TeeJay Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 The question is, can he genuinely fulfill new orders? His policy of "new sales over repair" is not something I concur with, but I shall not comment further on this. I know of at least one dealer here who is taking orders actively and hedging a lot on delivery. More than likely yes. From a dealer's point of view, getting a watch repaired are costs (which may or may not lead to repeat custom) new orders are direct 'cash in hand',so it's no surprize that they are taking care of cashflow first. As mentioned above, these guys are not people's personal friends (regardless of how they may behave or lead people to believe) but are guys with the ethics of a snakeoil seller. If they don't get caught out, they don't consider it lying, just 'business' I had a similar experience a few years back with a tattoo artist who I had allowed to do work on me while he learned. As time went on, his prices increased from "just the cost of ink and needles" to full studio rate. On the one hand, I didn't mind this as the quality of his work was excellent, but on the other hand, studio rates requires studio overheads, not someone working from home... When I went to begin the outlining of the dragon's head on my back, I was told that he hadn't been able to prepare the stencils by hand, and would need to purchase a thermofax machine before we could do the dragon's head. The only problem, was unless he did more tattoo work on me anyway (for the money) he wouldn't be able to get the thermofax to do the dragon's head So I got some other work done which would have needed doing eventually anyway, but the point is, I was simply being used 'as cash', not respected as a friend or valued as a customer. In a later session, we got 90% of the dragon's head outlined, before he had to retire from tattooing due to back problems... Okay, so I have an unfinished outline on my back, but when cash allows, I'll be able to go to an artist 10 minute walk from home and get it finished off, he, on the other hand, won't be tattooing anyone else in any meaningful way 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted August 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 As mentioned above, these guys are not people's personal friends (regardless of how they may behave or lead people to believe) but are guys with the ethics of a snakeoil seller. Lol couldnt help but laugh at this statement.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Lol couldnt help but laugh at this statement.. Just being honest, which some folks round here don't appreciate when it comes to the Cartel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archierocks Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 im not looking for a new mate or buddy im looking for a decent amount of loyalty after spending close to $2000 in under six months with him I have an order he knows about valued at about $500 that i told him to get ready but not to ship until the repair was ready now im in sales and have been for 15 years if i had a customer who had spend what i have spent and willing to spend more id push the boat out a little . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 im not looking for a new mate or buddy im looking for a decent amount of loyalty after spending close to $2000 in under six months with him I have an order he knows about valued at about $500 that i told him to get ready but not to ship until the repair was ready now im in sales and have been for 15 years if i had a customer who had spend what i have spent and willing to spend more id push the boat out a little . $2000 won't mean shit to him in terms of loyalty return, all it means is $2000 extra in the bank. Just the same as the previous $2000, and the next $2000. Your business ethics and Chinese business ethics could not be further apart, and people really need to wake up to the fact that shopping from the Cartel, is being a fish in a barrel. All is well for a while, but it's when these litte white lies crop up, that they show their true colors... I hope you get a satisfactory resolution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisrwg Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Do any of the dealers have access to the likes of AP Roo secs@12's? which, I gather are specifically noob only? I received an AP ROO secs@12 from Trusty after the raids started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archierocks Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 $2000 won't mean [censored] to him in terms of loyalty return, all it means is $2000 extra in the bank. Just the same as the previous $2000, and the next $2000. Your business ethics and Chinese business ethics could not be further apart, and people really need to wake up to the fact that shopping from the Cartel, is being a fish in a barrel. All is well for a while, but it's when these litte white lies crop up, that they show their true colors... I hope you get a satisfactory resolution i will i will just buy from other dealers or from the forums if josh doesn't return the watch repaired there is lots of things that can be done to effect his business thorugh ccard compaies and paypal etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 i will i will just buy from other dealers or from the forums if josh doesn't return the watch repaired there is lots of things that can be done to effect his business thorugh ccard compaies and paypal etc Despite my anti-Cartel stance, I will willingly concede that Josh is certainly regarded as one of, if not the best, for when it comes to dealing with afterservice issues, and I fully expect that he will (eventually) sort things out for you My issue with this situation, is it highlights that these dealers do not deserve the loyalty they are given, cannot be trusted to be honest (about anything business related) and simply view this community's members simply as a cash source... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted August 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Just being honest, which some folks round here don't appreciate when it comes to the Cartel Oh, I am starting to.. screw the cartel, if they are screwing us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted August 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 I received an AP ROO secs@12 from Trusty after the raids started. Nice! There is hope for us after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Oh, I am starting to.. screw the cartel, if they are screwing us! They have been for a long time, hence why I've never purchassed from any dealer (past or present) in all my time here as a member [Edit to clarify] Any Cartel Dealer. I missed that out before being quoted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolexman Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 They have been for a long time, hence why I've never purchassed from any dealer (past or present) in all my time here as a member Wise choice. I explicitly asked Andrew if there were delivery problems and he said NO. Please know I maybe ordered 100ths of watches from Andrew and he always treated me right but this is just bullsh!t. He is lying just to get our money..... 2 weeks have passed and 0 communication or QC pics. As a vet I'm patient and I don't mind waiting. I know how this game works. Just don't lie!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Wise choice. I explicitly asked Andrew if there were delivery problems and he said NO. Please know I maybe ordered 100ths of watches from Andrew and he always treated me right but this is just bullsh!t. He is lying just to get our money..... 2 weeks have passed and 0 communication or QC pics. As a vet I'm patient and I don't mind waiting. I know how this game works. Just don't lie!! That has been precisely my point all these years, sadly, in the Chinese businessman's scheme of things, lying to gwai loh is not lying. Nor is it lying if one is not caught in the lie. They genuinely do not think they are doing anything wrong. Regardless of QC pics, given Andrew's reputation, I would expect the watch to have arrived within two wees If I were you, I would send a request asking for either a valid tracking number, and if one is not forthcoming, I would cancel the order and demand a full refund (adding the phrase "Dew neh loh moh!!!" . If he can't fill your order, he should just say so and let you take your money elsewhere. If you do ask for a refund, I bet you get offered another item instead of said refund Fingers crossed for you, amigo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted August 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 That has been precisely my point all these years, sadly, in the Chinese businessman's scheme of things, lying to gwai loh is not lying. Nor is it lying if one is not caught in the lie. They genuinely do not think they are doing anything wrong. Regardless of QC pics, given Andrew's reputation, I would expect the watch to have arrived within two wees If I were you, I would send a request asking for either a valid tracking number, and if one is not forthcoming, I would cancel the order and demand a full refund (adding the phrase "Dew neh loh moh!!!" . If he can't fill your order, he should just say so and let you take your money elsewhere. If you do ask for a refund, I bet you get offered another item instead of said refund Fingers crossed for you, amigo My gosh TeeJay..lol.. "Dew leh loh moh" literally means to "f**k your mother"..haha over a watch? Look, I'm subscribing to your posts for pure entertainment value. hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 My gosh TeeJay..lol.. "Dew leh loh moh" literally means to "f**k your mother"..haha over a watch? Look, I'm subscribing to your posts for pure entertainment value. hahaha It's a very commonly used phrase in Cantonese, in context, it's more akin to how gangsta rappers use "motherfucker" every other word, rather than the intent behind saying "go fuck your mother" to someone Either way, it would ensure the point about the refund is understood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fracture Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 You guys sure are quick to turn your backs to someone. If a new guy asks who he should be buying from it's all "Oh, Josh or Andrew will sort you out, they're dependable guys". Some romours about a raid pop up and all of a sudden they're liars. I bought 2 watches in the last weeks from both and they have arrived in 2 weeks as they usually do, after first contacting them about availability. Alright, some might have to wait a bit longer due to current circumstances but is anyone here really convinced they're being screwed over and stolen from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted August 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 It's a very commonly used phrase in Cantonese, in context, it's more akin to how gangsta rappers use "[censored]" every other word, rather than the intent behind saying "go [censored] your mother" to someone Either way, it would ensure the point about the refund is understood lol yes I know.. I speak Mandarin and cantonese very well and your post came across as hilarious when used in this context! Anyhow, I do get the points you are trying to bring across, in your "take no prisoners" way. Reading your colorful comments about the cartel dealers certainly put things across in a more interesting perspective. Now, suppose you have been boycotting the "TDs" here.. where do you buy your watches from then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasebah Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 I totally agree with TeeJay. This is simply a cultural thing. Everything that helps business is considered smart and per definition cannot be unethical even if they are your "friend". I was sourcing various goods in Taiwan, Hongkong and China for many years. We had a running gag for delivery times. Whenever something was not fully developed or ready for delivery the standard answer was "available in one month" completely regardless of the real development time. You could run from booth to booth and from show to show you always got the same answer. It is still a running gag between me and a colleague whenever we are judging development time for a project or a product release...hmmmm...one muns. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted August 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 You guys sure are quick to turn your backs to someone. If a new guy asks who he should be buying from it's all "Oh, Josh or Andrew will sort you out, they're dependable guys". Some romours about a raid pop up and all of a sudden they're liars. I bought 2 watches in the last weeks from both and they have arrived in 2 weeks as they usually do, after first contacting them about availability. Alright, some might have to wait a bit longer due to current circumstances but is anyone here really convinced they're being screwed over and stolen from? All I'm saying is that different dealers tell different things when asked the same question. So it is reasonable to deduce that someone is either lying, withholding the truth knowingly or telling half-truths about the situation. Unless we have first hand information, we can only make judgement based on how we are treated as a customer, even in this seemingly tumultous time. The more cloudy a situation appears to be, the more assumptions will be made about what lies in the cloud. I think its human nature to be more forgiving if we are given honest insights into what lies in the smoke and mist. I can understand that given the nature of the industry and our hobby, complete transparency and honesty is somewhat impossible. That is why, when a supposed "raid" occurs, there will be many sides to the tale. Perhaps, just saying, that the TDs should not be turning their backs on us instead. Afterall, what more do we want than an honest explanation on what is really happening, and ultimately, for them to deliver the watches that we set our eyes on? Makes a little sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 lol yes I know.. I speak Mandarin and cantonese very well and your post came across as hilarious when used in this context! Anyhow, I do get the points you are trying to bring across, in your "take no prisoners" way. Reading your colorful comments about the cartel dealers certainly put things across in a more interesting perspective. Now, suppose you have been boycotting the "TDs" here.. where do you buy your watches from then? Glad to hear it read well When I joined, there was a big hoo har about 'little white lies' and how the Cartel (at the time, Andrew, Angus, Josh and King) were trying to muscle out smaller dealers via price-fixing tactics. I didn't like what I saw, so vowed to never spend a penny with any of them. A while back, RWI revoked Andrew and Josh's status as 'trusted dealers', yet for some reason, people still keep buying from them I do get it, for the most part, they do produce the goods and get the job done, but at the end of the day, I don't want to do business with someone who felt the need to lie about the availability of a bezel insert. If they will lie about that, what else will they lie about?? When I used a forum trusted dealer (Silix) in each instance, the goods received were either incorrect, unsatisfactory, or flat out never arrived (I still have a Jubilee Bracelet undelivered somewhere out there...) I've bought virtually all my reps from a site called CQout. It uses an inhouse escrow system so the seller doesn't get paid until the buyer has not only received, but is satisfied with the goods and releases payment. Heck, if someone really wanted to shaft a seller, all they'd need do is keep the watch but never release the payment. The feedback system is also ruthless. Three negative feedbacks, for any reason, and the seller is automatically booted from the site. Just by comments in this thread alone, under that system, Josh would either be gone, or on his last warning... TD WatchEden used to trade on CQout, and fell foul of this rule just thanks to 'n00b negatives' that the watch wasn't 1:1 to the gen, or such similar pathetic comments. I will admit, these are more the budget end of the spectrum, but I've never been trying to impress anyone or pass anything off as genuine, I just have a thing for watches, and if it should say Rolex/Omega/Panerai on the dial, for the sake of aesthetics, I prefer that it still says so rather than being a sterile homage dial 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 You guys sure are quick to turn your backs to someone. If a new guy asks who he should be buying from it's all "Oh, Josh or Andrew will sort you out, they're dependable guys". Some romours about a raid pop up and all of a sudden they're liars. I bought 2 watches in the last weeks from both and they have arrived in 2 weeks as they usually do, after first contacting them about availability. Alright, some might have to wait a bit longer due to current circumstances but is anyone here really convinced they're being screwed over and stolen from? There have been issues with the Cartel for years, which people for some reason, allowed to look the other way on. No one here has been quick to turn their backs on anyone. Now, to highlight the point you made. You bought watches from both, within two weeks, and have both watches. First off, that's excellent that you have your product, but the actual problem, is that you receiving them, proves the point that they are lying about availability issues due to factory raids. It shows that they are simply lying to their buyers, and as discussed a page back, this will inevitably lead to them raising prices, which buyers will likely accept under the pretense of 'hard to comeby stock', when in truth, there is no supply issue whatsoever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted August 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Glad to hear it read well When I joined, there was a big hoo har about 'little white lies' and how the Cartel (at the time, Andrew, Angus, Josh and King) were trying to muscle out smaller dealers via price-fixing tactics. I didn't like what I saw, so vowed to never spend a penny with any of them. A while back, RWI revoked Andrew and Josh's status as 'trusted dealers', yet for some reason, people still keep buying from them I do get it, for the most part, they do produce the goods and get the job done, but at the end of the day, I don't want to do business with someone who felt the need to lie about the availability of a bezel insert. If they will lie about that, what else will they lie about?? When I used a forum trusted dealer (Silix) in each instance, the goods received were either incorrect, unsatisfactory, or flat out never arrived (I still have a Jubilee Bracelet undelivered somewhere out there...) I've bought virtually all my reps from a site called CQout. It uses an inhouse escrow system so the seller doesn't get paid until the buyer has not only received, but is satisfied with the goods and releases payment. Heck, if someone really wanted to shaft a seller, all they'd need do is keep the watch but never release the payment. The feedback system is also ruthless. Three negative feedbacks, for any reason, and the seller is automatically booted from the site. Just by comments in this thread alone, under that system, Josh would either be gone, or on his last warning... TD WatchEden used to trade on CQout, and fell foul of this rule just thans to n00b negatives that the watch wasn't 1:1 to the gen, or such similar pathetic comments. I will admit, these are more the budget end of the spectrum, but I've never been trying to impress anyone or pass anything off as genuine, I just have a thing for watches, and if it should say Rolex/Omega/Panerai on the dial, for the sake of aesthetics, I prefer that it still says so rather than being a sterile homage dial As long as the watch is something you are comfortable wearing, then I don't see why its the business of another person to poke his/her nose into the matter. I would check out CQout, thanks for sharing TeeJay. Your sardonic sense of humor certainly encompasses some element of truth, but lets give some benefit of doubt to the dealers here. Like I said, IF they are found to be screwing us in any way, I would not hesitate to walk the same boycott route you did. Having said that, I believe that there are still responsible dealers around. Perhaps we should give them a little more time to explain things to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 As long as the watch is something you are comfortable wearing, then I don't see why its the business of another person to poke his/her nose into the matter. I would check out CQout, thanks for sharing TeeJay. Your sardonic sense of humor certainly encompasses some element of truth, but lets give some benefit of doubt to the dealers here. Like I said, IF they are found to be screwing us in any way, I would not hesitate to walk the same boycott route you did. Having said that, I believe that there are still responsible dealers around. Perhaps we should give them a little more time to explain things to us. Exactly, it may not necessarily be to everyone's taste, but they're certainly good enough for me, and if I were feeling dishonest, could still probably pass one off on 'a civilian' as the real thing, as they're not 'that bad'. Okay, the GMT II I last received (Ironically 4 weeks faster than most receipts from said seller ) the triangular dial marker is offset by about half a degree. It would only be the work of a few minutes to decase the movement and tweak it, but as I only bought the watch to serve as a movement donor, I'm not overly fussed about half a degree when I'm the only one looking at it And you're absolutely right, I wouldn't hesitate to order from WatchEden or Narikaa (or from Ken for non-watch items) it's just that my finances at the moment mean I have to buy from the bottom of the barrel, and even then, I'm still getting a Rolex Oyster Perpetual, not a Polex Oxter Prepetval My GMT II? Hey, it's just a factory reject I figure keeping it humorous will keep it clear that I'm just trying to open people's eyes to the situation and keep things lighthearted, rather than just slagging off the Cartel for the sake of it, because as mentioned, for the most part, they do come up with the goods for folks,I think it's just very clear that this whole 'raid' scenario is being milked for all it's worth, and folks're definitely getting lied too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 As long as the watch is something you are comfortable wearing, then I don't see why its the business of another person to poke his/her nose into the matter. I would check out CQout, thanks for sharing TeeJay. Your sardonic sense of humor certainly encompasses some element of truth, but lets give some benefit of doubt to the dealers here. Like I said, IF they are found to be screwing us in any way, I would not hesitate to walk the same boycott route you did. Having said that, I believe that there are still responsible dealers around. Perhaps we should give them a little more time to explain things to us. After reading all the comments, I'm a bit surprised at all the animosity. These dealers have been around for years selling 1000's of illegal watches and delivering them as advertised with only a relatively few complaints. What else can we buy over the internet from CHINA and have this kind of reliability. Now that there is a crackdown and dealers are having to deal with it, suddenly there is a wave of criticism about how they do business. TJ, I know for years you've railed against the CARTEL, but truth be told they DELIVER. They fact that we don't have waves of complaints about delivery of crap means the vast majority of buyers on this forum and others are very happy with their products, me included. I personally have bought 100's of watches without an issue. Could I have gotten them cheaper? maybe, but Josh, Andrew and the others give me a sense of security that's worth it. Now, they are under pressure from their Government and are in a moment of "Crisis", yet they are still delivering, maybe slower. After years of good service, give 'em a break!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 After reading all the comments, I'm a bit surprised at all the animosity. These dealers have been around for years selling 1000's of illegal watches and delivering them as advertised with only a relatively few complaints. What else can we buy over the internet from CHINA and have this kind of reliability. Now that there is a crackdown and dealers are having to deal with it, suddenly there is a wave of criticism about how they do business. TJ, I know for years you've railed against the CARTEL, but truth be told they DELIVER. They fact that we don't have waves of complaints about delivery of crap means the vast majority of buyers on this forum and others are very happy with their products, me included. I personally have bought 100's of watches without an issue. Could I have gotten them cheaper? maybe, but Josh, Andrew and the others give me a sense of security that's worth it. Now, they are under pressure from their Government and are in a moment of "Crisis", yet they are still delivering, maybe slower. After years of good service, give 'em a break!. The legitimacy of this 'crisis' is the whole point. People have been told that there are delays due to raids, and that would be totally acceptable and understandable. However. For the most part, people are not experiencing any delays at all, from a variety of dealers, so the real issue here is if these raids are truly having an impact, or if this is again, just another 'little white lie'. And yes, I totally agree, for the most part, Andrew and Josh do deliver, I would never deny that, but they have also been proven to lie on various matters on numerous occasions, and that is the crux of this matter. I'm not trying to be confrontational, but consider just how truly accountable to the forum admin and mods are these guys? What can the mods actually do, should they not come through with the goods? Sure, they would lose reputation, but other than that, no real sanctions or enforceable refunds. The site I mentioned, uses an inhouse escrow system and very strict feedback system, which is more stringent than used by eBay. If sellers there don't live up to expectation, they face real sanctions, which even one of our own trusted dealers fell foul of through no fault of their own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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