DiverDoug Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Hey all, Ok, before I ask my first (of many) newbie question, I'll ask for forgiveness in advance, but I also have a few disclaimers to state so I don't get flammed : 1) I have searched and researched many of the threads here for a few days now, but I still can't really get a straight answer (though some come close), hence why I'm putting my balls on the chopping block to ask here. 2) I don't know whether this is in the correct area for the question, so mods, feel free to place it in the correct area. Ok? I'll crack on now :-) Anyway, I'm actively researching on what to buy from whom as my first rep and I have a question re:movements. I came across a few reps from Trusty and I want to guage advice/opinions from the more experienced members here. One rep was a PO with the following stats : Asian 4813 Auto movement, 28800 bph, 21J 42 mm dia. (don't really like the colour though) The other was a SD - Nickel plated Asian 2813 Auto movement, 25J high beat 28800 bph 40mm Now, I know that the 2813 movement is the low end of movements, but what makes them so bad? I have seen the full-spectrum of answers so I don't know what to believe. I know that the higher the beats, the smoother the sweep of the minute hand will look, but does the higher beat mean a higher quality or greater accuracy? With the PO, is the 4813 movement better? With the second, is the nickel plating and/or the 25J (as opposed to a 21J) an advantage, or just marketing? So many questions!!! The reason I'm asking this is that the above two watches were not very expensive (ie sub $200), and I just want to test the water so to speak. I'm more curious to know if the 2813 movement will at least keep somewhat accurate time, or is it more of a crapshoot? I've seen older threads where people say their 2813 movement has lasted them for years, while others say their movement is dead by the end of the week. From what I've read, obviously a swiss ETA movement would be the goal, but funds are a little tight right now, so I just want to feel a little confident that I'm going to get a somewhat decent watch that will keep time, or are some 2813 movements better from certain TDs? (PM me if you don't want to answer in public) thanks everyone, and I look forward to hearing to your replies! (even if it is just a link to a thread I could read) :-) Best regards, Diver Doug PS I'll probably be purchasing my first rep(s) soon, so I'll need someone to hold my hand in support ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Dear Diver Doug Welcome to RWG and welcome to the balls chopping board! ..just kidding I do not have enough expertise to answer your queries, but I am sure someone would. I just want to comment that your attitude is very welcome here, and I am sure you would get the corresponding response you are seeking. I just wish more newbies are like you, it would make the forum a much more pleasant place to be in... Kudos to you and keep it up. LK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiverDoug Posted October 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Thanks! I think I'll put the disclaimers in my sig block. It's because I had a really bad experience with another forum (more from a couple idiot members), so hopefully this place will be better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitmic Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Welcome aboard! You have done your homework which is appreciated. To be honest I have had more luck with the asian 2813 than the Swiss movements (which are often dirty). I can't speak for the 48** though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiverDoug Posted October 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Do you think that the 2813 movement has improved in quality over the years or is it still luck of the draw (or buying from the right TD). I guess I'll just keep reading, but the more opinions the better! Thanks, fitmic! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpz5142 Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Doug - welcome to RWG! I think a lot of the sentiment around the lower priced movements like the two you mentioned are that they offer a cheaper way to increase the number of watches in you collection. They are typically good movements but most watch repair guys won't service them. Mainly because you can buy a replacement movement for about $20-30 and be done with it. Sometimes the watch you want is available with the same case/dial/bracelet as the higher priced versions with the Swiss movement or clone. In these situations it's a matter of preference, buy cheapie and replace movement if it breaks or swiss or clone version and get movement serviced. The higher priced movements are designed to be taken apart and serviced, some will argue but there is not that much of a difference between the Swiss eta and the Asian clone eta, they're both dry/dirty and in need of a service when you get them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiverDoug Posted October 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Thanks jp! I'm starting to get the the impression that purchasing a rep is a bit like purchasing a car: options for underneath! I would rather buy a Ferrari with a 4 cylinder engine as long as it looked good (of course, the engine would sound a tad different to anyone not deaf and they could tell the difference, but you get what I mean). If movements can be replaced with a Swiss ETA, then it's something to consider for the future. I'm sure to the average person, even a half assed rep would look like a gen (of course, not to the members here though! :-) ) Thanks for the advice! Best regards, Diver Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitmic Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 To my knowledge the only movement that can be replaced with a Swiss ETA is the Asian clone ETA. All others have differnt sized hands and so on... I could be wrong though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpz5142 Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 To my knowledge the only movement that can be replaced with a Swiss ETA is the Asian clone ETA. All others have differnt sized hands and so on... I could be wrong though. Correct, once you buy a cheapie it is difficult to convert it to the Swiss or Asian eta. When I said buy a cheapie and replace the movement when it breaks I meant replace it with another cheapie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiverDoug Posted October 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Good to know. Thanks for the clarification! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chango Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Welcome Diver Doug! As for reliability: My personal experience has been all over the place with movements. I've had both low-end (2813) and high end movements (A2824, ETA 2824) and neither has been more reliable or less than the other. It's a total crap shoot in this business. It took me a while to just accept the fact that you must factor in a servicing to any replica watch you buy. That way you won't be disappointed when it craps out on you. The only difference I have seen between the 2813 and 2836/2824 movements is a smoother second hand sweep. I've since developed a personal disdain for any automatic replica chronograph movement (the 7750s) as every single one I've owned has developed issues on short order. A lot of this hobby is trial and error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiverDoug Posted October 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Thanks for that. I guess I'm going to have to go to the next phase and order a watch and see what (in terms of quality) arrives. If it's a crap shoot, then I guess it's time to pull the pin and get moving! Anyone have any recommended TDs ? :-) Best regards, Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyB Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 The DG movements seem to me to be a tad easier to work with than the ETA movements. The obvious advantage is the initial cost, but when it is time to service the movement the ETA will cost anywhere from $100 to $250, and the DG, well, you de-case it, strip it down, carefully place it on the bench, then, using a 40oz hammer, whack the SOB brushing the pieces into the trash. Put in a nice, new clean DG from Otto Frei or other supplier for about $25 and you're done. As was said by others, the movements that come in our reps are usually dirty, and a service is recommended. I have both ETA and DG in my builds, and just as far as function, they are equals. It's nice in my head to have a genuine swiss movement, but I'm not certain that is the 'best' choice. 'Best' choice is a very individual choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitmic Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Thanks for that. I guess I'm going to have to go to the next phase and order a watch and see what (in terms of quality) arrives. If it's a crap shoot, then I guess it's time to pull the pin and get moving! Anyone have any recommended TDs ? :-) Best regards, Doug I also stay away from 7750-movements. Some have great luck with them, but I have had no luck at all. When it comes to TDs it's a purely personal choice. I have dealt with a few of them and they all deliver what you pay for. Some are slow with email response some are lightening fast! Some provide quality control (QC)photos others don't. Some ship your watchs within days, others after a week or two. You get the point. You could read reviews of the dealers. They have their respective sections here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chango Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Your choice of TD is very personal. Sometime it depends on what your looking for (eg noob vs BP products). Otherwise I've found Andrew at TT and Toro Bravo to be the most helpful and receptive to inquiries. You'll develop your own preferences in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiverDoug Posted October 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 (edited) I really like the reps from Andrew, so he will likely be who I go to first. I think I'll do a little more research into TDs and how they operate. I'll start a new "My first rep purchase" thread :-) ! Edited October 3, 2013 by DiverDoug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martijnp Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 First of all, welcome to RWG! I think you just found the right place. Great to see you've did your homework wich we really appriceate! About the TD's Andrew is a great guy. I only dealt with Joshua at Perfect Clones. He's also highly recomended. Share the pics when you receive the watch mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiverDoug Posted October 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 The DG movements seem to me to be a tad easier to work with than the ETA movements. Silly noob questions (hey, "noob" and "silly" = a tautology!), but what is a "DG" movement ? Nice method of "servicing" the watch too ! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyB Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 The 'DG' movements are the 21j movements offered in rep watches, as in DG2813, DG3804B, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 The DGs etc are cheaply made Chinese movements based on the seagull Chinese movements..... the 2813 is basically on par with a Miyota 8215...however it has similar sizing to any ETA 28**s.... there are variable in hand sizing etc but generally speaking.. Overall they are cheap movements which cost anything from $5 to $10 at best $20-30 at worst.... they are easy to work on but are not worth having serviced... so if you can do the work thats great but the movemnts are not worth the expense of a service....if you do have one that goes its better to replace... They tend to be used by the makers to replace 2836 movements...and as such tend to be hacky in thier sweep when compared to a 2836.... so you tend to be able to spot them from the seconds hands movement around the dial...or register. As with any Chinese made movement in reps... they vary mainly in quality.... so you can get one that will go on and on or you can get one that will last only a short time.... thsi is because they are sourced from different makers (not rep makers...movement makers who supply the rep makers)...so say a noob 2813 might vary in quality from say a BP makers 2813... however you also have to add in the other usual issues that effects all chinese and rep watch movements...that is dirt, over or under oiling and generally sloppiness in building, handling, storing and shipping I have had a few reps with these movements... generally if the gen has a well known clean sweep seconds hand I tend to avoid them but for lesser known models I have had them or if I want to try a cheaper version before committing to a new movement or better version rep... Out of the dozen or so i have had I would say the failure rate/quality has been around 75%... but that really is luck or rather bad luck... Overall they can be decent workhorses for budget reps.... but dont consider ever paying to get one serviced..... it really aint worth it given the cost of the service.... generally it would work out cheaper to get a ready to go Swiss... assuming you use your search skills or just a clone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 There is one thing to remember in the swiss Eta vs Asian 21 jewel movement debates...It all depends on the condition of the movement.Anyone who has worked on a lot of swiss Etas and Asian '21 jewelers' can easily tell the difference in quality between the two...the 21 jewelers come in dead last. What makes heroes out of them is when someone gets a dud swiss Eta (dirty and/or worn out) in a watch and compares it with a watch with a properly cared for 21 jeweler that runs fine.The reason why it is easier to replace a 21 jeweler than service it is obvious...they are not worth servicing. When a swiss Eta is properly c/o it will run for years and replacement parts are fairly cheap and always available. Not so with Asian 21 jewelers. They are so cheaply made that time setting parts and date parts are always breaking and autowind problems are fairly common...no supply house stocks parts for them. There is no denying that a good one will run for quite a while and keep pretty good time but the fact remains that they are probably made for $5USD or less each and are not meant to last very long. They are fairly rugged though and will take a beating.Cheapo movements are usually pretty rugged. Anyone remember how tough the early mechanical Timex watches were? I do. Anyone see inside the average Patek, AP, VC? I have. One drop and they are history. They are made to be pretty, not rugged.Here is my take on Asian etaclones (2824/36, 2892 etc)...They are Ok if you want a lower initial cost 'keeper' watch that will accept a swiss Eta when the Asian etaclone goes DOA sooner or later. Swiss Etas will swap out with Asian etaclones but swiss Etas will not swap out with Asian 21 jewelers as the dial feet and hands are different and will not fit. I would never waste time c/o an Asian etaclone if a swiss Eta was handy.Asian etaclone 7750 vs swiss 7750 are another story. I do not want another 7750, swiss or asian. Ever.Why?Work on one and you will see why. Except for the mainplate they look like they were made in a muffler shop...imho.If I wanted an asian chronograph movement, I would go with the Seagull ST19 or the new automatic version of the same.If I wanted a swiss eta 7750 chronograph...I would remember the last one I had and be over it (Hamilton Khaki). I am not much of a mechanical chronograph guy.Eight or ten years ago many replicas had new swiss Etas in them but this is not the case today. Most swiss Eta models will have used or nos movements that have been stored for years and need c/o to run reliably. My guess is very few new/fresh swiss Etas are installed in replicas today (fresh = hermetically sealed in foil packs).I will say this...a properly serviced swiss Eta in a decently sealed replica case with quality case tube/crown etc will last for a looong time. I have a couple swiss Eta 2846 steel DJ from the late 1980s/early 1990s that still run just fine. Bought them out of an ad in USA Today.Everyone (including me) grumbles about the ever increasing prices for swiss Etas but do not say anything about the rise in Asian 21 jeweler prices. I bought a dozen DG 2813 about 10 years ago and they were $8.95USD each...now they are $18 to $25USD. Because they are still so cheap compared to swiss Etas no one complains about a 100%+ rise in prices.It's like the man said:"Yo' pays yo' money and yo' takes yo' choice."There ain't no free lunch.Edit:PeteM...I started my post before you posted yours but screwed around and did not put it up. Looks like we were thinking alike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyB Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Bear in mind that the DG2813 and DG3804B are slow beat movements, while the ETA 2836-2 is a high beat movement. The second hand sweep is noticeably smoother on the high beat, but vintage calls for the choppier slow beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 I agree mate but its is not really what I meant in this case to hi or lo beat.... the sweep or hackiness of the seconds hands relates more to the tension within it...the lighter the more noticeable... that is common in both It is unlikely that many would notice a difference of 6 to 8 beats on the wrist.... it is easier to hear than see... in addition size of dial and length of secs hand all influence the way it looks as it revolves... And i suppose its also worth mentioning then... that the 21J isnt actually a 21J its a 22J... As an aside....what or who is JoeyB? I remember many guys calling the white dial Legende a baseball.... and your avatar reminds me of that dialled watch...is it related to baseball? Is taht what the guys were on about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyB Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Nope. The 'logo' is just something I fiddled with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 Nope. The 'logo' is just something I fiddled with. Thanks mate...so what is the logo of....or what was it mate? Is it baseball related originally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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