Have You Ever Been Caught...

[robertk]

Great Post, Rongoms. Couldn't be better said.

If that were not true, why would we care what brand it is...........!

[Chronus]

True, or we could all get the same watch with Invicta (or another brand) on the dial

Pepsi Seiko anyone?

[bluespower]

I don't even think about being outed anymore. Just wear 'em and enjoy 'em. Anybody got a problem, f--- 'em!

[tvt]

While I would like to rally around Rongoms post and ra ra it (because afterall I more or less agree) I am afraid that I can't because simply put, atleast for myself and I believ others, IT IS NOT TRUE.

Now I have absolutley ZERO alterior motive to lie or be anything other than 100% honest. Yet I have no way of proving how I fel or why I buy fakes other than to just tell you the truth, you can choose to believe me or not but I can't "prove" it either way.

First off this is an age old discussion that I have had on the various boards for years and years. YES, without a doubt MOST people buy them to try and fool people into thinking they have something they do not. And yet there are pletny of collectors who own as many gens and they do fakes. I have more or less equal of both gens and fakes and I buy them for VERY different reasons.

Now before I go on I admit, if all things were equal and the fakes could magically turn into gens sure, i would prefer that. In a perfect world I prefer gens, they are built better, in some cases there is legit history to them and I just flat like them better. So perhpas that put's me in the catagory Rongoms is talking about anyway. But to me gens and fakes are TWO DIFFERNT THINGS.

It is like saying to someone you cannot collect baseball cards because you also collect antique books... they are just different and collected for different reasons.

What I enjoy about the fakes is that pursuit, the hunt, the tracking down the most interesting and unique and accurate fakes. This is not something you get in the world of gens with the exception of certain limited editions. I ALSO enjoy tracking down those very same limited edition gens. I have absolutley ZERO interest in "fooling people" which is not to say that by wearing a fake watch I do not end up fooling some people, but it is NOT the reason I have ever owned one fake. In fact the God's honest truth is that I owned several gens (Rolex, Tag and a few others) before I ever picked up my first quality fake (I did own a stupid canal street fake from 20 years back before I ever bought a gen just for full disclosure).

Anyway, sure most everyone buys these to "fool people" but not EVERYONE does. There is a distinction between claiming one prefers fakes over gens (which I agree is assinine) and the idea that people ONLY buy fakes to fool people.

[tvt]

Iti is an interesting question... I mean I wonder IF money was just ZERO object would I still buy fakes? Who knows but right now I honestly think I would with the understanding that I would sure as hell ALSO be buying gens.

If I could ONLY buy gens OR fakes, be it in my real life or some faatasy money no limit life, I would hands down, no doubt, not think about it twice, easiest no brainer in the world ONLY BUY GENUINES.

But again, that is liek saying do you like Lobster or Pizza better? Well, depends what mood I am in, depends who I am with, depends what the occassion is... there are times I want lobster and times I want pizza. Likewise there are aspects about the fakes, more specifically finding and following thier evolution, which I PREFER to gens. Pretty much everything else I prefer about gens (quality of construction and fine detail work and so on).

So your litmus test would have me on the side of buying gens if I had no choice, but had I still have the choice I think I would to continue to buy BOTH.

BTW, I am one of those folks when asked "would you rather have 10 fakes or 1 gen" would always choose the one gen. But it is NOT a black and white world, we can have both and I really do enjoy them for different but equal reasons.

[sonystyle]

I was called out on my gen Seiko, LOL. (skx007k)

Some moron thought it was a fake Rolex

I told him, no - its a Seiko.

Then he told me that Seiko copied the Rolex divers watch.

So what can I say to that ?

[gioarmani]

Never being caught wearing a rep (yet) , however I've been "caught" wearing a gen Tag and gotten into a big argument about the gen being a rep and not a gen. My "friend" was convinced it was a rep but didn't have any good arguments .

After that episode I thought, what the heck is the point of spending all that money on a gen and people might still think it's a fake (Rolex-syndrome). So now I mainly buy reps

That is one of the funniest goddamn avatars i've ever seen!

[Devedander]

Right, This is, of course, a largely acedemic discussion. (well, it is now that i've called [censored] on nearly everyone on the board and no one's really disagreed.)

I've arrived at about a 6:1 ratio of gens:reps but there are still some watches that are ONLY availble in rep form without spending literally tens of thousands of dollars. I enjoy having some of those in my collection and i'll keep buying the ones that interest me.....but am I going to "tell the story" when someone who doesn't know any better asks what it is?

Well, would you? :_)

Well no matter what you want to say there is some rather undeniable logic which is that there are watches with better QC and as good or better performance which visually copy the many of the same watches our gens do at your local dept store for less than we pay for reps... so since those can't be the reason one goes for reps, it leaves only a few other choices... and I think those choices were outlined above.

Then again I also think it comes down to what you define as trying to fool people... obviously by simply wearing a rep you are trying to fool people, but I think most people here consider "trying to fool people" to deny when you are questioned if it's a fake... although technically that isn't what it means.

[tvt]

Hmmmmm...

Well, a couple thoughts.

While I agree that there are many no name dept. store watches that cost FAR less then our fakes but also have FAR better quality control AND a warrenty I must disagree that they mimic all styles and designs. Rolex sure, but I have not really seen a Panerai knock off that is worthy of a second look. but your point is valid and true. I would buy a genuien PAM and a fake PAM but probably not a PAM style Fossil or something along those lines. I am not really sure why but I really don't think fooling people comes into the equation for me. It is probably more because I enjoy the idea of comparing the fakes to the gens to see just how close they can get. Obviously a legal knock off (meaning a "fashion" watch in the style of a famous brand but without the trade mark infringement) can only go so far. You end up with somehting that looks sort of like a PAM (or Rolex or what have you) while the fakes actually try to mimic every last detail. It is that quest to copy that I find interesting.

I guess the question is WHY do I find that interesting? Probably for the same reason people find it interesting to see how movies are made or how a house is decorated and resold for a profit. These are sort of mundane things but it can be intriguing to see. I enjoy being a spectator and watching how the fakes mimic the gens and try to keep up with them, constantly being refined and changed. What can I tell you, I just find it fun. I rarely ever wear ANY of my fakes either. From time to time sure but I would say I wear my gens 30-1 over fakes easily. Mostly they sit in a watch box being part of a collection. Stupid sort of, yes, but also enjoyable for me.

So, for me there is a difference between dept. store brands and fakes and that is where the enjoyment lies.

And sure, on SOME level when you put a fake watch on you know you might fool people, but that might not be your goal. Why can someone not wear a watch simply because THEY enjoy it and for no other reason?

But yes, I agree it is a bit academic. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that the reason fake watches are made, bought and sold is to fool people. It is a way for folks to try and be something that they are not. It is just not that way for EVERYONE is all.

[dabom]

well you're wrong. I've owned gen Rolexes, and in fact most of the watches in my collection are gens. The reason why I buy reps is because I love the quality and looks and it's terrific for what I use them for: beaters.

I buy reps of only the highest quality - inside and out. That means: ETA movements, sapphire crystals, and superb finishing. In my opinion, the reps I have would be worth at least $1000 each if they were legit. So the fact that I paid less than $300 makes them the perfect beater watch. I can't bring myself to use a gen Rolex as a beater - to my own principles, it's wasteful. Now everyone's level of "wastefulness" is different, but to me a beater watch is less than $500. I don't think a Rolex is worth $3-$5k, but I do believe I am getting a bargain for $200. I'd be insane not to think that.

That's why I don't understand all those people who buy reps and pour so much money into making it look accurate, even though it has an unreliable movement/mod inside (example the rep IWC 3714). So you're wrong, and you're ignorant. I buy the watches for me. I couldn't care less about the brand, but I love the quality, the looks and I love the price. I wouldn't even be here, if the quality of the reps aren't as amazing as they currently are. Let's face it - the reason why these watches are copied, is because the LOOK GOOD. Nobody reps a watch that looks like [censored].

well, i'm undeniably more cynical than ..well, most of the rest of humanity. Therefore, i think that what people say on the internet and what they do in real life are vastly different things. I'd bet a year's wages that nearly everyone on this forum would try to pass of their reps as gens if they thought they could get away with it...as was staed above....there's no reason to own reps with the same branding if you're not trying to pass it off as a gen. Why not buy the lovely asian-movement Invicta Diver for $90 instead of the noobmariner for $120? The extra $$ is a week's mochas for me. It's the same freaking case (well, except for the crown guards, which are of course wrong as EVERYONE can tell. they're .00005 mm too wide.)

[tvt]

That's why I don't understand all those people who buy reps and pour so much money into making it look accurate, even though it has an unreliable movement/mod inside (example the rep IWC 3714). So you're wrong, and you're ignorant. I buy the watches for me. I couldn't care less about the brand, but I love the quality, the looks and I love the price. I wouldn't even be here, if the quality of the reps aren't as amazing as they currently are. Let's face it - the reason why these watches are copied, is because the LOOK GOOD. Nobody reps a watch that looks like [censored].

I have seen MANY, MANY fakes of REALLY ugly watches... I don't think they are being copied because they look good, they are being copied because people will pay money to have something they can't REALLY have.

the idea of having a beater watch (or a bunch of them) is fine. Your cut of point is $500, also fine. The problem comes when you look at what LEGIT watches can be had for $500... a TON of them. Most of them FAR superior in quality to even the best of the fakes we know have and they all have warrenties to boot. In fact I hear a lot of talk about how great the quality of fakes are today (and they are, as compared to the past) but very few are truly well made watches. What they are is cheaply thrown together watches with no QC. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't (I just had a new PAM show up dead today).

I just think that if you want a beater you have a HUGE selection of $500 watches which are easier to get and work better (while still looking great) than any fake.

I can believe that people buy fakes for reasons other than to "fool people" I am one of them, but surely the name stamped on there means something to you... otherwise why not go buy a really nice Oris or something?

[Devedander]

There are lots of people from lots of walks of life and indeed there are those who probably legitimately don't care about fooling people... heck there are probably those who buy them and put them in a box and admire them at home and no one but the owners see them (in which case you really would'nt be fooling anyone)...

But in the last week I have browsed with a little more attention than usually the watches at Walmart, Sears and Macy's... and to my great suprise the $100-500 range of watches offers a lot of truly good looking, solidly built watches, many of which come near a lot of the famous maker brands.

Certainly Panerai is a little more rare (but I bet you could find something pretty similar if you looked at some big dept stores) but Gucci and Rolex, even Omega and Bvlgari have their fair share of look alikes... some even automatics... heck I even saw a fake Trubillon at the cheap watch desk at Macy's the other day! Automatic with a fake visible turbillon wheel... around $200... fet solid in my hand, good weight, turbillon turned once a second but it was still eye catching, movement was smooth, warranty, waterproof, 30 day return, good polish... pretty butt ugly but that's hardly the point as a little more searching I am sure would have turned up a better looking similar result...

So if you want a nice looking, solid beater watch... I honestly believe your dept store has ones as good or better than our reps, just without the brand names and not quite as close in appearance (but still very close).

I am not trying to call anyone out, but personally the way I see it, while reps may have come a long way, dept store cheapo watches have definitely come a long way as well... and offer a startling value... if you don't mind wearing Fossil, Diesel or some other known dept store brand.

BTW oddly enough knowing me most of my reps will be a collection... worn once or twice for the experience then boxed for long periods... because for me it's the getting, not so much the having or showing that floats my boat

[Febus]

(leroy, please note right formt he first that this isn't directed at you specifically

i call [censored] on the whole "I don't care if people think it's real or not."

Bull.

[censored].

OF COURSE you care...we ALL care. we buy these watches because we WANT people who see them and actually know what it is to think it's real.

Other than a few noted tinkers (and i use that term with tremendous respect Ubi :-)) who build franken cause they like the building, not necessarily the wearing, every last one of the people on this forum buy reps because they can't buy the gen for some reason, be it not having the moeny or not having tghe ability to find one locally or whatever, but let's be honest....it's because we want people to think we have a bunch of genuine watches. Justify it away however you want.....but the only intellectually honest answer is that we're trying to decieve people into thinking we have genuine watches.

I LOVE telling people that my Milguass rep was "used in "highly magnetic" environments". To the geeks i work with, they just spin out of control trying to figure out what that means. i enjoy the crap out of it.

Flame on boys.

I see some truth in this but at the same time I'm still yet to see a reasonably high quality watch non-replica with ETA movement for $200.

[Pugwash]

OF COURSE you care...we ALL care. we buy these watches because we WANT people who see them and actually know what it is to think it's real.

Just like all those people with a framed Monet or Picasso print on their walls want their guests to think it's real?

I call "nearly, but not quite" as most of the time, I wear replicas to fool myself; to play a game of "if only this were real, cos it looks good". I know that in any given day, no-one will ever spot my watch for a replica because most people would assume it cost the same as a Timex, never having heard of Panerai or IWC.

Recently, some blokes I was working with had my IWC GST in their hands and were marvelling over it, as I'd said it was exotic, Titanium and Sapphire, and an automatic mechanical watch. They were impressed, more than I thought they would be, but didn't have a clue who IWC were. One of them said "Nice, but I want a Breitling" meaning he'd heard of non-rolex brands. For all I know, they assumed it was merely a very nice $500 watch, which it nearly is, costing in the gen dial and cost of Ziggification. I digress.

Right, This is, of course, a largely acedemic discussion. (well, it is now that i've called [censored] on nearly everyone on the board and no one's really disagreed.)

I like to think I have. It's a Rolex print or a reproduction Panerai to me. I'm fooling myself, not others.

[Devedander]

No disrespect pug, but to continue the analogy, isn't getting a rep watch instead of a close looking dept store brand kind of like buying a forged VanGough instead of buying a nice print at the local museum?

I mean an Invicta Diver seems to me like a print (looks like the real thing, close enough to convey the same general aesthetic appeal but with no qualms about not being the original) but a sub rep seems like getting a (possibly questionable quality, difficult to attain) forgery (alternatives are available to portray the basics, but the details that don't really count towards the major values - does the forgery really offer something more enjoyable than the high quality print? - are the only difference and hence more or less what you are buying).

And in general some people may get very rare reps like panerais etc, but I would think the most common rep is the submariner... which is also the most copied design in dept store brands...

So sure, if you really like panerai or IWC then you can argue you aren't fooling most people since most people don't know anyway... but the majorit of people buy subs... yet quality dept store sub look alikes abound... so you can't really argue the same for that.

Do remember that most of these statements have been qualified with a "most people" or "nearly everyone" type statement so of course thre are exceptions (like people who rob banks for the thrill, not the money) but are statements pertaining to the majority...

Edited November 7, 2006 by Devedander

[omni]

Right, This is, of course, a largely acedemic discussion. (well, it is now that i've called [censored] on nearly everyone on the board and no one's really disagreed.)

There are always exceptions so I'll disagree with you.

[Pugwash]

No disrespect pug, but to continue the analogy, isn't getting a rep watch instead of a close looking dept store brand kind of like buying a forged VanGough instead of buying a nice print at the local museum?

Not at all. It's like buying a print instead of a Bob Ross painting.

So sure, if you really like panerai or IWC then you can argue you aren't fooling most people since most people don't know anyway... but the majorit of people buy subs... yet quality dept store sub look alikes abound... so you can't really argue the same for that.

I wear my Sub from time to time and like it very much. However, I don't wave it in people's faces saying "LOOKIT ME, GOT ME A ROLEX, MAW!" so if I don't show it to people and at that point they can't tell the difference between it and an Invictim, why do I bother? Oh yeah, because I'm fooling myself, not them.

ps. I'm talking for myself, not others. I believe several people do intend to fool people, and that's their prerogative. I called Bovine Scatology on Ron's post for me, not for everyone.

[Devedander]

Interesting... I guess there is just a lot of gray area involved here...

I mean to be honest I am not getting reps with the hope that people will look at me and think "wow, he has a rolex! he must be an awesome person and super pimpin and I wish I was him" but at the same time if I can't fully swing to the "reps offer the best quality and value" since I have seen plenty of dept store watches that are very attractive and I am sure would be as reliable as reps, if not more, without the QC, servicing and other questionable issues reps come with...

[Chronus]

Interesting... I guess there is just a lot of gray area involved here...

I mean to be honest I am not getting reps with the hope that people will look at me and think "wow, he has a rolex! he must be an awesome person and super pimpin and I wish I was him" but at the same time if I can't fully swing to the "reps offer the best quality and value" since I have seen plenty of dept store watches that are very attractive and I am sure would be as reliable as reps, if not more, without the QC, servicing and other questionable issues reps come with...

Why ARE you getting reps instead of these more reliable department store watches?

[Chronus]

Some may have recently noticed that I have shown an interest in the ceramic Chanel J12 model. One thing that would not bother me is to have that watch without the Chanel on the dial...

Any versions of this out without that on the dial ? With as good quality ceramics?

The (good) rep is supposed to use the same quality ceramics.

I guess that goes to show it is not always the brand. I admit when I first got a R*l*x rep (first ever rep) I was in a bit of the "I've got a R*l*x, I want to show off" mode but that wore off when I found other watches I like even more - IWC, Panerai, Omega, Breitling, etc etc

[tag]

Somehow this remark made him look stupid and not me, and let me wondering how someone could spent

so much on a watch and know so little about it.

My boss wears a nice Master Hometime. I made a compliment and expected to start a watch enthousiasts' conversation. Instead, he replied: "Having had only digital display watches so far, I had a hard time reading the time at teh beginning. But this one is nice, and it displays a second time zone, see...".

So he jumped from a $20 casio to a $6000 JL without catching the WIS virus...

I wish I could exchange his JL with a quartz GMT!...

[Devedander]

Why ARE you getting reps instead of these more reliable department store watches?

Because somehow it's more interesting to explain to people that it's a rep than to explain that it's a dept store brand

Edited November 7, 2006 by Devedander

[tvt]

The fact is that like most things in life why people buy fakes is NOT cut and dry, it is just that simple.

There are people who buy them just flat out to fool people, to make them think they have something they do not. But there are MANY other reasons that people 9especially on forums such as this) buy them.

I personally do not buy Rolex fakes and the fakes I do buy (mostly Panerai right now but a variety of other lesser known "brands" as well) end up resting in a display case where they largely remian unworn. I tend to wear my gens because they are simply better watches and I feel better wearing them. So the fakes are not "folling" anyone... yet I still really enjoy them.

I could possibly see collecting those dept. store brands. In fact years ago before I was in a position to buy higher end gens I did in fact collect the dept. store models. In college I had a dozen or two watches... all inexpensive (swatch, Fossil. etc.) but a collection nonetheless. I was collecting those not to impress people but simple because I liked them. I was a "watch guy". I enjoyed the look of them and the variety they offered me.

As I grew older and could reasonably afford "better" watches I started buying gens and built a collection of those. Then I came across the fakes and there was something very intriguing and interesting about them. The very idea that people would go to such extremes to mimic genuine brands, the hunt for them, the minute critique of every little detail. I found this all to be very fun and so I got the fake watch bug as well... but NONE of it ever had ANYTHING to do with fooling someone, not myself or others.

As an aside, a guy who works for me started to notice my watches. He knew NOTHING about watches, he just liked the way the Panerais looks. So when I was in China I purchased him a good quality PAM (we would pay $300 - $400 here but in China it was well under $100) and gave it to him. He gets complimented on that thing EVERYWHERE. I have been with him on three different ocassions when women tell him how cool his watch it. They have no clue what a Panerai is, they just like his watch. He is wearing it not to fool anyone but simply because he thought it was a cool looking watch.

[tvt]

So....are you self-justified rep collectors telling me that you'd take an chinese auto of dubious quality over one of the new TX watches?

I agree. There can be many reasons to buy fakes but the "quality" of them is just simply NOT one of them... period. Even if your fake has a quality movement the way they have been assembled is an absolute joke as compared to ANY genuine, even super cheap ones. There is no QC, no repurcusions for making them poorly, no warrenty, nothing. I have had more issues with my fake watches by a factor of 100 over any gen of any quality I have ever owned.

It is really just a silly argument to make. If we are interested in quality accurate time keeping we would all buy Casio digital watches. If we were interested in inexpensive nice looking, well made automatics we would all buy dept. store brands. These all have quality easily on par and in most all cases far superior to even the best of fakes. We in fact buy fakes because of the fact that they mimic genuines. Now this is where things may differ from person to person. Some may want that fake to fool people, others may want to for a myriad of other reasons... but the fact that it is a fake of a genuine watch DOES come into play.

[lemonvr6]

TVT, my friend......i must compliment you on your well-reasoned responses to this question/statement. Even though you're completely and totally wrong about most of it, you can at least articulate your point-of-view without resorting to name calling and the blatant self-justification that plagues a place like this. (and the internet at-large)

Good on you for being so correctly incorrect. :-)

I'm curious, then as to why you feel there is such a strong demand for reps. All of the points TVT made are valid and likely much closer to the truth than you are comfortable with.