Is there a difference...

[By-Tor]

...when you build a franken from 100% gen parts, instead of just 90% of gen parts?

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=236497

Apparently peopla at the Rolex Forums think so.

[devilseam]

Yeah, I had read that post a while ago and thought that if that was anyone else they would be shot down in flames. Dont think they really have a clue over on rolex forums.

[TT88]

Someone build a 100% gen franken sub over at purist and it was quite well accepted, think trf guys are abit 'different ' lol

Sent from my Bezel using 116610

[ceocorona]

I'll say it is a nice build. I guess that 10% is what separates us from the "upper echelon", lol.

[Geof3]

This "anti-mod" mindset seems to be particularly prevalent in the Rolex world. Imagine if the Seiko guys were like this. Someone even had the balls to call it a fake. Another even said "Rolex wouldn't be ver happy about this", well who gives a rat-f$&k what Rolex thinks. The man made a cool watch. Good on him!

Jocke has been around the rolex game for YEARS, anybody that has played at all in the gen world, know of him. He is a wealth of knowledge. What I want to know is where did he get the parts? Must know someone. Very nice tool box too.

[automatico]

Here is how I see it...

I see any watch made out of 100% genuine and correct parts as a genuine watch. No tutone genuine parts conversions with the wrong reference numbers, no tutone Daytonas made into an all steel watch etc...and no botch jobs on assembly.

Botch jobs = lower value no matter what.

 

I see a 90% genuine/10% aftmkt watch as a modified genuine watch with a slightly lower value if the 10% shows...bezel, insert, crown, crystal, clasp etc...but the aftmkt parts must be high quality and correct for the watch. If it is 10% aftmkt parts inside the watch...train wheels, mainspring etc I doubt anyone would know or care about it (especially on vintage watches) except maybe for a few rolex forum/TZ/VRF types. If no one tells the aftmkt internal parts story...it will still go for a 100% genuine watch. Not totally honest of course but my guess is second hand sellers/trade shows etc are full of them.

 

If you send your beat up 1680 to rsc and they stick the movement in a new case with new dial/hands etc it is still 100% genuine but not original so for this reason I can see no difference in a made up 100% genuine parts watch and any rsc watch with new genuine parts installed. The catch is the rsc recase watch will not be worth as much as a real nice original because of the recase serial number. I doubt it will be worth as much as a made up 100% genuine watch of the same type, even with full disclosure.

 

If you stick all the parts from the same beat up 100% genuine 1680 in a Yuki case it is 100% Frankenstein, no way around it and the value plummets...assuming the seller is honest about it (big assumption).

 

Not all Frankensteins are created equal...

I have a genuine vintage tritium 1680 dial/movement in a DW case...it is about 50/50 genuine/aftmkt and 100% Frankenstein but not worth as much as the same stuff in a Yuki, Phong etc case. Higher grade aftmkt parts will make some Frankensteins with the same percentage of genuine vs aftmkt parts worth more than others. Workmanship also has a lot to do with selling prices of Frankensteins.

Botched aging attempts also devalue many Frankenstein watches.

[JoeyB]

That argument has been debated about freddy333's Rolex 6542 white dial. The only part not genuine Rolex is the insert, but it is a genuine JoeyB insert. 

[sgtguk]

Seen Jocke build a similar piece a while back now, he has some skill set I must say      Good on him !  I'd have to say that extra 10% does make a difference, but only in value imo

[panerai153]

I read through the whole 10 pages of that post, and I was impressed by the 1st post outlining  the steps to convert the watch, nice photos and certainly a guy with superior skills. Unfortunately for the next 9.9 pages, there were not over three worthwhile posts commenting on the watch, the perils of a build like this, and the ramifications of these in the real world. It certainly shows to me the diminished watch intelligence of a large number of Rolex Forum members.

 

I agree with automatico, who wrote a great post above as to what is what. If I change the dial in my genuine 1680 for a better quality dial from the same time period, not and upgrade to a Red dial, but another white dial from the same serial range, I still have  a 100% genuine watch with parts from the same era. What scares me are the folks who are "upgrading" by putting a red sub dial in a watch that originally had a white dial (although this happened a lot at the RSC's when 1680's were sent in for service, back in the 70's and 80's) But I f  someone today does it, that's not correct. Same as laser welding a case to restore it to NOS condition and selling it as such.  

 

Unfortunately, I believe that in the future, we are going to see a lot more vintage Rolex watches with aftermarket parts, simply because Rolex will not service them, they will not provide replacement parts, and the used parts that are available are getting scarcer and scarcer and more expensive. Ultimately, we will be faced with the dilemma of either using aftermarket  parts or throwing the old Sub in a sock drawer and forgetting about it.

[By-Tor]

Unfortunately for the next 9.9 pages, there were not over three worthwhile posts commenting on the watch, the perils of a build like this, and the ramifications of these in the real world. It certainly shows to me the diminished watch intelligence of a large number of Rolex Forum members.

Good point.

I remember their "Fake Busters" squat team back in the day. There were two posers who were reporting perfectly legit watches as fakes on several Ebay auctions. When I politely told them that they were wrong and those watches were 100% legit I was suddenly the bad guy.

Never went back. There are some very knowledgeable people but most of them know nothing about Rolex.

[freddy333]

We had a similar thread (about the (recent) lack of consternation from VRF members when an esteemed long-term member posted about his home-brew gen Sub) on RWG last year. There has definitely been a seismic shift on the gen Rolex forums recently. A few years ago, the merest mention of replacing a 5513 insert or dial with a more fashionable 1 would have gotten you banned on the spot. Today, it is almost de rigueur to modify or build your Rolex. Very strange.

[Ronin]

We had a similar thread (about the (recent) lack of consternation from VRF members when an esteemed long-term member posted about his home-brew gen Sub) on RWG last year. There has definitely been a seismic shift on the gen Rolex forums recently. A few years ago, the merest mention of replacing a 5513 insert or dial with a more fashionable 1 would have gotten you banned on the spot. Today, it is almost de rigueur to modify or build your Rolex. Very strange.

 

Great observation.  It is only logical as time passes and reality sets in.  Time to soften the edges so to speak.

 

I was recently at a Concourse d'Elegance car show where it was TOTALLY acceptable to have Porsche 356/550 based Replicar's displayed as an offshoot of the vintage Porsche section.  A few years ago, the 356 community was pretty split and there was a lot of ANTI-Replicar people.  This year however the tone seemed different, and the Replicar's were of great interest.  The "new logic" I was overhearing was:  I can drive (and enjoy) the ~$30,000 replicar daily, and not worry about getting rear-ended in a GEN 1950's era Porsche.  

 

Plain and simple.  If something is NO LONGER produced, and parts availability scarce, it is time to embrace and celebrate enthusiasts and the aftermarket who are keeping something once great-- Alive! 

[freddy333]

The difference is that Replicars are identified & traded as replicas, while franken Rolex watches are often sold as 'genuine' Rolex watches. Certainly, a Rolex assembled from 100% genuine Rolex components is a genuine Rolex watch. But, because the serial numbers do not match, I do not think a Rolex assembled out of genuine Rolex parts by an owner is the same as a genuine Rolex watch assembled by the Rolex factory (with matching serial numbers). I think a better analogy would be to compare 4 quarters & a 1 dollar bill. They are equal, but not the same.

[Ronin]

Exactly.  I was commenting on attitude.  I think "disclosure" is key in the re-sale market.  Example, you SHOULD be able to Sell Franken's with Gen Rolex SN, and mis-matched parts or even an aftermarket bezel on eBay as long it is disclosed as such with out getting flagged down.  As far as unscrupulous sellers, as always buyer beware, and hope those DO get flagged.

[automatico]

"But, because the serial numbers do not match, I do not think a Rolex assembled out of genuine Rolex parts by an owner is the same as a genuine Rolex watch assembled by the Rolex factory (with matching serial numbers)."

 

"I think "disclosure" is key in the re-sale market."

 

Good points.

 

 

'Matching numbers' can only be proven to be matching numbers if the watch comes with the genuine original papers or sale receipt. Not many vintage watches still have them and rwc will not give out info on what movement number goes with what case number.

 

A vintage watch recased by rsc with an 'official' rsc paper stating the new case number and movement number will rank higher than the same parts in a Yuki etc case but maybe not enough to justify paying rsc case prices...at this point in time.

Otoh, the same parts in a Yuki etc case with case numbers matching a genuine original rolex registration paper might be worth more than a rsc recase watch...who knows? 

 

Non chronometer watches like a 5513, AK etc can not have matching numbers because (with a few exceptions) non chronometer movements have no numbers. The watch might come with the original registration paper with the case serial number but the movement being 'original' to the watch will always be a crapshoot.

In reality it can be more or less the same for any vintage watch with original papers and matching numbers...the only original parts might be the (extensively laser welded...Ha!) mid case and movement main plate.

 

If I was a 'serious vintage rolex collector;' I would go on condition and not worry much about numbers because there are too many blank papers, hole punchers, and forgers around.

'vintage' = acrylic no dates and slow sets

[By-Tor]

How about Ferrari Daytona replicas? You know the "Miami Vice" model (which actually WAS a replica). Those originals are so rare and expensive that you have to be a NHL/NBA player or Hollywood movie star to be able to buy one.

If you enjoy the design and are passionate about something... why not? Equivalent in the watch world is probably the Paul Newman Daytona. Not affordable to general public.

They even have a community for the replicas. I wonder what Ferrari owners think about them...

http://www.daytonareplicaclub.co.uk/2401/frames.php