JEKS Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Hypothesis: This hobby is good, not bad, for genuine watch manufacturers. Rationale: I think my situation is probably more common than the converse. I am close to 'success' as judged by income, but certainly not rich or without monetary worries. I can 'pull off' a gen watch or two based on my occupation, but in the <$20k range. I couldn't explain a $100k Patek to my friends/colleagues if I had to. I feel that the rep market has allowed me to touch/feel/experience watches that I would not have if I had to buy them. I might have bought one, possible another, traded a few times in my life, and that would have been the extent of my luxury watch involvement. In fact, I own several reps now which are excellent quality, and it has guided me to the following thoughts; I can own several nice watches within reason. e.g. I am expanding the luxury market by leaving mid-tier brands for higher tier brands which I could actually buy at present. I know what I like. Much better, I might add, than if I owned a gen. I feel that owning a gen would force 'fake' satisfaction on me, causing me to defend a poor fit as I put out a wad of cash for same. I would be boxed into a corner, not wanting to appear a fool who put out $10k for a watch that ultimately didn't work for me. Looked great in the store, not so much on my arm with my fashion sense, etc... I will eventually buy these higher end brands. Yes, I am now cognizant of the quality diff. between luxury brands and their reps. I showed up at a reunion with close friends. I was wearing a BK TW best sub. A good bud was wearing the gen. Let me tell you, the diff is obvious. Good thing we were all hammered. Being a technical geeky type, I've been thinking of taking some watch-smith classes at a local technical college. I am hooked, and will spend more money within this industry, not less. So, there we have it, my defense of the rep community. Let the $50 Time Square/Canal Street crap exist. Noone thinks they are real. The high end rep market likely contributes + dollars to the gen community, not -. -J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrboombasteke Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Interesting hypothesis with lots of valid points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Reps are definitely a good way to test drive some different designs and styles, no doubt. But they're also fun to play with. I've learned more with reps than I ever would have with gens... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbiesrock Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Reps are definitely a good way to test drive some different designs and styles, no doubt. But they're also fun to play with. I've learned more with reps than I ever would have with gens... Agreed with everything here. And I'd also add that, having toyed with a few different watches, I've actually found what I like and what I don't like, and would be far less averse to spending decent money on a high quality gen. I wouldn't have been in the position to risk liking it long term if I wasn't sure it suited me, so I agree with the OP that I would say high quality reps actually drive gen sales that would not otherwise have been possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donerix Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 I used to make a lot more money about 10-15 years ago than today and I liked watches and owned several gens throughout the years (Breitling Navitimer, Rolex TT Sub, SS Daytona, Tudor Big Block, Panerai Submersible to name a few). I knew very little about watches then (still can't remember which model PAM I actually owned in the late 90's) and of course never even thought about taking a look inside. Today I don't handle a watch without popping up the hood and checking it out. I have shaved off crown guards and lugs, torched dials and hands in my toaster oven and even made some minor repairs to movements (let's not talk about the collateral damage on the way ). This hobby has been very rewarding in so many ways: learning about the technology, testing one's creativity and ingenuity (I still remember the fist pumping moment when I managed to re-attach my first set of hand and the watch actually started to run again) and I met some of the nicest and most interesting people all over the world sharing the love for timepieces without caring about somebody's status or account balance. As for the famous watch brands loosing out because of us: reps are just an entry drug, so many of our real junkies here end up with more gens sooner or later than many regular watch buyers and have spent a small fortune in over priced gen parts on the way ($400 Rolex endlinks and bezel inserts - that cost nothing to produce - come to mind I honestly even feel that I don't have to justify my hobby any longer. When asked about the provenance of a watch on my wrist I can usually say "I built it" which always sounds better than "I bought it at Tourneau" and even gets people interested in the details of our hobby (of course the French customs officer at Nice airport couldn't agree, but I am sure her husband is still wearing my 205A ....). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoever Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 (of course the French customs officer at Nice airport couldn't agree, but I am sure her husband is still wearing my 205A ....). really?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Hypothesis: This hobby is good, not bad, for genuine watch manufacturers. Rationale: I think my situation is probably more common than the converse. I am close to 'success' as judged by income, but certainly not rich or without monetary worries. I can 'pull off' a gen watch or two based on my occupation, but in the <$20k range. I couldn't explain a $100k Patek to my friends/colleagues if I had to. I feel that the rep market has allowed me to touch/feel/experience watches that I would not have if I had to buy them. I might have bought one, possible another, traded a few times in my life, and that would have been the extent of my luxury watch involvement. In fact, I own several reps now which are excellent quality, and it has guided me to the following thoughts; I can own several nice watches within reason. e.g. I am expanding the luxury market by leaving mid-tier brands for higher tier brands which I could actually buy at present. I know what I like. Much better, I might add, than if I owned a gen. I feel that owning a gen would force 'fake' satisfaction on me, causing me to defend a poor fit as I put out a wad of cash for same. I would be boxed into a corner, not wanting to appear a fool who put out $10k for a watch that ultimately didn't work for me. Looked great in the store, not so much on my arm with my fashion sense, etc... I will eventually buy these higher end brands. Yes, I am now cognizant of the quality diff. between luxury brands and their reps. I showed up at a reunion with close friends. I was wearing a BK TW best sub. A good bud was wearing the gen. Let me tell you, the diff is obvious. Good thing we were all hammered. Being a technical geeky type, I've been thinking of taking some watch-smith classes at a local technical college. I am hooked, and will spend more money within this industry, not less. So, there we have it, my defense of the rep community. Let the $50 Time Square/Canal Street crap exist. Noone thinks they are real. The high end rep market likely contributes + dollars to the gen community, not -. -J I totally agree with you about the false satisfaction of a gen, afterall, it was trying a gen Submariner which made me think "That's not worth it, I'll buy a fake..." Personally, I don't think reps take any $$s away from the gen market, simply because someone who buys a rep (for whatever their reason) was not going to buy the gen (for whatever reason) so those $$s would never have gone to the gen manufacturer anyway, but I do think reps can contribute $$s to the gen market, if someone tries a rep, and then decides to get the gen (of course the French customs officer at Nice airport couldn't agree, but I am sure her husband is still wearing my 205A ....). They took it off you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 They took it off you? Why does this surprise anyone? This is what French customs are like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Hypothesis: This hobby is good, not bad, for genuine watch manufacturers. Great argument, but I disagree with the hypothesis. This hobby is bad for genuine watch manufacturers. We represent an utterly tiny portion of their market and devalue their brand. I always use a fictional account of a rich guy who wants to buy a genuine Rolex Yachtmaster to match his new yacht, right up to the point he sees his janitor wearing one. Don't tell me we are good for Rolex at that point. The Janitor may aspire to a genuine Rolex, but his boss would have bought five. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 "I've learned more with reps than I ever would have with gens..." Me too...mostly about the DG 2813 and Seagull ST6 though. Seriously, I learned on genuine watches but it seems to me that replicas are harder to work on. If you can successfully work on higher grade replicas...you can fix just about anything. Take The Zigmeister for instance. The knowledge base of RWG is probably 10x what the TZ, VRF, WUS etc knowledge base is. It also seems like RWG newbys wise up quickly (if they are serious) while TZ, VRF, WUS etc newbys catch on slowly because the member base can not (or will not) answer their questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donerix Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 They took it off you? Yes, first I was threatened with a fine of twice the amount of the gen (which would have been North of $100K, but after she looked it up and saw that it was a "Stallone" watch, her eyes started glowing and she gave me a 100 Euro fine and kept the watch. The knowledge base of RWG is probably 10x what the TZ, VRF, WUS etc knowledge base is. It also seems like RWG newbys wise up quickly (if they are serious) while TZ, VRF, WUS etc newbys catch on slowly because the member base can not (or will not) answer their questions. While there seem to be some very knowledgeable members there I agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Why does this surprise anyone? This is what French customs are like. I didn't realize they were so strict on things that they'd actually confiscate a watch someone was wearing Sure, a suitcase full, fair enough, but off someone's wrist is going a bit far Then again, this is a country which won't allow bluetooth to be active in public, so I guess I shouldn't be so surprised... Great argument, but I disagree with the hypothesis. This hobby is bad for genuine watch manufacturers. We represent an utterly tiny portion of their market and devalue their brand. I always use a fictional account of a rich guy who wants to buy a genuine Rolex Yachtmaster to match his new yacht, right up to the point he sees his janitor wearing one. Don't tell me we are good for Rolex at that point. The Janitor may aspire to a genuine Rolex, but his boss would have bought five. And probably gets asked "Is that a real Rolex?!" every time he goes out. I remember reading about someone who's boss sold his gen Rolexes because he was sick of keep getting asked, despite the fact he collected vintage cars Yes, first I was threatened with a fine of twice the amount of the gen (which would have been North of $100K, but after she looked it up and saw that it was a "Stallone" watch, her eyes started glowing and she gave me a 100 Euro fine and kept the watch. Damn, that's scary. I'll be sure never to wear a rep through French customs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Damn, that's scary. I'll be sure never to wear a rep through French customs I warned everyone of this years ago. Cartier and LVMH train French customs to spot fakes and they also lobby the govt on counterfeit issues. It's mostly to do with Louis Vuitton bags, but they do watches too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 I warned everyone of this years ago. Cartier and LVMH train French customs to spot fakes and they also lobby the govt on counterfeit issues. It's mostly to do with Louis Vuitton bags, but they do watches too. Yeah, I knew they were pretty hot on the issue of counterfeiting, I just didn't realize they were so hot on it as to take stuff off people at customs which were obviously personal property, rather than stuff for resale in bulk (which I would totally understand...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbiesrock Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 I warned everyone of this years ago. Cartier and LVMH train French customs to spot fakes and they also lobby the govt on counterfeit issues. It's mostly to do with Louis Vuitton bags, but they do watches too. Threatening a fine of twice the value of the watch has zero legal basis. I would be outraged that they can even claim the authority to know whether a watch is a rep or not. And PANERAI is Italian/Swiss, not French. What a load of [censored], but I can imagine the French being retarded enough to try that. Bags I can understand, but I would be impressed if they could pick a rep wristwatch from a metre away. I would love to take that course in rep detection, sign me up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usil Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 The many times I have gone through French customs at CDG I could have driven a stolen bus through and they would have noticed. Hell 90% of the time there is no one even there at the customs area as you leave the baggage area. Usil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prdubis Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 (edited) Actually, when customs officers have doubts about an item that might be counterfeit, they can keep it until a brand representative states about it. if it's obvious, they just seize the item and you'll have to pay a fee to close the file and stop pursuits. The amount of the fee depends of the item, quantity, purpose (personal use or resale), its value and if you are a first timer. You can refuse to pay but then you go on trial. Two years ago, I ordered gen A&F clothes from A&F original website. The parcel was seized and delayed for 3 months before being cleared. I called several times to know what was going on, they were always saying the items were going under verification. Finally, I got a phone call asking me to come to customs department as officers had to ask me some questions. They were suspicious because A&F clothes labels were saying they were made in several countries, so they sent one of my tee to the brand representative in France, then in the USA to know if they were gen or not! After 3 months, nobody was able to confirm they were gen (and they were as I ordered them on the website!!!) and they finally released the parcel. I spent 2 hours there, and had to explain why I did order clothes in the USA, why there was different sizes, and so on... Sp guys be careful and don't mess with French customs, they can really annoy you... --- I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=43.382103,-1.654883 Edited August 26, 2011 by PrDubis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbiesrock Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 No way! Haha come and live in Australia, touch wood we don't have jack-offs stopping rep/counterfeit items like that. Customs is far too concerned with drugs and plants to worry about reps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 "Haha come and live in Australia, touch wood we don't have jack-offs stopping rep/counterfeit items like that. Customs is far too concerned with drugs and plants to worry about reps." I think US Customs is much like Aus Customs when it comes to replica watches...they snag a replica now and then to keep the swiss brand importers off their backs but in reality, I doubt they care. French Customs...while 3 customs agents are hassling a tourist about his watch, is anyone 'watching' for the guy with a grenade under his hat? The USA is far worse...while 5 TSA agents are body searching a 70 year old grandmother and turning her 10 month old grandson upside down and shaking him like a dustrag...10 shifty eyed potential terrorists walk by without a glance from TSA agents in order to be PC. Absurdity is the basic rule of all governments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 The USA is far worse...while 5 TSA agents are body searching a 70 year old grandmother and turning her 10 month old grandson upside down and shaking him like a dustrag...10 shifty eyed potential terrorists walk by without a glance from TSA agents in order to be PC. You mean they let white Christians go through unchecked? They're the most likely terrorists in the US. Racial profiling doesn't work because it moves resources from the most likely group of people to merely the most feared. And yes, at CDG, they're just a large airport, but somewhere like Tours or Nice, they'll get bored with the three flights a day. And yes, legally, they can take counterfeit off you and, as this thread shows, they sometimes (albeit rarely) do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 You mean they let white Christians go through unchecked? They're the most likely terrorists in the US. Racial profiling doesn't work because it moves resources from the most likely group of people to merely the most feared. And yes, at CDG, they're just a large airport, but somewhere like Tours or Nice, they'll get bored with the three flights a day. And yes, legally, they can take counterfeit off you and, as this thread shows, they sometimes (albeit rarely) do. I wonder what they would make of a sterile homage? I'm thinking I might need to add one to my collection for if I ever wind up visiting France again, but wouldn't want to wind up getting fined or that confiscated instead of the same thing happening with a rep... Maybe I should just get one of those Casio watches the suicide bombers like for such trips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 I wonder what they would make of a sterile homage? Well, technically, it's legal. Debatable, though. Ps. I have travelled through French customs a lot and never had a problem. Like I say, it's rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Well, technically, it's legal. Debatable, though. Ps. I have travelled through French customs a lot and never had a problem. Like I say, it's rare. This is my thinking, it's legal, but I'm concerned that if they might still take a dim view of it not being a branded gen watch, I'm wondering if that would attract the same attention/consequences as a rep... I've visited France a couple of times on coach trips, so never really gone through customs as anything more than a guy making sure everyone on the coach had their passports. Never had any issues with customs in Spain, and equally, no issue wearing a GMT through Japanese customs either, despite there being a wall of counterfeit goods right by the customs department, and the fact that I 'drew attention to myself' when leaving, as I forgot to remove my belt and its camera case when going though the scanner (with said GMT sitting in the tray with my phone ) I think I just got lucky on that occasion I'm wondering if maybe the 'issue' was because Donerix was wearing a PAM, which is a pretty noticeable watch, where a DateJust or Seamaster might have slipped under the radar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 I warned everyone of this years ago. Cartier and LVMH train French customs to spot fakes and they also lobby the govt on counterfeit issues. It's mostly to do with Louis Vuitton bags, but they do watches too. It would be a real bish to have them confescate a gen,I mean what could you actually do. Fly back to France with boxs and doxs? Scarry stuff actually. But I must remember,"we will always have Paris" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 It would be a real bish to have them confescate a gen,I mean what could you actually do. Fly back to France with boxs and doxs? Scarry stuff actually. But I must remember,"we will always have Paris" They could easily phone the AD while you're sat there to verify. There's another tale on the rep forums about a guy getting nabbed by Canadian customs, and they asked which AD he got it from. I forget the exact story now and am beginning to sound like Grandpa Simpson, which was the fashion at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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