers around.

So all this is subjective. You've shown you had an issue with his prices. Fine.

I've shown that in some cases they are justified versus normally available Cartel watches.

I hope this brings the end to this thread.

Oh and if you have such an issue with DSN, start up a thread in the Rolex or Omega area lamblasting the cartel on their verified genuine swiss 2824 movements, when everyone knows these are no longer the case. Now that is downright false advertising

Merry Christmas all!

Edited December 25, 2009 by unregistered

[lanikai]

So your 6497 has a swan neck? How can the burden of proof be on me when I have no physical contact with your watch and you're the one stating yours has a genuine movement? I don't see the logic. Also, how can it be on my expense when I'm haven't spent the kind of money he charges for his watches?

You just said it.. you have no physiclal contact with my watch .. and it has been verified for my satisfaction as ETA.. that is E-T-A.. plain and simply..

unregistered is well versed in Panerai.. more than I.. so best let it be..

I think I will stick with our proven experts and disregard your so called input and just mark it down to another troll trying to make a name for himself without the guns..

Cheers

L

[PeteM]

Thanks Lani

If nothing else I have learnt something from this and specifically your posts. I appreciate the time you took to identify the basic differences and general anomilies

Cheers mate