Interesting comments about cloning Rolex movements

[automatico]

In the March 27, 2012 post titled '1530 Component Authentication'...a Noober Goober is worried about a $2 1520 case screw (while the fact that his case is rotted out does not bother him at all), progresses on down to where one of the more experienced posters says:

"With the technology we have today, I feel that the fake watches and dials "they" make are so good that it is impossible to differentiate them from the ones made by Rolex."

The obvious questions that jump out (to me anyway) are:

What case/cases is he talking about?...Yuki? Phong? or ??

What dial?...Yuki? IG44? or ??

Maybe something we have never seen...or passed as genuine?

Are some of 'our' cases and dials really this good? I kinda doubt it.

Would some of them fool a 'VRF Expert'? Probably.

Are some of these "Experts' actually this green behind the gills and really not the 'Experts' they think they are? If so, where are the 'Expert Experts?' who really know the answers?

Imho...cases might not be 'easy' to make (considering machinery startup cost), but it seems to me that they would be very easy to produce 100% same as genuine because vintage dials/hands show signs of aging and have radium or tritium and newly made cases do not need this to pass. I have read where some of the 'Experts' were down to spotting the short center leg in the 'E' in rolEx inside the casebacks to determine genuine from replica cases and to me, that is getting pretty damn close.

Besides, I think by now everyone understands that the difference between a $600 genspec 316L Yuki etc 1680 case and a $50 316L nonspec 1680 case is all in the C&C settings.

Btw, wonder if RWC makes their own 1680/5513/1655/1675/1019 etc replacement cases or farms them out to a specialty shop?

The 'digital fakes' post by 'Philip' is very interesting as he seems to know what he is talking about.

[DeeKa]

The replacement cases are not of current production.

As with all spares, they are from the original production run - just not engraved - and when they used all, it's over.

Dee

[freddy333]

The obvious questions that jump out (to me anyway) are:

What case/cases is he talking about?...Yuki? Phong? or ??

What dial?...Yuki? IG44? or ??

I think the assumption there was that, if everything but the case is gen, pretty much any decent rep case would be undetectable from normal viewing distances

Around the same time that thread began on VRF, there was a thread here on rwg where someone replaced the case from a standard GMT rep with a gen. My 1st thought was why would they do that since everything else in the watch -- dial, hands, crown, bracelet -- was easily identifiable as standard rep fare. Cases that most better quality reps come with are the least likely part to be identified as a rep, so a gen case is probably 1 of the least cost-effective places to put your money since upgrades there result in the least improvement. That said, once you arrive at the point where everything else in the watch is gen, you would be crazy not to swap the case out for a gen.

[danielv2000]

Very interesting thread. They are right, though. Solid rep case, gen movement and rep parts... hard to detect.

[freddy333]

This is probably not news to many of the senior members, but I think 2 posts from this thread were interesting & insightful -

Why would anyone fake a 1530 mainplate..I mean zillions exist. Sure if you were going to fake an entire movement...again...but what would be the real cost effectiveness of that...they are not hard to come by....but to make a fake mainplate...and mate it to genuine components...I can't see any real need or reason to do that...but well...anything is possible.

In the future..we can all have 6541's by borrowing one and putting it in the replicator...better sell all your vintage watches now...while they are still worth something.

Respond to this message

*Philip*

"I just came across this new way of producing fakes 2 years ago

during a raid on a factory in southern China. In the midst of all

the commotion-raids are noisy, disorganised and happen really fast

I spotted quite by chance a stack of innocuous-looking software discs.

Upon subsequent analysis, we discovered that the counterfeiters made smart use of digital technology

and laser scanners in order to reverse-engineer highly complicated mechanical watches. I was also fascinated by this use of technology .../..."

Interview from - JEAN DANIEL PASCHE President of the federation of the Swiss Watch Industry.

Tommy, laser technology made possible to produce high quality fake parts at the SAME

cost of lower quality ones. Sofwares and lasers are now doing the job so cost is no more

a problem. Then about dials I was told SEVERAL times by Geneva that labs exams

are now necessary to tell genuine from fakes.

And remember that "of course" we still can detect fakes but as Pasche said, by essence

good copies are undetectable so how do you now know that this genuine item is ...genuine?

Of course dealers will always tell you they can detect fakes but the producers wont

tell you the same.

A last word about Rolex spare parts sold new in "unopened packaging", since 2 or 3 years already, fake parts are sold in fake packagings.

[dluddy]

Very interesting. The light is going off in Gotham me thinks

[basketbob951]

))

[alligoat]

I will test soon to an AD in Paris my 1665 Francken.. Let's have fun

I would never do this and I doubt any of the other oldtimers would either. We can enjoy our frankens, but it's not to our advantage to put these watches in the AD's face. Likewise, I would never try to misrepresent my franken and sell it as a gen.

[dluddy]

I would never do this and I doubt any of the other oldtimers would either. We can enjoy our frankens, but it's not to our advantage to put these watches in the AD's face. Likewise, I would never try to misrepresent my franken and sell it as a gen.

True Dat

[superlative]

Unless you're trying to rip somebody off, I don't see the point of having a clone movement. This is a pretty dangerous move for the rep makers. And, just having the thought of walking into an AD with a rep should get anybody banned from any rep forum.

Edited March 30, 2012 by superlative

[Logan]

Clone movements are just another step in making our reps more accurate, just like a/r, decent dials, and accurate crown guards. Don't forget you can't have a totally accurate modern Rolex externally with an ETA due to the crown position.

If we're not going to have clone movements because they are too accurate then we may as well all buy canal st grade reps and forget the whole accuracy thing all together.

[highoeyazmuhudee]

wouldnt worry about the clone movements bringing the industry down over night, theyre pretty inaccurate as is, a novice can see the differences pretty much right away.

[danielv2000]

wouldnt worry about the clone movements bringing the industry down over night, theyre pretty inaccurate as is, a novice can see the differences pretty much right away.

That's another thing I don't understand. How hard would it be to make a top quality clone movement?

[freddy333]

Assuming you have the tooling, cloning the movement is relatively easy. But creating an accurate clone that can be sold for $200 (the average price of a good rep) is not quite so easy.

[basketbob951]

))

[Logan]

My pick is we're going to see a lot more clone movements over the next few years, not just Rolex either. Partly this is driven by the eta shortage, and partly by the never ending push for realism from us on the boards, and the customers in china who are probably the real market for the factories.

Personally I'm all for it. I'm really looking forward to stripping and servicing my first Rolex clone movement! We've been wanting better and better reps, this's is just the next step in that natural evolution

[FxrAndy]

its in the rules if you have not read them, and the reason is that it brings us bad attention from the AD which then goes up the chain to Corperate and then back down the chain in the way of tighter parts supply, law suits ect

http://www.rwg.cc/to...ur-forum-rules/

[25] - Do not visit an AD (Authentic Dealer) with your replica watch and show it of as the real thing. If you do so, we are not interested in hearing about it. Such post will be deleted.

[automatico]

"That's another thing I don't understand. How hard would it be to make a top quality clone movement?"

It's like Freddy said:

"Assuming you have the tooling, cloning the movement is relatively easy."

Take the 'obsolete' Eta 28xx for instance...it is perfectly legal to manufacture a clone of this movement because the patent has expired and it is relatively easy to make them as it is all reverse engineering, nothing new has to be designed.

The catch is putting a trademark on them. When someone puts the Eta trademark on the clone, they become illegal.

I would guess the same is true for 1530/70 base rolex movements because they went into production in the late 1950's/early 1960's but I doubt there is enough demand for a 'perfect clone' of the 1530/70, 3035, or 3135 except for the replica market as shown by the new 'China 3135'. Otoh, if this particular 3135 clone movement did not have the rolex trademark on it, it might not be illegal today...I do not know for sure if it has 'timeed out' yet but they came out around 1986/87.

Sooner or later, parts makers might go into making reversers, winding rotors, hair springs, balance wheels etc for various rolex movements because RWC is cuttng off the parts supply. It basically depends on the popularity of rolex watches but replacement cases, dials, and bracelets seem to have given vintage rolex 'Frankensteins' a new lease on life.

At the present...a donor watch can be purchased for a movement or a complete set of parts without spending a whole lot of money but as time goes by this may change to where it would be profitable to manufacture most of the unsigned internal parts as generics.

It seems even today there are no problems with making generic replacement parts for the various rolex movements as long as they do not have the rolex trademark on them and many movement parts are available for the 1530/70, 3035, and 3135 such as train wheels, stems, mainsprings etc. Same goes for case parts and bracelets.

I bet before long (if not already), that a top of the line vintage 'Supercase' and 'Superdial' with properly stamped numbers/letters and genuine movement will be very, very hard to identify.

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[freddy333]

In general, I think Logan & Automatic are both correct. There is definitely a market for older Rolex movements & movement parts, which the Chinese (& others) will eventually address, if they have not already done so. However, as is the case with most time-limited legislation, Rolex is often excepted from the rules. Although their patent may have run out some time ago & in spite of the fact that they neither make, service, nor provide new parts for their older movements, my guess is that the US & EU will continue to treat clones (with or without Rolex branding) different than clones of other Swiss-made movements (eg, ETAs).

[Valty]

Its just a matter of budgect..Some built are quite undetectable but you ve got to put the price on it

It wd fool a large part of VRF and many AD's...

I will test soon to an AD in Paris my 1665 Francken.. Let's have fun

The fact is :

- You have to read AND understand the forum rules. It is always better to do not do this. You have not seen a gen 1665 in person, so you cannot know if the AD will see (or not) it's the gen deal.

- If you want to continue to can make great franken, it's better to keep this hobby for us. Law pursuits can be very fast counter the great persons who are delivering good aftermarket products.

But these facts has already been said.

I just want to add a personal message about this - If you want to be considered as a good member here, you will be better to :

- Do not "sell" the same watch to 3 different guys (me in the lot...)

- Answer to the PM's we are sending to you when you are making a sell

- Eventually, explain why you do not want to sell to a person, it is better than radio-silence

- In few words, be a gentleman, and do not have scammer-type comportment, even if you had done a "hyper-franken" watch

I guess you will understand it is not so much appreciated here to have this kind of behavior... At least, I did not appreciate.

R.

EDIT: sorry for thread-crapping, I wanted to say this is very very interesting information showed here automatico, thank you very much !

[SDREW]

There have been generic Rolex movement parts on the market for over 10 years now. Also the asian clone of the 3135 is not a clone, it is a modified 2836-2 dressed up to look like a Rolex 3135, the 3135 is considerably larger. I've been a Rolex collector for over 20 yrs now, since the age of 16....last year I got into Homage watch building, I saw this topic and a couple of others on the 3135 and thought i would FYI you guys in on the sheep in wolfs clothing movement.