RWI - Banned

[agentsmith350]

First of all sorry for the rant , I just need to speak out about this.

 

I was a member of RWI for some time , Had a few m2m's and all positive.

 

Then in August along came a guy selling a watch i had been looking at for a while in the m2m , However when it arrived it was DOA and had undisclosed scratches and marks , I tried to communicate with him then he went silent , Tried the RWI ticket system and the guy was ignoring that mod / taking days to respond. 

 

Starting to panic i opened a Paypal dispute with no intention to escalate only in an attempt to get him to reply , and surprise surprise the guy responds straight away this time. Now i have never dealt with anyone that twists things so much but this guy is obviously in cahoots with the forum owner. I started getting PM's from trailboss ( forum owner ) and told him it was being dealt with via RWI ticketing system and another admin as per forum rules/guidlines and didnt see the need for his involvement , I was told its his forum and he will deal with this however he wants along with more messages which from memory where more orders from the lies the guy had told him.

 

The person i bought the watch from then puts a load of rubbish in the comments of the paypal case and escalates it himself to prevent me responding , Funnily enough paypal side with me and im asked to return the watch.

 

I agree to this and start getting postage prices , due to the price of the insured post I contacted the seller and asked if they would prefer to contribute to the repair of the watch ( I begin to get prices ) I get only snotty replies and more messages from trailboss who is being told i am refusing to return the watch ( this is all within 12 hours of the paypal case being decided in my favor ) 

 

Now at this point i should have just sent it back , but i had the watch that i wanted that could be repaired , and didnt want to risk him then refusing to refund and having the watch and my money. I looked around for info on the movement and being no stranger to watch innards decided to take a look , within a day or so i have found the issue ( dislodged jewel ) and repaired it. I then promptly closed the paypal case glad to put it behind me.

 

Next day i log on to RWI and bang iv been banned by trail boss for opening a PP dispute.

 

This is the correspondence from then -

 

Me :

 

Hi ,

 

I have just tried to logon to RWI and found my account has been banned for "non authorised PP dispute"  I dont think this is deserved for what i assume was the mess with Andrew , I have forwarded the messages below so you can see i was being reasonable and so you can see exactly what was said. You can see i was quite happy for his friend to fix it until he stopped communication refusing to deal with me. PP was the only way i could get him to answer me and as far as i could see he had stolen my money.  I assume by your message to me asking why i hadnt sent the watch was because he had messaged you - I have the next set of emails available to forward that show I agreed to return the watchthe very same day he asked so he was only trying to cause more hassle by messaging yourself saying i hadn't sent it .

 

I dont know what else he has since said to you but i closed the Paypal dispute as i am confident i can repair the watch myself for the price for the parts which was almost that of the delivery to return the watch , when i mentioned this to him i was met with more hostility and couldnt put up with him anymore so closed the case.

 

I seem to have been made out to be the bad guy here , All i wanted was the watch i bought to be as described , Instead i got a scratched watch with jewels missing and DOA followed by all this hassle then a ban ...  I cannot see how this is fair in any way.

 

Regards"

 

 

Trailboss :

 

"Rules is rules, you should know that any PP dispute without permission of the sales mods is grounds for a ban, it’s in the forum rules. You made no attempt to settle this in the correct manner via the sales moderators, you simply went to PayPal.

 

You then refused to follow the directions of PP and return the watch for a refund which resulted in the guy’s PP account staying frozen. You assured me on several occasions that it would be returned and that never happened. You wish to play in our sandbox you do so by our (and PP’s) rules."

 

Me :

 

I did not go straight to Paypal , I opened an RWI ticket first , Andrew was taking days to reply to the admin dealing with it and i thought he was not going to so opened the case to get him to respond and did not esaclate it to a claim.

 

Not once did i refuse to follow the directions of PP , HE escalated it to them then as soon as they came back to say it was decided in my favor i told him THE SAME DAY i would return the watch. Then closed the Paypal case when i found the postage was nearly the price of repair.

 

Yes there are rules and if i felt i had done something to justify a permanent ban i would not question it , But you have obviously been misinformed here as to how things went."

 

 

I never received a response despite two follow up mails asking him to reply 

 

To put this in perspective a quote from the RWI sales rules/guidelines - 

 

If you intend on selling something, be prepared to help your buyer with any issues. The staff will always side with the buyer first, these statements mean nothing if you send out a watch and it is DOA. No matter what your terms are, you need to be held accountable for what you sell. Understand that mistakes happen and be open to helping others fix issues. Otherwise, we consider that you are just using RWI as a dumping ground for faulty watches and your privileges will be removed.

 

Thank you in advance for your cooperation. 

 

R2D4 Admin.

 

 

Im sorry for the long post and to bring this here but needed to tell someone in the community , I had friends on that forum that iv now lost contact with and the more i read on other forums the more what happened on RWI seems unfair.

 

I dont expect many replies if any from anyone adn that isnt the point of this thread , i Just needed to voice this somewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PeteM]

Much as I understand the route you took....

 

If you go to the main question.... "Did you breach the RWI forum rules and open a PP dispute without Forum approval"

 

The answer is yes as you state so no matter anything else mate as in most cases of 'self defence' the rules dont always help the guy defending himself... but they is the rules.

 

When selling I always video the watch working and resetting correctly prior to packing with timestamp...that way I can show the watch is functioning prior to leaving me... because it is very easy no matter the packaging for a rep to die in transit.... it has happened to me on a few occasions and I have never complained I just consider it part of the risk...

 

As for the scratches well I cant comment on that ... one mans scratch is another mans desk swirl... it is a very subjective and eyesight related opinion...by eyesight I am not being crass I genuinely mean that what one persons sees another may not for many reasons....and can be totally genuine in the reasoning.. within reason

 

In that case I would buff out the scratches or have them buffed out..... again for me its part of the game...

 

 

Without seeing the sales thread or knowing the way you bought it..ie your questions etc then my initial response is you seem to expect more from this hobby and buying than maybe you should...dont get me wrong mate I aint saying you have just that you seem to from what you write...

 

TB is a good guy IMHO and can be a bit curt at times but he is absolute when it comes to rules especially given the way you moved off the process required under RWI rules...

 

I can see why you might but you must also understand the otherside of the coin and look at it as if you were the mod on RWI.... and accept you made a considered choice to sort out the issue you had with your watch outside the process required.... maybe it was out of frustration but regardless you chose that course...

 

TBH Iif I was a mod I would hve to have banned you too...

 

But maybe thats why i aint a mod

[martijnp]

I hope you can work things out, I really do! But like Pete already said the main qestion is, did you open a PP dispute without forum aproval? 

I also agree with the admin, rules are rules, period. But I understand you might do it in a whim..

[KB]

2 points...1) It is Trailboss's forum you play by his rules or you do not belong. Sorry if that sounds harsh but you should not bring an eBay mentality to a private forum. 2) PP disputes are a very last option, you have 45 days if you pass the 30 day mark and are no closer to resolution I am sure Trailboss would be more sympathetic, what you did was to circumvent RWI's resolution process.

 

Yes you may have been the wronged party in the transaction but that still does not give you the right to disregard forum rules.

 

Ken 

[Tonyyammine]

Yea im going to take trailboss side on this. I stopped reading when you said you waited a few days and opened a pp dispute. I would have banned you too. These are rep forums. Your supposed to follows the rules and let the mods help when they get to you. things will or wont work out when all else fails then u do what you have to. If you cant wait and don't like the way things go, this isn't for you..

Edited November 26, 2013 by Tonyyammine

[agentsmith350]

It just seemed to me that things weren't working out and the seller was ignoring all comms , I waited a week from the seller ignoring me and the RWI ticket to opening the paypal case , and this was done only to get them to reply.

 

I appreciate form TB's view "rules are rules" but if that's the case why not leave it to the mod dealing with the ticket ,  It was a single use of PP dispute ( out of many sales ) and it was the seller who escalated it to a claim , I believe i noted in the ticket i was going to do this to get a reply from them ( no longer have access to be sure ) It left me feeling as though I was being made out to be the bad guy. The mod who was helping with the ticket was being great and dealing with things well however the other guy undercut him and went to TB which isn't how the rules say things work.

 

I dont really want to turn this thread into a plea or debate so apologies if that is what it seems

[Guest]

However when it arrived it was DOA and had undisclosed scratches and marks , I tried to communicate with him then he went silent , Tried the RWI ticket system and the guy was ignoring that mod / taking days to respond.

Starting to panic i opened a Paypal dispute with no intention to escalate only in an attempt to get him to reply , and surprise surprise the guy responds straight away this time.

Not taking sides here but I really hate when seller only responds after an intermediary has to step in. I don't condone the PayPal dispute either.

[freddy333]

Regardless of the 'rules, you should always give the other party at least 2 weeks from the time of your last communication (& do not bombard them with repeated messages - that is the quickest way to become a nuisance & get ignored - remember, people have offline lives) before considering a PP dispute. Then, after waiting 2 weeks, send 1 final email warning that if you do not receive a response with 48 hours, you will open a PP dispute. That usually gets the other party's attention. If not, then they deserve to deal with PP.

[Akira]

I'm permanently banned on RWI and RWG.bz...

 

I was temporarily banned here and once or twice on RG as well, if my memory serves me correctly.

 

The only forums I participate and I've not been banned yet are HF and VRF - even though RC threatened to do so in the past

 

My advice? Just let it be... this hobby is for fun and laughs, not to make you miserable!

 

A

[zero_deficit]

Your reasoning is understandable in why you started a PP dispute, but starting one is not your decision to make in the rep game. Even if you had approached the mods first, you pretty much disregarded them once you raised that dispute. You don't know what the resolution process for them is like, you didn't know how far along they were in solving the issue...

 

But in any case, I hope it all gets resolved for you

[Tonyyammine]

It just seemed to me that things weren't working out and the seller was ignoring all comms , I waited a week from the seller ignoring me and the RWI ticket to opening the paypal case , and this was done only to get them to reply.

I appreciate form TB's view "rules are rules" but if that's the case why not leave it to the mod dealing with the ticket , It was a single use of PP dispute ( out of many sales ) and it was the seller who escalated it to a claim , I believe i noted in the ticket i was going to do this to get a reply from them ( no longer have access to be sure ) It left me feeling as though I was being made out to be the bad guy. The mod who was helping with the ticket was being great and dealing with things well however the other guy undercut him and went to TB which isn't how the rules say things work.

I dont really want to turn this thread into a plea or debate so apologies if that is what it seems

Just by the fact that you didnt throw a hissy crybaby fit when you read our comments against u shows your a good guy. just stick to this hobby and seek help when u have a problem. Everyone here will help u out.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Tonyyammine

[PGWDaddy]

The rules being what they are allow for bad business practices. Whats stopping anyone from saying "I have 10 days to do this and another 45 days to do this before anyone can do that?" Let's be frank; as I seller I'm not going to ignore messages or emails for 10 days if I'm serious about making the sale. If you do, you stand to loose the buyer. Equally true as a buyer. If you wait 10 days before you initiate the purchase, you'll loose out. So why handle the situation as such AFTER money and produce have exchanged hands?

 

Yes, things happen buts its more common, from what I've learned, for a person to ignore a message after the fact than it is for "something to come up". The rules allow you to calculate your time before action is taken. You can ignore everyone to include the moderators and the other party can't use the PP protection without running the risk of being banned. 

 

Rep game or not, there's something wrong with this from a good faith and business perspective. The rules should be reviewed. Further, it should be well known what the resolution steps the moderators take to resolve the problem. If they're lax, they should be tightened. For example, if the buyer/seller can't go to PP and file a dispute, shorten the time allowed before the mods go to PP and file a dispute...something along those lines. Tighter guidelines protect everyone. The mods can use good judgement but taking away the excess wiggle-room will keep situations like this from happening all together.

Edited November 26, 2013 by PGWDaddy

[jion]

Agree with PGWDaddy.

Ignoring the buyer for days is not acceptable. Buyer not following the rules is not right either. But in this case, after the money is paid, I understand how panic the buyer feels especially the seller is not responding. IMO while buyer got punished, seller ain't no wrong too.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[envision]

I'm a new guy. This thread is an example of one reason I signed up. There are a lot of other, technical and artisan reasons to be here. But as the comments here indicate, there is a lot of professionalism even in how constructive criticism is handed out. I've seen it many places on the forum. I like that people want each other to survive. Want each other to be within the rules. And want each other to enjoy this world.

[PeteM]

I'm a new guy. This thread is an example of one reason I signed up. There are a lot of other, technical and artisan reasons to be here. But as the comments here indicate, there is a lot of professionalism even in how constructive criticism is handed out. I've seen it many places on the forum. I like that people want each other to survive. Want each other to be within the rules. And want each other to enjoy this world.

 

 

And that are willing to put up with me ....

[Tonyyammine]

Yea this guy is a ball breaker just look at his avatar. Lol

[KB]

Just to be clear, if what the OP laid out is correct then yes he was the wronged party.

 

However RWI has a policy on how to deal with these situations and they also have a very strong policy against PP disputes...why?

 

Because it is the people who use PP as a first option that are destroying our hobby, most dealers who have years of excellent reviews cannot use PP because of the selfish, unrealistic or instant gratification people who, by starting PP disputes, have seen their accounts closed.

 

Even this forum which has been a safe haven for so many has suffered many problems because of PP issues.

 

All the RWI team asked was to be given time to sort the issue their way, no one would have begrudged the OP starting a dispute if time was running out and there was no resolution but he states clearly that he opened the dispute within days.

 

The other party may very well be trying to scam...but then he may also have simply gone on a business trip too.

 

As I said before all these boards are privately owned, they have their own rules and if you wish to be a part of the community then you are expected to follow those rules, your preferred business practices simply do not count.

 

Ken

[agentsmith350]

Thanks for the comments guys , Good to hear your thoughts.

 

 

Hi Ken ,

 

Thanks for your post looks a fair comment , Just wanted to respond to a couple points that im not sure if are made in general or direct to my case , its not meant as an argument or anything.

 

In this case the PP was with a private sale , Iv always resolved issues with dealers via emails with them as i know the impact PP claims against dealers would have for our family of forums.

 

Whilst I appreciate going the RWI ticket route will take a little time , I had already been dealing with the seller via email and been ignored and even told he wasn't going to deal with me , I did open a RWI ticket and a week past with no contact from the seller before i resorted to PP only to get him to respond , which worked as they replied straight away and actually escalated it to a dispute/claim , just didn't go their way when PP sided with myself.

 

I do see that maybe it would have been looked upon better if i had waited more than i already had and discussed PP option more withing the ticket system , At the same time i do feel that i kept to the rules/procedures more or as much as some others involved , I was happy dealing within the ticket system until the seller started messaging TB outside the case rather than responding to me or the ticket and i started getting PM's direct from TB,  I saw this as an attempt to clutch at straws and get TB to throw his weight around a little by twisting things when the seller realized the ticket wasn't going his way. I informed TB that there was already a ticket open and asked to keep to the ticket but was told some thing along the lines of its my forum il do as i like. In my eyes I would have accepted maybe a short term ban and at least a warning to the seller but for the only outcome to be my account getting a permanent ban dosnt seem justified/fair.

 

Starting to rant a little here again so will wrap this up   Just wanted to clear any possible confusion on my previous posts. I dont meant to make a big deal out of it so apologies if that's how it seems , Way to make an intro hey !

[KB]

Yes all that is fair and just for the record we have a different set of rules here as the Admin team will not involve ourselves in m2m sales.

 

I can easily see how you have been wronged by the seller but not so much by RWI admin team.

 

My only point has been that RWI, just like all the boards, have the right to set their own rules and expect them to be followed.

 

Finally PP disputes in this hobby should be used only on proven scammers, it's a case of the less this is done the less we draw attention to ourselves.

 

Ken

[Star69]

haha finding this thread makes me feel better 

 

im banned in Repgeek and RWI now - nearly the same situation - i really got totally scammed be an well known member in Repgeek.

 

I got the most [censored] up watch ever in all this years in the forums - and the seller, instead of trying to make things right calls me all kind of names on top ....

 

anyway - I asked Mysterio as a mod on Repgeek for help - got no response but an permanent ban message on screen.

 

Then is sent him an PM on RWI asking why i was banned when im asking for help with an member and got there banned too 

 

Well - thanks Mysterio for your help - NOT 

 

cheers,

Frank

Edited November 19, 2014 by Star69

[TeeJay]

I think you shot yourself in the foot, not so much with the PP dispute (although I can understand that that may be against a forum's rules...) butwhen you looked into repair rather than return after PP said to send it back for a refund, as TB might've felt you were trying to shift the situation to 'have your cake and eat it' (although I can understand why you would prefer to keep the watch and have it repaired than send it back) I think this is just an unfortunate series of events, but you're clearly not a bad guy, and I hope the situation gets resolved for you

[ceocorona]

2013 thread...