Would you call it a SCAM (attempt)?

[TeeJay]

"i removed the movement and refunded him the money that he paid for it and send it back to him.

a few days later brian then said that he wanted the money back for the work which included removing and fitting crystals for AR and the run about trying to get a set of gen hands which is not the easyest of things to do as i am sure you all know."

Let's get the facts right:

On the 9th of June I gave Andy my bank details and sent the following pm after Andy refused to take back the hands:

"Ok, I understand that you do not want to have the hands back. I cannot use them without a gen movement neither. The 60 € for labor is also compeletely useless for me as the watch is not completed in any way.

I cannot see why I should pay for both of these. Let's settle the case and refund the movement+labor costs, which are together 360 €. On the other side I will keep the hands and you can have what I paid for it, even if the hands are no use for me."

This message was ignored by Andy. The following day Andy sent me the watch parts back and after five days the 300 Euro refund arrived.

I had the following pm on the 14th of June:

"The 300 € for the movement arrived, but you forgat to refund the labor costs, which are 60 €. I do not want to make your nick with this transaction public or leave negative feedback, even if I still feel [censored] off. When the labor costs refund arrives, this case is settled for me."

This message was also ignored by Andy.

BTW this is how the movement was described to me on the 4th of May: "€300 for the movement and it has silver polished screws just like you want,, not cheep but dont forget this is a Genuine TAG new Calibre 16 chronometre movement and you pay over 400 for a standard new non decorated 7750 that is a good price"

After I received the watch and made my complaints about the movement Andy wrote to me: "Yes it does have one blued screw, i admit, and that is the way i got it."

It's strange that both of the blue screws are under other movement parts so they cannot be seen or changed easily.

Andy did work for you, swapping parts around, and that costs. If you went to a garage and had say an engine swap performed on your car, even if you then wanted the original engine put back in, there's no way you'd see the labor cost refunded, because regardless of your perception of the scenario, work which took time was performed... If Andy says that the movement was acquired as genuine from a trusted source, that should be good enough. Even if you don't take his word for it, considering how companies like Rolex can change minor details in a production run, it is really beyond the realm of impossibility that a couple of blued screws were installed by the factory? Are a couple of blue screws really worth this hassle and public embarrassment over? Lets be clear here, you have seriously embarrassed yourself here by doing this, and I doubt any other forum modders would be willing to work with you in future as a result...

[Ronin]

...

And still I belive that that is a Tag heuer Cal 16 that happend to have two blued screws in it.

if any one cares to do the reaserch there are more varients of the Cal 16 than you may think and they all come off ETA production lines.

The ETA/Valjoux 7750 is like an Aircooled Volkswagen engine. Tons of variations over the years. The criteria the OP used to discount the movement and discredit Andy simply does not hold water.

This whole thing seems silly. If the I received a GEN 7750 with proper Rotor for the price paid, and if it keeps good time, I would be thrilled.

I think I need to side with Andy on this one.

[_brian_]

You are correct Sr. apparently they are different variations

http://www.bing.com/...ure&FORM=IDFRIR

http://www.replicarolexeta.com/watchpicture/replicaTagHeuerwatch057007.jpg

I am not really a Tag Expert so I can not comment on this

The second picture is a rep movement - blue screws everywhere. Here is the gen TH Calibre 16 with perforated rotor we are talking about - it does not have any blue screws:

[FxrAndy]

Brian are you now saying that i sent you a rep movement

with a gen hand set fitted??

[KB]

You are basing this entire mud slinging thread on a couple of blue screws?

Are you aware that many very high end movements do in fact have blue screws and so someone could have added those without giving it thought.

If every screw in there was pink it still would not take away from it being a genuine movement.

Ken

[wiesn089]

I don't think the colour of two screws and an overexposed picture from a totally different angle suffice as prove that this is not a genuine movement.

Edit: Looking at the pictures, I can't see why you would doubt that this is genuine, it is decorated nicely, I wouldn't expect more from a re-branded Valjoux 7750.

[_brian_]

The ETA/Valjoux 7750 is like an Aircooled Volkswagen engine. Tons of variations over the years. The criteria the OP used to discount the movement and discredit Andy simply does not hold water.

This whole thing seems silly. If the I received a GEN 7750 with proper Rotor for the price paid, and if it keeps good time, I would be thrilled.

I think I need to side with Andy on this one.

If you pay for a genuine Tag Heuer Calibre 16 movement with perforated rotor and you receive a movement, where only the rotor is genuine, it's hard to see why someone should be thrilled.

We do not talk about any ETA 7750 movement here, but a gen TH Calibre 16 with perforated rotor. That's what was sold to me, but I received something else. Obviously I was not thrilled.

[_brian_]

Dont forget brian that while i was ignoring your PMs i was sailing in the baltic sea and i had that written in my sigature

Well, you read my pms for bank details and ignored it regarding the hands and service costs on the same day.

[Ronin]

We do not talk about any ETA 7750 movement here, but a gen TH Calibre 16 with perforated rotor. That's what was sold to me, but I received something else. Obviously I was not thrilled.

Yes we are, they are the same thing. Scroll up to the GEN Cal 16 posted. See the 7750 and ETA logo stamped on the Gen Cal 16. Given the price paid, you got a deal either way.

[_brian_]

Yes we are, they are the same thing. Scroll up to the GEN Cal 16 posted. See the 7750 and ETA logo stamped on the Gen Cal 16. Given the price paid, you got a deal either way.

Are you saying that any ETA 7750 with stamp + Calibre 16 rotor is a genuine TH movement? Well, it's obviously not the case...

[KB]

Brian why do you keep ignoring the very good responses/questions the members are giving and you keep claiming the movement is rep with no more proof than a couple of blue screws.

You realise your creditability is taking a pounding here?

Ken

[_brian_]

Brian are you now saying that i sent you a rep movement

with a gen hand set fitted??

Well, I'm only saying that I bought those gen hands because you sold me a genuine Tag Heuer Calibre 16 movement - which turned out to be not a gen Tag Heuer movement. This is why you took it back and this is why I have no use for the hands neither.

[FxrAndy]

No brian i took it back because you were not happy and in my oppinion that counts, not because it was not gen! and i asked you for proof it was not gen but all you could provide were the photos you posted at the start of this thread, and that is the same you provided to the moderator you asked to mediate but nothing new.

[jchurch]

LOL. if it wasn't a genuine movement were the genuine hands ever fitted? If so one would have to conclude it is a gen movement, correct? I mean working off of your logic that you have no use for the hands without a genuine movement.

If it isn't a genuine movement I feel bad for both parties involved. If the movement checked out and was a genuine movement would you be willing to split the 300 he refunded? You know as a token for dragging someone through the mud over fake DRAMA caused by idiotic thinking?

[TeeJay]

Well, I'm only saying that I bought those gen hands because you sold me a genuine Tag Heuer Calibre 16 movement - which turned out to be not a gen Tag Heuer movement. This is why you took it back and this is why I have no use for the hands neither.

Which you believe may not be a gen movement... As above, variations occur in watch production, it does not stop the item 'being real'.

LOL. if it wasn't a genuine movement were the genuine hands ever fitted? If so one would have to conclude it is a gen movement, correct? I mean working off of your logic that you have no use for the hands without a genuine movement.

If it isn't a genuine movement I feel bad for both parties involved. If the movement checked out and was a genuine movement would you be willing to split the 300 he refunded? You know as a token for dragging someone through the mud over fake DRAMA caused by idiotic thinking?

Why should he be able to split it? If the movement checks out as genuine, then Andy deserves the full 300...

[_brian_]

Brian why do you keep ignoring the very good responses/questions the members are giving and you keep claiming the movement is rep with no more proof than a couple of blue screws.

You realise your creditability is taking a pounding here?

Ken

I think you misunderstand me. Where did I say that the movement is rep?

I'm only saying that it is not a genuine Tag Heuer Calibre 16 movement - although it was sold to me like that.

Even if it is a sort of franken ETA with Tag Heuer rotor - it is not what I have paid for and it is not how it was described to me.

[_brian_]

No brian i took it back because you were not happy and in my oppinion that counts, not because it was not gen! and i asked you for proof it was not gen but all you could provide were the photos you posted at the start of this thread, and that is the same you provided to the moderator you asked to mediate but nothing new.

I pointed out five details, which cannot be found on genuine Tag Heuer Calibre 16 movements. At the beginning you even described that caliber as a movement with only silver polished screws. I asked you to confirm that we are talking about the same thing: A gen TH movement. After I received a movement with blue screws - which you admit to have seen before -, of course I was not happy and still cannot see why in this case I should pay for service. Why did not you mention the blue screw? If you deliver as you promised, a gen TH cal 16 movement, we would not have this thread here.

[KB]

Describe in clear terms why it is not a genuine TAG caliber 16 movement.

Lets not beat around the bush any more, what is the proof to your accusation?

Ken

[TeeJay]

I pointed out five details, which cannot be found on genuine Tag Heuer Calibre 16 movements. At the beginning you even described that caliber as a movement with only silver polished screws. I asked you to confirm that we are talking about the same thing: A gen TH movement. After I received a movement with blue screws - which you admit to have seen before -,

Two blue screws could be a manufacturing variance! If the movement was acquired from a reliable source, it does not mean the movement is in any way suspicious!

still cannot see why in this case I should pay for service.

You pay for the service because Andy did work for you which took him time and time = Money, regardless of if you got paranoid and then made him undo the work... If you are this paranoid that you are being ripped off, I suggest you take your money, go into your nearest TAG AD, and ask them to order you a movement from their suppliers.

[praetor]

ETA and TAG heuer's movement is virtually the same and that should include the same size screws too. Right now, the parts are so identically machined and polished for ETA movements that the only difference is how each watchmaking house decorate the movement. As far as I'm concerned, there is no difference between someone trained to decorate the movement the same way and some bozo working in TAG Heuer.

The only problem with it is the blue screws. The right thing to do is to send the buyer a pair of greyed screws.

for 300 euros, can't complain about it much even if it is a swiss 7750 finished to look like a caliber 16 by some watchmaker because that's what I figure what it would cost anyways. so chill the [censored] out dude

[_brian_]

Describe in clear terms why it is not a genuine TAG caliber 16 movement.

Lets not beat around the bush any more, what is the proof to your accusation?

Ken

Gen Tag Calibre 16 movements do not have any blue screws and different geneve stripes finishing as I described already. Just look at the fotos, the differences are obvious.

[_brian_]

ETA and TAG heuer's movement is virtually the same and that should include the same size screws too. Right now, the parts are so identically machined and polished for ETA movements that the only difference is how each watchmaking house decorate the movement. As far as I'm concerned, there is no difference between someone trained to decorate the movement the same way and some bozo working in TAG Heuer.

The only problem with it is the blue screws. The right thing to do is to send the buyer a pair of greyed screws.

for 300 euros, can't complain about it much even if it is a swiss 7750 finished to look like a caliber 16 by some watchmaker because that's what I figure what it would cost anyways. so chill the [censored] out dude

Ok, maybe I'm just missing a point here. If it's all right to sell any franken watches or movements as "genuine", it will make some transactions easier in the future. If someone receives a franken, which was described and sold as genuine, the case can be closed by saying: "Maybe I'll send you some parts, but they look very similar anyway."

[jmb]

Unfuc%^ngbelievable. You get a full refund for the movement, get other work performed at the same time, and you complain because you are not getting the additional work for free? I know how I would handle this...

[_brian_]

if you got paranoid and then made him undo the work...

I did not get paranoid, but the item I received was different from that how it was described and sold to me.

[RWG Technical]

Unbelievable.

So now we decide by comparing pictures on the internet what is genuine and what isn't, based on nothing more than the colour of a screw and the "finish" on the return spring. Guess the fact that screws can be any colour and that depending on the photographer, lighting, angle, etc, metal parts look very different.

Add another to the banned list...

In the 6 years I have been on RWG, this is by far the worse case of slander and abuse of a long time trusted memeber I have ever seen, I am totally appalled at this post, simply disgusting.