MY 1665 Project

[panerai153]

Ever since I got rid of my MBW 1665 several years ago, I have wanted another SD. I got in the WM9 SD project line at the "Paid in full price" a year ago this week. From all indications, this project is either dead or so delayed we will all be old or dead before we get a watch.I bought a cheap SD 16600 a few months ago, sort of an interim while waiting for the WM9 SD. long story short, It really didn't set any bells to ringing. Nice watch, kept god time, but it wasn't what I was looking for.

Fast forward a couple of months, I put a WTB post in the forum for an MBW 1665. I got a PM from a member who had one, then decided he wasn't into reps and wanted to get rid if it. Actually to read his PM, it sort of sounded like he felt it was contaminating his watch box! At any rate, he sold it to me at and incredibly low price. He had installed a genuine T-39 Superdome, and the previous owner had drilled the lug holes and installed a genuine Crown/tube. So here I have a pretty nice 1665, with a fair amount of the expensive stuff (So far!) done. I have gotten a genuine insert and genuine tritium pearl as well.

Now here is my dilemma. i have basically two avenues at this point.The first is to do a minimum of modding which would consist of a 2846-2 movement and a silver flat top 3's datewheel (which to this point has been "unobtanium") I have gotten a white overlay and a silver overlay, however the person who will be doing all my modding has in the past not wanted to use and overlay datewheel, citing the problems with the datewheel rubbing and hanging up. I can appreciate his concern, and I don't want to create more problems. So at this point, unless a silver datewheel suddenly becomes available, I will have to use the stock datewheel, which is nice, but not correct in the boldness of the numbers. I also have the opportunity to buy a better dial, supposedly it is as perfect as you can get in and aftermarket DRSD dial. This particular dial is set up for a genuine movement however and would require the dial feet to be amputated.

My second choice is to go all out on this one, try to find a Rolex 1570 movement, use the better dial as it is (Correct dial feet placement) , find some good aftermarket Rolex hands and put together essentially a Super Franken.While I'm leaning toward the second choice at the present time, I'm still a little concerned about the cost/benefit ratio here. My biggest concern is not the initial cost which I can cover by selling several seldom worn watches. What concerns me is the problems I have seen that other members encounter when trying to sell their super franken watches. It seems like their is a price ceiling for reps somewhere around 500-600 USD. Anything above that eliminates a huge number of potential buyers. Several of our members here have had to resort to parting out their watches to recoup most of their investment. I'm not going through all this trouble just to build and sell, but one never knows what their economic circumstances will be in the future. and I would hate to have a watch that I had around 2-2.5k in and not be able to sell it if I had to.

I also have genuine 93150 bracelet and and offer for a set of 585 end links

I have had several offers of help from members here, which I sincerely appreciate. i welcome any comments either way as to this project. If you have parts I might be able to use, shoot me a PM.

Here is the 1665 as a "work in progress"

[freddy333]

I always find it difficult, at best, to recommend a direction for others, but I went the 1575-powered franken route with my DRSD. Today, the only non gen parts are the dial & original MBW mid-case. Expensive? Yes. But the expense fit within my self-imposed rule of only spending more than $1,000 on a watch when the gen would cost at least 20 times what I put into it. In this case, a gen DRSD in comparable condition would easily exceed $50k, so I think the money I put into the project fit this rule nicely. And I also only ever build frankens that I plan to keep & I think that is a good rule for others to follow, because, as you say, you are not likely to get back what you put in when it comes to most frankens. However, keep in mind that if you do go with a gen movement, you can always part the watch out & vintage Rolex parts are nearly like gold.

Having said all that, a standard gen 1665 can be had for $12-$15k, so, following my own rule, I would go with the gen before I would spend more than a grand building a franken non-double-red 1665.

[praetor]

assuming that you do pick the first option, using a stock datewheel, doesn't that datewheel have an overlay over it which you can peel off? I mean, the 2846 movement doesn't have correct window placement to begin with right?

Anyways,there are no aftermarket DRSD dials that are even close to being decent (IMHO). And 90% of them are MK4, which I hate. I think you should go gen GWSD dial route but that's just my opinion.

[panerai153]

assuming that you do pick the first option, using a stock datewheel, doesn't that datewheel have an overlay over it which you can peel off? I mean, the 2846 movement doesn't have correct window placement to begin with right?

Anyways,there are no aftermarket DRSD dials that are even close to being decent (IMHO). And 90% of them are MK4, which I hate. I think you should go gen GWSD dial route but that's just my opinion.

To reply to a your questions, I don't know about the date wheel overlay. the stock datewheel on the MBW is a painted datewheel I believe. I do know that several folks have tried to put overlays on their subs and SD,s and I have heard from quite a few of them that they had problems with the overlay sitting too high and rubbing on the bottom of the dial. It doesn't take too much resistance to cause the datewheel to "hang". As to the window placement, I have had two 1680 Subs and one 1665 that have the 2846-2 movement all are MBW and have the stock MBW dial. in all cases the datewheel lines up correctly in the date window.Possibly there is and overlay, and the problem is they aren't peeling off the old overlay before thye put the correct one on. i do know that the member watchmaker who has done all my modding since about 2005, will not fool with overlays because of the potential for problems.

As to the correctness of the DRSD dials,I would have to defer to Freddy about that. I am looking at a DRSD dial that according to the owner is the most correct aftermarket DRSD dial around. the dial is in transit back to him, and truthfully, I haven't even seen a photo of it. According to him, he sourced it either from Freddy or the source that Freddy used for his DRSD dial, which I believe is a very, very accurate dial.

You do make a valid point about dial choices, i would suspect that should the deal for this dial fall through, i have a fellow member with a genuine GWSD dial that i can use.

I'm not trying to build a watch that i can sell on Ebay as a "genuine" DRSD" rather what I want is a solid dependable watch that I can wear anywhere I choose.

[Ronin]

Freddy333, as usual is the voice of reason, but $1000!? Confused, since obtaining a 1575 either serviced, or that you have serviced puts you in the $1500 neighborhood just for the movement.

I can comment based on some recent similar dilemmas.

I have a 1680 project sitting idle. In short, ALL GEN parts but the Yuki mid-case. However, my serviced 1575, originally for this project, is sitting pretty in my Gen 1603 Datejust that was to be the donor. My dilemma is do I part out the Gen 1603 -> Build the 1680 Super Franken -> Re-power the 1603 with ETA, and end up going from GEN + REP to Super Franken + Franken. Back to Freddy333's point. I can buy a white 1680 for under $5000, or even a Red as low as $9000. Running the numbers I would be pushing $2500 into the project.

Fast forward to my recent Rail 1665. It is by no means a "Super" Franken, but a "Solid" Franken. I have to say, "in person" it rocks and is giving me huge satisfaction. I feel it has enough of an RSC Service look to be plausible. Even this project has cost me close to $800 based on Gen parts, and donor watches used to make it. (I should be able to lower its build cost once I resell some of the unused donor parts down the road.

Back to the matter at hand, and building on Freddy333's comments and a conversation I had recently with Ubi. You need to come up with a % percentage of Gen Cost -vs- Franken Build that you are comfortable with. Where this really plays out is when you start thinking about Daytona's, rare 1665s, etc.

Example, lets say you are willing to spend up to 10% "Gen" pricing to build your "Super-Super" Franken.

Gen DRSD = $50,000. @ 10% "willingness" your project budget would be $5000.

Gen White 1680 = $5000. @ 10% = $500. (See my dilemma from above)

Set a budget / plan.

No real answer I am afraid, but hopefully this will give you something to ponder.

[freddy333]

Freddy333, as usual is the voice of reason, but $1000!? Confused, since obtaining a 1575 either serviced, or that you have serviced puts you in the $1500 neighborhood just for the movement.

The point I was trying (apparently unsuccessfully) to make is that I will only generally exceed $1k to construct a franken that would cost 10s of thousands to purchase outright as a gen. In other words, I will spend some serious cash to replicate those ultra rare gens that I would never likely be able to buy. This is why I spent more than $1k to make my gen-powered Phase II albino '42 (which would easily cost me more than $100k if gen) or gold Newman 6239 (which would also easily exceed the $100k mark in gen form), while I spent less than a grand to make the ETA-powered Phase 1 black dial '42 (which I could pick up for as little as $20k as a gen) or my 6263 (which can also be had from about $20k).

I would love a 16520, but the cost to construct a Zenith-powered franken is too close to the cost for a gen to suit my self-imposed 20x buying rule.

[panerai153]

Thanks Freddy. i understood what you were talking about. One of the most important criteria you use is percentage of genuine. If a genuine costs 50,000 USD then you can afford (using your rule of thumb of 10%) to spend around 5000.00 USD for the franken.

Ronin, It does give me something to ponder. Here is where I stand at the present time. below is a breakdown of what i've spent thus far (I've kept a detailed Excel spreadsheet of everything related to this watch.

1. MBW 1665 - came with genuine superdome, genuine crown/tube and lug holes drilled (movement was serviced as well, 150.00

but that won't matter except to enhance a sale)

2.Rolex 1665 Insert 161.00

3.Rolex tritium pearl 110.00

4.Rolex 93150 Bracelet 350.00

5. ETA 2846-2 Movement (new) Octos Donor watch , could be sold in the watch if I decide to go genuine 1570 82.00

Total thus far 853.00

- 82.00 if I go genuine = 771.00

So what else do I need

1. 1570 movement 1100-1300

2. Dial

3 .Hands 20.00 (Clarks)

250.00 (Genuine)

I don't have any idea as to the price of a dial and hands, although I believe from others projects, a dial will be in the range of 250-400 USD amd hands can be 20.00 USD for clarks up to around 250.00 USD for genuine

So here we are 771.00 + 1200.00 (movement) +300.00 (Dial) + 20.00 (hands) =2291.00 and this doesn't include a movement service plus the costs of putting all this together. so I can safely say somewhere north of 2500.00 USD of course adding genuine hands adds about 200-250 more to the project.

So here isrthe question, do these numbers fall within Freddy's 10% rule? I suppose you would have to research recent sales of genuine DRSD's to try to establish and average of sales prices. As someons said, if you were doing a GWSD, there is no way you could justify this project using Freddy's rule.

[Ronin]

I think a $2500 budget for what you described is well within reason. Only you can answer whether $853 -vs- $2500 for essentially a non-visible part (movement) is worth it to you. ???

5. ETA 2846-2 Movement (new) Octos Donor watch , could be sold in the watch if I decide to go genuine 1570 82.00

FYI, I have two of these. They are BONE DRY, and chances are good your reversing wheel is sticking. (Open your case back, manual wind it, does the Rotor spin like mad?) I chatted with 'bidfortime' and they have admitted these have been sitting around almost two decades. The most interesting feature on these 2846's -vs- a PT 2846 is they are NON-Hacking. (At least mine are). Unless you did Level II of the TimeZone watch school (how to clean and lube a 2836), factor another $100~$150 to service the Octo...

[praetor]

well sometimes you can't think prices in relative terms. Sometimes you'd have to think in absolute terms. The bottom line is that it's going to cost 2 grand. If you're really firm about having it, like for example you're a person who likes having permanent pieces in your collection (you did mention that you sold your MBW before) or it's one of your grail watches, then here are really no alternatives for a WIS. It's either super franken or gen. Sure you could say that "for 2k, I could get a gen speedy", but it's just not the same. So the question then becomes is it something that you're capable of spending on without financial or relationship repercussions?

[freddy333]

Thanks Freddy. i understood what you were talking about. One of the most important criteria you use is percentage of genuine. If a genuine costs 50,000 USD then you can afford (using your rule of thumb of 10%) to spend around 5000.00 USD for the franken.

Not quite there, Pan.

Put simply, I would not spend $3k-$4k to build a 16520 when I can buy the gen for only $8k or so more. In order for me to spend more than $1k building a franken, the difference between the cost of building the franken vs buying the gen has to be at least 20 fold. Does that make sense now?

[freddy333]

Only you can answer whether $853 -vs- $2500 for essentially a non-visible part (movement) is worth it to you. ???

I think you hit the nail on the head.

In my case, I spend serious money only on those watches that are purchased as keepers. In the case of frankens, I also factor in the fact that, over time, more accurate aftermarket parts will become available, which allows me to upgrade/improve, sometimes to the point of turning a franken into a gen. And I feel this makes the investment worthwhile.

[JoJo35]

Freddy's formula makes total sense regarding the financial aspects of putting together these toys. However, I think one must also consider the value regarding the passion and fun of creating something from "nothing" (so to speak). Take for instance, my white 1680. My first really good franken; in retrospect I can say it was a valuable learning experience which led me to where I am now regarding my collecting. The watch is an old school MBW, the case is probably five years old (which I bought new), although the rest of the completed watch is as old as the hills. A 1570 motor, an old flat silver datewheel, gen hands, gen dial, gen crystal... etc.

This piece obviously blows Freddy's formula out of the water, but to me that wasn't even a consideration. Yes, I can certainly afford a "perfect" box/papers Mk1 white gen, but to me that wasn't the point. The enjoyment I got out of building this one was worth a helluva lot more to me than the cost of building the watch compared to buying a 1680.

[Dizzy]

nice 1680 jojo!! I love the dial. I have a gen NOS tritium white dial in mine also but my markers are just a creamy white. Ive had it in my safe for the last 2 years trying to darken up the tritium but its not working yet LOL.. maybe another 25 years... hahaha. I dont want to relume it because its mint. Luming it to look old would kill any value..

Anyways, as for the 1665, why not buy a Puretime 1665 or 1680.. take the movement and datewheel and dump it into the MBW with the MBW dial. Now you have low beat ETA and silver flat top 3 datewheel. Then put the 2836 from the MBW into the Puretime watch and sell it off at a good price to recoup some costs. It would be a simple solution to the datewheel issue anyways. The datefont on my puretime movement aligned perfect with a gen and MBW datewheel when i test fitted it during my Puretime datewindow mod, so as you shouldnt have any issues there and theres lots of clearance and the datewheel wont hang up. Just use some dial dots and the thin dial spacer that comes with the PT watch and you are set.

dizz

[highoeyazmuhudee]

FORGET THE OCTOS there are better routes to go. octos are NOS and yes dry like Ronin said. the rotors on mine spin as well which damages the ratchet wheel and sends all sorts of debris in the movement as well. ive since abandoned octos since im running out of spare parts to fix to fix the unjeweled and unoiled reversing wheels. i have a thread in the movements section of this board as i saw myself in the same predicament while im making my franken the 2846/2842 just didnt semm up to par.

[Watchmeister]

Very interesting discussion. You guys are much more disciplined than I am. I could never build any super rep for 20:1 or 5% of current cost. So I go a different route. I never do a project unless I have one or both of a gen dial or movement or it is under $700. And depending on the gen part component I am willing to go to 25% plus. I have gone as high as 40% of gen. But the gen parts are always re-sellable and if you buy parts wisely the one thing you never take a loss on is those parts. I understand Rolex is far and away the most difficult. Rolex parts seem to zoom up to the level that makes the gen worth what it is worth. A red sub dial is $3k plus (I am guessing) which is 75-100% of the differential between a Red Sub and and white and 40% of what I can buy the gen for. Ergo I am not building a lot of Rolexes. So I have to say that as long as the majority of expense is gen parts I am comfortable going much higher. Someone had mentioned the 16520. That is a great example. You build that for $3-4k (40% of gen) and there are a long line of people waiting to buy it who either can't get the project together themselves and/or who don't want to spend or have the money for the full $9-10k.

[panerai153]

I think a $2500 budget for what you described is well within reason. Only you can answer whether $853 -vs- $2500 for essentially a non-visible part (movement) is worth it to you. ???

FYI, I have two of these. They are BONE DRY, and chances are good your reversing wheel is sticking. (Open your case back, manual wind it, does the Rotor spin like mad?) I chatted with 'bidfortime' and they have admitted these have been sitting around almost two decades. The most interesting feature on these 2846's -vs- a PT 2846 is they are NON-Hacking. (At least mine are). Unless you did Level II of the TimeZone watch school (how to clean and lube a 2836), factor another $100~$150 to service the Octo...

Thanks for the information. So factoring in a 100-150 USD cost for service, how would that compare to having a 1570 serviced? Assuming the person who does the assembly could do either one, 2846 or 1570 ?

well sometimes you can't think prices in relative terms. Sometimes you'd have to think in absolute terms. The bottom line is that it's going to cost 2 grand. If you're really firm about having it, like for example you're a person who likes having permanent pieces in your collection (you did mention that you sold your MBW before) or it's one of your grail watches, then here are really no alternatives for a WIS. It's either super franken or gen. Sure you could say that "for 2k, I could get a gen speedy", but it's just not the same. So the question then becomes is it something that you're capable of spending on without financial or relationship repercussions?

I agree. Sometimes I want something that i have a hard time justifying in concrete terms. I did sell the previous MBW, as i was replacing all my reps with genuine watches at the time. Also the previous one wasn't modded to nearly the level that mine is right now. Financials are always a consideration unless you are wealthy enough to have tons of disposable income, which I don't. But it wouldn't adversely affect my financial situation, except that it may have to replace another "toy". Also I have a couple of pretty nice reps that are gathering dust in my watch box, which if sold would at least cover the price of the movement.

I believe that a lot of why we do what we do, outside of the fact that we are all certifiable lunatics when it comes to watches, is the joy and pride associated with making something beautiful and useful from a box of of parts. I could probably scrape together the cash to buy a nice Great White SD, and have a genuine, but what fun would that be? Once the initial exuberance of opening the box and putting it on your wrist passes, it's just another watch. But if you had something to do with it's creation, albeit only collecting the parts and sending them off to Ziggy to put together, at least you were an active participant, which is never the case with a genuine. And to answer the question Ronin posed , "Only you can answer whether $853 -vs- $2500 for essentially a non-visible part (movement) is worth it to you"? The parts may be invisible, but I know.

Thank you one and all for your contribution to this thread. I really appreciate your input. Hopefully, in the not too distant future, i will be able to post photos of my 1665 as a "Work in Progress-Finished"

[Ronin]

Thanks for the information. So factoring in a 100-150 USD cost for service, how would that compare to having a 1570 serviced? Assuming the person who does the assembly could do either one, 2846 or 1570 ?

My AD* charges $500, and another local AWCI Repair shop does it for $300 + parts as needed (i.e. add $50 for a mainspring, etc). I believe Ziggy does it as well, but I am always fearful of shipping it back and forth to the Great White North.

*It is nice if you have a 'donor' watch. That way you can have the "Gen Rolex" serviced without too many questions asked. Rolling into an AD or most reputable shops with just the movement might raise an eyebrow.

[Dizzy]

Yes i suppose it might be suspicious to just take a 1570 into an AD asking for service. I wouldnt be at all surprised if they refused to do it. Independant watchmakers could probably care less what you are going to do with the movement after you take it home. I wouldnt take a Rolex to an AD for service anyways... unless it was new and under warranty. I had a gen Breitling flying B when they first came out. After a year or so, the jump hour mech stopped working. My watch guy tried everything to get parts but they there was nothing available. I had to bite the bullet and send it to Breitling for service because they were the only ones that had parts for their modified jump hour movements. It wasnt cheap to fix. If my watch guy had the parts it would have been a $300 fix. Breitling charged me almost 3x that.

[dieselpower]

I have to agree with JoJo35 when it comes to the satisfaction gained from putting a project together, sourcing the parts and basically creating a watch from bits gleaned here and there. I can not put a price on that. I would also like to point out one (for me) big factor in relation to movements - I have a slow beat eta in my MBW 1665 with the Ubi overlay (and yes, it does not change date properly on a few days but it gets there by about 4am!) a big disappointment is the fact that the date drops down from above the window as opposed to the gen which pops up from the bottom of the window. So, based on that high degree of inaccuracy in this area and the fact that without an overlay or a PT datewheel you would have to use the standard MBW wheel - which is a load of pants - I would have to opt for the gen movement with its correct wheel. I think the cost is wholly justified and the net result would be something quite special. Sod the finances, if its a keeper (and it should be!) then the money aspect deminishes with each passing day. So why then have I not put a gen movement in my MBW? Many reasons really, my case is not exactly as I would wish, I am currently putting together a 6263 and it's difficult to justify spending money on watches and parts when my wife and I have our second child due in 2 weeks time and I cannot get out of my head the fact that I could have picked up any old Datejust for about £400 when I worked in a watch dealers shop in London and now the prices I see seem silly.

So, buy a gen movement. Maybe spread the cost of other parts over time for comforts sake but do get the gen movement. It will feel gen, it will look gen and if you change your mind or decide to sell the piece you should not loose a penny.

Whatever you decide do keep us posted and I wish you well with the project.