EEngels Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Hi, I'm new here. I have a few simple watches* and now I'm in the mood to make a franken. I have no watchmaking experience but I've begun to buy some of the tools. This is a pattern for me. I bought guitars, I learned to play guitar, and then I learned to repair and build guitars. I bought a car, I learned to work on it, and then I pulled and installed clutches and engines and various parts to keep things running when I was in school. I really like the 6541 Milgauss look, because it's a little different. So, I have a few questions. I'm seeking advice and opinions. CASE: (1) How much to spend? (2) Something gen like (TOO NEW TO POST A LINK)cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260734819614&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNAFP:US:1123 - OR - something newly made, like a phong case? MOVEMENT: Where to source? What to spend? Difficulties involved in mixing and matching calibres to cases that weren't originally issued together? DIAL: NDTrading has dials, hands, and a whole dial/hands/movement set - but I believe the hands and dial are replica. Which brings me to the question you've all addressed before: If the case is a replica, the dial is a replica, the hands are replica, and the movement is genuine, is it a franken, or is it a replica? If the movement is the only real part in it, is it still a Rolex? I guess I think if the case were gen and the movement gen, even if they're for other ref., it's still a Rolex. Thank you! * a few simple watches means, mkII LRRP (1655 style), two skx007 mods similar to sm300, and a replica seamaster bond. Time for something a little more Rolex-like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 First and foremost- Welcome to the forum Your ambition and enthusiasm will carry you a long way in your project; I think the learning curve will be fairly little considering your history with learning/playing/repairing and building guitars and finding your way around car repairs and mechanical expertise. You'll have the fundamentals down in no time. The important aspect to building, and this applies to almost any kind of hobby or interest, is to have the right tools to do the job. To get a good head start on this, you can pick up the basics that you think you will need a la carte (i.e. set of watchmaker's screw drivers in various sizes, #2 tweezers, rodico, pith wood, hand/gear removers, hand setter, movement cushion, caseback wrench, etc), or you can pick up ready made kits that may likely contain everything that you will need (and sometimes more than you need). I would suggest starting off with a low dollar watch or replica to get familiar with. You can practice things like casing and uncasing movements, releasing winding stems from the keyless works, removing and setting hands, removing dials etc. As you become more and more familiar, you can take the next step of building your own watch With regards to building your own watch- It's best to start with a rough idea for budget and go from there. Projects can range from inexpensive to moderate to very expensive depending on the content used in the build and it's easy to go overbudget if you're not careful. Definitely a good idea to get a battle plan in order first before embarking on anything (and this is where the forum can help steer you ). As far as the definition of what is a franken and what is not- That is a subjective term, in my opinion. To me, a franken is a watch put together from parts, be it genuine parts, aftermarket parts or flat out replica parts. In order for a watch to really qualify as a franken (to me), the build must consist of a genuine dial among other things like hands and movement being a big plus (but not always necessary). If the watch is comprised of mostly aftermarket parts, or a non-genuine dial, to me that is what I would term as a 'build'. But again, the term is whatever you want to make of it. There's nothing set in stone, and nomenclature is a very subjective thing Also, please have a look around the forum archives; the search function in the upper right hand corner can be somewhat fussy to use at times, but it should work to hopefully help with answering some questions be it technical, or if you want to see other similar builds that may have been completed prior (we have a lot of knowledge and history here). Take an evening or so to check the place out. I think you'll like it here as there are many friendly faces, several of which have quite a bit of experience in this type of stuff! Cheers, //ubi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Welcome to rwg I think you will like it here somehow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEngels Posted February 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Ubi, Thanks for replying! I've been lurking and searching the archives for a week or so, checking out the fantastic builds going on in this community. It's you guys that make me believe it's possible to come out with something more than the sum of a random collection of parts. I've got 2 zeiger submariner replicas on the way for experimenting with. I paid 30 bucks for both of them, so they're perfect candidates for casing/uncasing and other fun. I've got screwdrivers, hand tweezers, case remover, and hand setters on the way. As with guitars and cars, quality tools, the correct tool for the job, make all the difference. Thanks for your definitions of 'build' and 'franken.' I wonder if it's even possible to make a franken Milgauss - the real dial and hands seem unobtainable. First and foremost- Welcome to the forum ... Take an evening or so to check the place out. I think you'll like it here as there are many friendly faces, all of which have quite a bit of experience in this type of stuff! Cheers, //ubi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Good stuff! I think that watch building (as with most hobbies and the sort) is really one of those things that you have to dive right into with both feet and just get messy with. It's definitely a learning experience, but once you've got the basics down, it's not so bad As for the 6541 Milly- That might be a tough one to do. Genuine dials and hands are out there somewhere... But likely to cost dearly. In this case, using an NDT dial and hands for a build might be your best solution as far as cost goes. Or, you can start with a rep to see how you like the watch and design... See if this is really the style you are after. If it is... You can build upon that to start. If you want to take it to the next level after that, then you can look into doing something a little more... Be prepared... This hobby can pull you in. It can become quite addicting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
If you see Kay Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Also be prepared to spend lots of money as for the unitiated, there's lots of trial and error. What you definitely think will fit inevitably doesn't fit, so you go and buy something else that might fit, only to find that too doesn't fit. So then you go out and mod the first part only to screw it up and then you're back to square one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Stay away from Ubi, he's a bad influence. After he and Lani got done with me I was no longer satisfied with an out-of-the-box rep... Pick something simple. I would do a Tudor as a first build - SURPRISE!! The gen dials are plentiful and reasonably priced, rep cases and bands are plentiful, no date wheel overlay to mess around with, and the gens use an ETA movement just like your Franken will have! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEngels Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Or, you can start with a rep to see how you like the watch and design... See if this is really the style you are after. If it is... You can build upon that to start. If you want to take it to the next level after that, then you can look into doing something a little more... Be prepared... This hobby can pull you in. It can become quite addicting. This. I'm thinking perhaps I take the sub clones and try and convert them to 6541 replicas. That would be a good way to begin. The difficulty is, where to get lightning bolt ETA/AS ETA hands? Clearly, they're made - the replicas for the new Milgauss exist. Any tips? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolfire Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Stay away from Ubi, he's a bad influence. After he and Lani got done with me I was no longer satisfied with an out-of-the-box rep... Pick something simple. I would do a Tudor as a first build - SURPRISE!! The gen dials are plentiful and reasonably priced, rep cases and bands are plentiful, no date wheel overlay to mess around with, and the gens use an ETA movement just like your Franken will have! You ain't the only one who got done by Ubi, mate. And that is sound advice on them Tudors! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
If you see Kay Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Nah, stay away from JMB!!!!!! He's the one that got me into building frankens. But, I never have such luck as him. I've got 3 Rollies in parts cuz I get so fed up with all mismatched and not fitting pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEngels Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) Bad influences are better. Edited February 16, 2011 by vmarks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 You may also want to consider the TimeZone Online Watch School - http://www.timezonew...om/WatchSchool/ (This is what I owe some of my successful projects to) Plus, you will end up with all of these cool tools: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Nah, stay away from JMB!!!!!! He's the one that got me into building frankens. But, I never have such luck as him. I've got 3 Rollies in parts cuz I get so fed up with all mismatched and not fitting pieces. Aw, c'mon! You can "make" them parts fit if yer determined enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
If you see Kay Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 yah see what I mean???!!!!??? I tried to "make" some pieces fit only to fubar them. Went out and purchased a replacement and ended fubaring it all on my own, again..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lhooq Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Hello and welcome! A long, long time ago, all the way back in 2008, there was a guy named klingsor who made a beautiful 6541. It was very good, but also unfair, since he'd used a genuine case to build it. I don't believe there have been too many 6541 projects since then. There was a small amount of buzz in December, when a new 6541 rep was introduced (alongside a somewhat disappointing 6542 GMT). The most obvious change from the previous 6541 was the addition of a new caseback and Faraday cage, and the midcase looks to be entirely different. However, I'm not aware of anyone who has bought this new rep, let alone reviewed it thoroughly, or compared it with the gen. Likewise, I don't know if anyone has evaluated the accuracy of the pricier cases available from Phong, Yuki, or NDT. Might be a good place to start, especially at less than $200! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Welcome to the forum. you will probably regret ever stopping in here .This is a very addicting hobby. The only way to learn to swim though is to get your feet wet. All of the guys who posted up above me are masters when it comes to making up beautiful "built up" watches. All i do is find stuff and send it to someone else for the build. i will second what some have said, never assume something is going to fit, just because it looks like it will. Quite a lot of the reps are made to "resemble" the genuine, but some are only superficial resemblances, and fitting parts from other watches, or genuine parts is often and expensive and frustrating experience. I will say, with the right skill set, and the advice and counsel of many of the folks who have already "Been there, done that", you will be amazed at what can be put together. To answer your question in your first post about what is a Rolex, in my opinion, and others may disagree, it's not genuine unless everything is genuine. So even though your wonderful vintage 1680 has a Rolex 1570 movement, Crystal, dial, hands, bezel, insert, crown and tube, it's not a Rolex unless the case is genuine as well. So no matter what you build up, if parts are not genuine, it's in the purist sense of the word, not genuine.As long as we recognize that and stay within our world, everything is OK. It's only when someone attempts to pass off a "Franken" as a genuine that everything starts to unravel.If i tried to sell a vintage Rolex Datejust on the Vintage Rolex Market, and the watch had a nice Alligator band, nothing is wrong with and aftermarket band as long as it's stated, everyone does that especially with leather straps. Where I would get in trouble is trying to pass off a strap that is stamped Rolex, but is not genuine Rolex. Same with other parts, like bezel inserts and even hands. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grifter Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Hello and welcome!! I'm fairly new here, but it's been great and all the "pro's" have been really helpful and friendly!! My first build was a failure but I learned a lot from it. Keep trying and if you get to the point of total frustration and you're spending waaay over your planned budget (like I did) you can always send the project off to a modder to finish. I had to, but I'm happy to report I finally finished my own mod project today! Hope you have lots of fun learning and doing projects!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Welcome to the forum. I wish i had the skills and ambition to go your way. Modding reps , if you don't do it yourself , can be a very costly hobby. Apart from the fun and satisfaction you will get form doing it yourself you will save a lot of money to invest in other projects. Show us the progress on your first project here on RWG. Carpe Diem Cats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ile Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 vmarks, have you got any luck with this so far? built a datejust or similar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEngels Posted March 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 YEARS LATER.... I am still doing this project. I have currently: NDT dial hands (lightning bolt second hand, hour and minute dauphine) gen 1601 case with crystal (need to remove cyclops) sapphire crystal for 1601 with no cyclops (or use this crystal) smooth stainless bezel gen steel crown and of all the crazy... an Omega 2500C co-axial escapement movement. This is essentially a 2892 as I understand it. TO DO: figure out either swapping crystals or removing the cyclops acquire movement holder ring and tabs and screws to mount movement figure out dial feet determine whether or not the hands are correct dia. for the cannon pinion on the 2500c assemble (yes, there are a few more details here. stem length, stem position, etc.) Alternately: Sell the Omega movement to an omega rep builder and get a 2836 or other and finish the build. Why did I buy the Omega? Because I missed out the 2x times I came across a 1570 that was close to my budget. The co-axial seemed technically intriguing. Why am I building a 6541 in a Datejust case? There's a picture of a 6541 where someone removed the rotating bezel and used a smooth bezel instead. I like that. Advice welcome. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEngels Posted March 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Well, I say it's an NDT dial. I'm not sure. I can't recall what it was advertised as when I bought it, but looking at it, it: * says SINGER on the back * has dial feet in the 1570 positions (35ish and 57ish) * lume is aged, otherwise in good condition. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I recall paying a few hundred for it. NDT advertises their dials as 100% original, refinished. I imagine that honeycomb pattern would be hard to refinish. Would you guys call an NDT dial gen when they're sold as original? Man, I wish I'd gotten a 1570 when I'd had the chance. I'd hate to cut these dial feet un-necessarily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Ndt dials are not 100% original refinished. And you can't call them gen. You can't even call them refinished Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 The case you're using is 36mm it won't work for the dial you have. If you want a vintage milgauss with a smooth bezel why not the 1019? You can find the gen dial for a fairly reasonable price. The build is kind of impossible with what you have. I would start selling off what you have and buy the stuff you need slowly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEngels Posted March 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 OK, good advice. Will the dial I have fit in a 6538 size case? Where can I get a good one? Just for the sake of argument, will it fit in a TC Sub case? (I'd cut off the crown guards, maybe.) Is it possible to replace the rotating bezel with a smooth stainless bezel? Who makes a stainless smooth bezel in place of the rotating one... I'd do a 1019, but I'liked the 3/6/9 markers for 6541, and I want the lightning bolt second hand. If I do a 1019, I have to give up at least the 3/6/9. And where would I get a good 1019 dial? This is the look I was aiming at: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted March 4, 2013 Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 I'm not really sure why you are making things hard on yourself, Natalie has the case http://ndtradingcorp.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=173 If you want a 6541 then buy that case, not a 6538 case... and your dial will fit no problem. The earliest 6541's came with the solid bezel that you like, but most with the turning bezel. If you want a 1019 dial look on vrm there are a few. But focus on one thing and try to execute it in the easiest way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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