The perfect Solid End Link - Let's do it!

[chefcook]

Hey Guys,

Maybe you followed my recent Submariner built based on a Sean case (Etaswiss.net). While the case is superb the bracelet end links are so so. A genuine bracelet is extremely expensive at roughly 950 Euros, which would represent about two third of my built cost to date. So I am searching for a better bracelet....

All you builders of Sub / GMT / Explorer of the five digit references know the problem: All rep bracelet have terribly flawed end links.

To be more precise:

• The noob end links: Terribly finished, cut outs to access the spring bars are horrible and the overall shape is mediocre. They are made from three pieces, which is incorrect. But they are wide enough for the typical rep case at about 20.2mm
  
• The TW Best end links: They look good, the quality is nice, but they are not wide enough for all cases with relatively exact 20mm width. In addition they use a three part construction while the geniune end links are made from one piece!
  
• The CN end links: Shitty in every aspect. But made from one piece, which is great. Usually a lot too narrow.
  
• ETAswiss end links: The dimensions and finish are not the best but they are a one piece design and are of high quality. Because of the less then sufficiently good finish they are not a good choice and usually they are a little too narrow.
  
  So, what do we need?
  • A one piece construction
    
  • Gen like dimensions
    
  • Takes 2mm spring bars
    
  • Wide enough to be used on most cases (20.25mm - if you need less just grind it down)
    
  • High quality
    

  To make it short: There is no end link on the rep market available that fulfills those requirements.

  But if we would have such an end link it would be usable on Submariner Date, GMT Master, Explorer and Explorer II of five digit reference numbers, e.g. 16610, 16570, 16710, 16700, 114270 ...

  The rest of the bracelet including clasps is already available in great quality.

  Could this be a solution?

  I spent some time the last days taking measurements of various end links and rep cases and tried to implement that in a CAD design.

  This is the result:

  

  

  

  

  

  

  It has all the features at least I am looking for in a bracelet end link for our reps. It is designed to take 2mm spring bars and to be mounted to the bracelet with a 9mm long single shoulder spring bar of 1.8mm diameter.

  This is just a first design and I'd be very happy about your input.

  My goal is to produce a small run of those end links, maybe complete bracelets using noobmariner bracelets with the shown end links mounted to it.

  And besides your input about the end link design I'd be very happy about feedback showing interest to gauge a reasonable number of end links I should produce...

  Thanks for your time guys!

[specialvat]

Best of luck with the project.

[its_urabus]

Nice cadd work!

My concerns are this: Getting a bracelet apart without damage so that you can use your end links would be difficult. You also have to know that the pin connecting the first link to the sel is of a diameter to fit the hole you have machined or it will be loose.

I think the entire bracelet Side needs to be modeled and fabricated or it will not come together in a gen like manner.

Just my thoughts...

[chefcook]

I thought about that, too. All bracelets I took apart use 1mm bars to connect end links and bracelet. That is OK with the type of spring bars I want to use. The gen uses spring bars to connect end links and bracelet, too, by the way.

Ubi and I already disassembled bracelets to reuse a noob bracelet with WM9 V1 / TW end links. It is doable, definetely. I can understand that some might not be wanting to disassemble a bracelet theirselves, so I might be offering complete bracelets using noob links and my own end links.

[its_urabus]

Now you are talking! Let me know if you need a beta tester or a funding source.

I can throw one on my Sean 16610!

Edited January 11, 2012 by its_urabus

[chefcook]

So my plan to continue is the following:

1. Discuss the dimensions here. I want it perfect and for that I definitely need RWG's support and know how.
   
2. Produce some prototypes, most probably two or three sets. If it turns out to be a good SEL on the common cases go on...
   
3. Produce a small series of parts.
   

I am not going to make any money from this. I just want to have the best possible rep and I am not convinced that future might bring anything interesting in that regard from the factories.

The parts certainly won't be cheap but honestly: Would maybe 150 Euros keep you off a serious improvement of your WM9 / TW Best / Sean case if people are willing to spend a lot more money on a less obvious genuine crystal?

Just for clarification: That is just an estimate. At the moment I have no idea what we can expect cost wise...

[grifter]

I'd be down for 2.

Great project, let me know if you need anything

[its_urabus]

Well since I'm considering dropping $1200 on a gen bracelet to fix the issue once and for all, Yea I would consider a 150€ option first!

[Tribal]

So nice idea to make some SELS.

So best way to take Gen SEL's with right measurements. A exact copy of them, but to

fit on a Rep Bracelet.

Do you have access to a CNC Machine?

If so you need also the right programming to get it

right.

Maybe a member has good contacts to the Chinese watch factory's to produce them?

Members climb in.

[Tribal]

By the way the middle Link of a gen SEL is much more rounded than on every Rep SEL I know.

I compared all of them and no one is like gen.

[chefcook]

I'am already working on V2 of the design. Will post new pics and detailed measurements tomorrow. Would welcome your thoughts, especially on the measurements.

[its_urabus]

What kills me is why don't they just make on correctly? I'm looking down at my Inge bracelet and it's way more intricate than a 93250. And its perfect! Well the clasp isnt perfect, but the rest is tight, and exact and finished beautifully. I just don't understand. It's almost like rolex let's them make almost perfect parts, but will squash them if they are 100%.

[Tribal]

It's every time the same when it comes to Rolex Reps.

It's so easy to get it right when u see other complicated Reps like Hublot, AP etc.

They give a [censored] of it that's it.

@Chefcook thanks for your effort on this!

Edited January 11, 2012 by Tribal

[Eiderdaus]

Please bear in mind that the gen SEL are shorter than average Rep SEL, the lugbars on Gen look longer as on every rep. Always a detail nobody talks about. I could send you maybe my Gen bracelet for measurement if you are interested, just drop me a pm and we can discuss max

[kbh]

I think you may be going under the assumption that all rep cases are drilled in the same position and that a gen bracelet would fit perfectly on all rep cases. You may be disappointed.

[chefcook]

Eiderdaus: I'll contact you - having a gen bracelet for one or two days to take some pictures and measurements would be great! Actually I think that the genuine lugs really are longer than on most reps. A pre-SEL GMT Master II of a friend as well as my genuine Datejust 16200 (same case as Explorer 114270 but without SELs, too) show slightly longer lugs than the typical rep cases. The only rep case I know that has the right lug length is the ETAswiss case.

KBH: At least Noobmariner, WM9 V1, SA3135 and ETAswiss take the same bracelets with very minor work to the end links.

All: Just to be not misunderstood - I don't want to produce a 1:1 bracelet end link. Actually it will be off in several dimensions, e.g. width and length. But my goal is to have a set of end links that eliminates one of the biggest tells on reps, the gap between case and end link while having gen like proportions and a gen like fit on the typical rep cases. I think that is far more helpful and more important than having a bracelet with 1:1 dimensions.

IMO the Noobmariner is not the widely used franken base anymore it used to be a few years ago. With the current availability of TW Best / WM9 V1 cases and Sean's ETAswiss case I'd like to concentrate on those for those project. They are available, they are high quality items and most of the franken builders use those cases. In addition they come with good bracelets that are worth an upgrade.

[tabularasa415]

I'm in. As far as research/production, I remember a fellow member in Canada using his father's shop CNC to produce some amazing custom PAM bridge plates. He sold the movement in the parts section. It may be worth digging that thread up and contacting him for his help. I will. Try to find it soon.

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[chefcook]

I don't want to decide who will manufacture them at this stage and I am not worried about not finding someone to produce those parts for us, having roughly 200 CNC shops in a range of 50 miles around my home including such companies as Fricker (watch case manufacturer for many brands, e.g. Precista and Sinn). Quality first and as I am desiging in metric units in accordance with DIN standards I'd prefer a company using the same standards and units.

[rosnik]

Nice Idea Chefcook !

I'm in for one couple .

BTW: how to dismount first SEL link from bracelet? .

[tabularasa415]

Well, I'm in for funding when it's time for that portion of the process.

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[DragonWrangler]

Just an observation from a "noob" that has never done a mod. Can one of the latest DSSD versions be trimmed down

[Tribal]

Just an observation from a "noob" that has never done a mod. Can one of the latest DSSD versions be trimmed down

It can be done for shure.

I have trimmed SEL's to get a better look.

Better is a nice new SEL without hand trimming.

[chefcook]

So today I had the opportunity to play with a genuine Submainer 16610. Unfortunately I couldn't take measurements but some important observations were made.

Those observations were my base for V2 data:

See were the radius of the end links meet the case? On gen watches it is tangential on the surface underneath the bezel. Maybe words are not a good description, so I made a picture:

This applies to both the inner and outer part of the end link and resembles the slope of the lugs.

The V2 end link was designed in a different way. For the first draft I took measurements of some end links and converted that to a model. This time I did it the other way and made a model of the area of the case between the lugs and fitted the end link model to that. That was the easier way and is most probably a lot more reliable regarding the measurements.

Now that you had some nice pics to look at I need something from you, measurements to be more precise.

So, get your calipers and some time

The three values for A, B and C are in my opinion most important for a nice looking SEL. All sub cases I took measurements of have a diameter of 38.5mm between the lugs and 37mm diameter of the notch the lower part of the end link attaches to (the area where marking C is located in the drawing). I'd really appreciate measurements of your actual case for A, B and C.

For example with my Sean case A should be around 4.8mm to look nice, B is exactly 5mm and C 0.3mm measured AT THE CASE (do not take measurements of your end links please!).

[perry563]

If you end up offering a complete finished bracelet including these end links put me down for at least one. Incredible work here.

[sangupta]

Great idea. Hope you can make them. I am in for two full bracelets