Daytona stainless-steel El Primero sec @ 9 rep!

[Dizzy]

No... there isnt one...

but why not?

Isnt there a movement (even a hand wind like a v23) that has the same subdial spacing as the El Primero???

There has to be something? What about that Lemania handwind? Is the subdial spacing correct?

I REALLY want to build a sec@9 daytona... its all out there.. just need to build it, but the movement and case are crazy expensive!

I dont want to spend $4000 building one. The other option is buying a gen two-tone, swapping the pushers and bezel for aftermarket... put on a gen 24-703 and a gen dial, and a 93150 bracelet. Then you can sell off the gold bezel, dial and bracelet for enough for most of the parts needed and all you would need would be a nice gen dial and hand set. You could prob do it this way for about the same price you paid for the two-tone originally, provided you do the work yourself.... I figure you can build one that way for about $6500... OR buy a gen stainless as they are down to $8500-9000 on ebay now, but laying out $9000 on a daytona isnt going to happen anytime soon. hhhmmmm

Any thoughts?

Dizz

[The Red Baron]

The 16520s (El Premiros) are down to $8-9k now? Wow - I'd say if thats your watch, save up for the gen! I looked at many franken options for my newer Daytona that I wanted and just decided that buying a gen 116520 was much better off in the long run. Now for my 6263 I went a franken rep option through Spinmaster - only way to go as I don't have $40k to drop on one of them haha.

[southcoast68]

Lemania like the Seagull ST-19 venus copy would still have subdials spacing that is too far apart for it to look right. Now there are reps of the Omega Planet Ocean chronograph and the Zenith Defy Chronographs that use the newer A7750 that has closer subdial spacing. Why this has not been adapted for use in a decent Daytona rep, well, I'm still waiting for an answer on that one .

Cheers

[marcoxxx1984]

+1

[LeSentier]

+1

[marcoxxx1984]

C'mon guys, we have to' make something!!

Let's create a group of buyers and contact one dealer! He/she will make a lot of money!!!

[The Red Baron]

Dizz, I was looking into this very project a few months back and there was some site out there I'm sure everyone is familiar with (I'm forgetting it at the moment) where, if you supply them with a gen El Premiro 400 movement (in my case, I was going to take it out of my Ebel 1911), they build you a complete 16520 with pretty much everything gen (except the case body itself, which is no big deal) and accurate movement markings for about $3,500. But yea, if you don't have the movement you're probably looking at another $500-$1k.

[By-Tor]

I seriously doubt the dealers have much influence on the factories. Otherwise they'd rep the 1675 and 42mm PO too. We all know those would be mega sellers here.

Maybe rep community's (even when all 6-7? forums put together) buying volume isn't worth the effort.

I once asked Joshua about creating a 21J seconds at '6 Daytona, with "killed" stopwatch and told him that it'd sell well. Joshua was very straightforward and said that the factories don't care because the timebomb piece of sh*t sells thousands every week.

[freddy333]

By-Tor - I have suggested this previously, but I really think we should formally invite DW to become affiliated with RWG in a more direct form. I would rather not go into too many details publicly, but if you are interested, PM me.

[automatico]

"I once asked Joshua about creating a 21J seconds at '6 Daytona, with "killed" stopwatch and told him that it'd sell well. Joshua was very straightforward and said that the factories don't care because the timebomb piece of sh*t sells thousands every week."

I have frozen the sweep second (center timing) hand along with the subdial hands at 3 and 9 on a few 21 jewel DG powered replicas and they all worked fine. I posted a while back how I did it, but no one reads my posts...

I finally wore one of the converted Daytonas every day for a week to see how it would do. It kept time within 10 to 15 seconds a day, did not run down, and nothing fell off.

Pretty good for a watch I worked on.

It takes a couple hours to do the job and at least twice as long if I have to take the movement apart and clean it. Since the DG has an offset sweep second hand drive, it is relatively easy to freeze the center sweep hand. You can not tell the movement has been modified without removing the winding rotor and autowind/wheel train plate. They are a hassle to work on and do not go together very easily.

I have fixed a lot of 'em with a 2 pound hammer.

I would rather eat a live bat than work on DG/NN movements.

[By-Tor]

@automatico: Yes, the 21J version with frozen stopwatch would be an easy and reliable solution. But I meant that factories don't care about our wishes as the seconds at 6 version sells so much.

@Freddy: Sent you a pm.

Personally, I've never been a big fan of the Daytona (any model) for some reason. I have tried on the gen and I was completely underwhelmed. But then again it's like Porsche 911... even if it's not quite for you, you still can't argue against one of the biggest classics ever. I'd really love to see so many of our members happy though.

[Dizzy]

The biggest issue is finding the proper case set, and when you do find one, they are rediculously expensive. Im sure if DW can make a 6263 case to fit a v72 then why cant they make a reasonably priced 16520 case set to fit an El Primero? The movements are pretty easy to find. I would like to get hold of the MBW daytona case but they are as rare as Unicorns and for some reason they cost thousands of dollars.

@Freddy - You should speak to DW about a 16520 case set. Maybe he can figure out a solution for us. I'd buy a 16520 case right now if they were the same price as the Yuki and DW cases.

There has to be a way to build a 16520 for the same price as a V72 powered 6263.

dizz

[freddy333]

@Freddy - You should speak to DW about a 16520 case set. Maybe he can figure out a solution for us. I'd buy a 16520 case right now if they were the same price as the Yuki and DW cases.

There has to be a way to build a 16520 for the same price as a V72 powered 6263.

The issue has been under discussion for some time (along with some other interesting ideas) & there may be more to report in the near future.

[Dizzy]

Tell him we need a good 9315 and a good 93150 also!

[marcoxxx1984]

I fully agree with this project to ask DW to consider a 16520... Even with Spinmaster

[southcoast68]

I have been on the soap box for this topic for a while, and I won't repeat what I have already said on the topic, but I still don't see the problem with the rep factories doing it. If the factories don't care in the fact that they sell thousands of the seconds at 6 version, even though it is crap, then I can understand the attitude they have in creating a good seconds at 9 version. But, let's take a look at what we already know;

a. the A7750 with seconds at 9 in a Daytona configuration has been proven to be a good movement, especially if kept up with regular service, without the seconds at 6 conversion it's much more reliable.

b. the A7750 already has been used in countless versions of the Daytona, and the most current versions visually look fantastic, therefore, case parts, dials, hands, etc. are already being manufactured to fit this movement.

c. the more recent version of the A7750 with seconds at 9 and closer sub-dial spacing is already being used in the Zeinth Defy chrono rep which is a rep of a gen that carries the ZENITH EL PRIMERO MOVEMENT, this movement has also been used in a couple of the more recent Omega chrono reps, and has been torn down and reviewed by Fransisco and has been found to be a better made movement using actual jewels at critical points.

d. so they have all the parts for the cases, a rep of the El Primero movement which is a modified A7750 that will fit the cases, and they have the ability to execute dials that are scary close to the genuine. Sounds like they already have the recipe and ingredients, whats the holdup??

One of the tells of a Daytona rep, for me, is the case thickness and the resulting rep from already produced components will yield a Daytona rep that is too thick like the current ones, however, its still possible to bring this to market, and folks will buy it. If we are all ok with putting up with multiple versions of each new rep introduced, I don't see why the rep factories would loose out on this investment. At lease the poor folks like me could finally get a great looking modern style Daytona with a movement that should hold up a lot better than what we currently get for a fraction of what a franken gets built for. If the members here in this forum can build world class projects without having a factory full of parts and machinery at their disposal, then the rep producers can certainly do it, they are just waiting for the right time to produce it and justify charging us double for it.

Having folks like Spinmaster and DW look into producing these projects is indeed a god send since it will put the ability for more folks in the hobby to realize their project for less money and I hope it comes to fruition even though I have not a penny to spend on a watch these days, I live vicariously through all you folks.

Did I just say I was not going to repeat everything I already said, oh well.....

Cheers everyone

[marcoxxx1984]

Holy words southcost68!!!

[freddy333]

By-Tor's explanation is spot-on. Rep collectors (us) are a very small part of the overall rep business & watches powered by the problematic secs @ 6 Asian 7750 sell very well internationally. So there is little impetus for the factories to expend the time/money required to properly address its inherent design problems. But for those who are adamant on having an accurate/reliable modern Daytona, read this (you may need to research the current website locations as they have changed since this article was posted) & this.

[marcoxxx1984]

Well... My ideas Are a little bit confuse... Sometimes (see josh 1655 dial problem that has been corrected in a few weeks, or the new AP ROO built from factories with directives from our forum members) And sometimes not...

We Can only wait for DW And Spin... If they decide to help us...

[Dizzy]

Thats good info 68.... Well if we take the old thin case and mod it a little, and install this new closer subdial A7750... then all we need is a proper dial or a used gen dial and we have all the ingredients more or less??

[southcoast68]

Thats good info 68.... Well if we take the old thin case and mod it a little, and install this new closer subdial A7750... then all we need is a proper dial or a used gen dial and we have all the ingredients more or less??

That's what I'm thinking. If I had any money to do this, I would try the following;

a. buy on of these

http://www.1-pc8838.com/omse01021-planet-ocean-chrono-ssss-blkbezorg-7750-p-5858.html

or this

http://www.1-pc8838.com/zn00101-defy-extreme-dlcru-white-asia-7750-28800-p-7408.html

b. buy one of these (and hope I actually do get this case style)

http://www.kingshowbox.com/goods.php?id=3924

c. buy the dial (this is the expensive part, and I did have an aftermarket dial and decided

to sell it a few months back)

Now, I'd have to prep the movement by removing the date wheel and mechanism since the Daytona does not need it, but I would hope that at that point, I could install the dial, swap the hands and case from the rep and have a decent seconds at 9 Daytona with proper subdial spacing. Of course, I would have to be lucky in the following points;

1. The A7750 rep movement from the Zenith/Omega which is advertised to have subdial spacing same as El Primero actually does have said subdail spacing.

2. The dial would physically fit the case without being too small or way too big.

3. The hands from the rep Daytona would actually fit the rep movement from the Zenith/Omega (China parts are known to be of the non-standard status most of the time).

4. The distance from the dial face to the stem is the same on both A7750 movements after the date mechanism is removed from the Zenith one making the case tube to stem alignment work.

At the end of the day, I still would be spending a good bit for parts that may need extensive modding to fit together if they can be fitted together at all. About $300 a peice for the two reps and about a grand for the dial (or a few hundred anyway for an aftermarket, if anybody would sell me one). I suppose Phong or NDTrading may be able to source a dial, but it still would cost.

I am sure everyone is tired of hearing me cry baby over this issue by now, but consider the following. If I could conceivably do this on my bench at home and come up with something feasible, wouldn't it be that much easier for a rep producer, with access to all the mentioned parts, do the same? We have seen the rep factories turn out copies of the DSSD and the ProPlof, both are watches that have very proprietary designs that do not transfer to make other rep models, then why is it such a chore for them to do this with parts they already produce? They will probably have to do the dial design from scratch, but they all do dials so well these days, I would not think that be a major hurdle.

As far as what we want as collectors not being a blip on the rep makers radar, I do feel that some of our input they do go with eventually. If they truly did not care, would we see the recently upgraded DRSDs and Subs that have better pearls, proper case markings, etc.? Would we be seeing Josh putting R and D into the vintage Explorer II, even down to the folded link bracelet, right size hands and dial markers that come to the edge of the rehaut?

Oh well, I'll let this drop (as applause is heard from the crowd..), but I do like the debate on this, and maybe one day we will see either a cool franken kit to emerge, or a full on rep come to market.

Ciao

[Guest Sql_pl]

A small OT but guys, I really cannot believe this "rep forums are only a small percentage of rep sales" bulls#it.... then how come so often we see we indeed have some influence and some things get corrected... and do you ever see our high end reps being distributed anywhere in the streets?

As many of you know I am a huge Daytona fan and would love to see a great rep of a 16520.

I have already tried the Franken-16520 route with this piece:

Invested $6.5k in it, gen everything apart from movement that was NOS Ebel 134. Hands did not fit and after a lot of frustration I let it go.

Borrowed my friend's gen 16520 a few times:

And ended up with this gen 116520:

But like I said... give me an opportunity to get a nice 16520 rep that is believably thin and has nice subdiial placement and I am in

[andygt]

Funny timing I guess but coincidentally just yesterday I had bad news from Domi with regards to doing as Dizzy suggested.

I had sourced the closer subdial movement and the el primero dial fits perfectly bar the feet so had sent to domi to assemble in an old secs at 6 case.

Domi mailed me yesterday and told me the movement is too high by 1mm and consequently the stem and pushers don't line up with the case. Not sure if there is any variation in cases for the 7750 version but this was an old style one with too much case between bezel and crown.

Any suggestions to get this project back on track would be appreciated

[Guest Sql_pl]

Still the biggest issue is bezel angle... look how flat it is in genuine Daytona:

[freddy333]

The bezel angle/height is an issue, but I think the most obvious flaw (assuming you have 1 of the older low-profile mid-case Daytonas) is the height of the caseback, which is taller than the gen to allow the additional space required by the 7750 (the gen 4130 is a shallower movement, so the caseback is nearly flat). The difference in casebacks is similar to the difference between DW's V72 caseback & his 7750 caseback - the shallower V72 is shaped similar to the modern gen Daytona casebacks.

The bezel angle/height is an issue, but I think the most obvious flaw (assuming you have 1 of the older low-profile mid-case Daytonas) is the height of the caseback, which is taller than the gen to allow the additional space required by the 7750 (the gen 4130 is a shallower movement, so the caseback is nearly flat). The difference in casebacks is similar to the difference between DW's V72 caseback & his 7750 caseback - the shallower V72 is shaped similar to the modern gen Daytona casebacks. If it were not for the fact that the modern Daytona case is wider than the vintage cases, I would remove the rotor on my 7750 & fit 1 of DW's V72 casebacks on my 116520. And if anyone knows of a source for the correct (shallow) caseback for a modern Daytona, please let me know.