Decals print dials

[jimcon11]

Stage 2: Gilt chapter ring with gold print text

 

Some things I've noticed in working on these:

-Decal setting solutions like microset/sol are not a good idea. The decal paper you can buy to print on, at least the stuff I got "Kodiak", is too delicate for them. The microsol solution, which is supposed to make decals basically sink into the surface of the base, just eats right through the decal.

 

-Be prepared to cut out and apply about 5 decals for every 1 you get to set properly with no damage. Between defects in the paper and print, trying to smooth out wrinkles, and random ink bleeding from the water, most decals do not end up looking pristine and you have to start over.

 

-There is a perfect medium of gloss lacquer over the decal. Too little and the decal isn't protected, too much and all the gold detail starts to look dull. I found that 3 coats of about 4 quick spray passes each is the ideal. The stuff I've been using, Krylon crystal clear, dries really quickly, so this step can be completed in just a couple hours.

 

-There is such a thing as too glossy. After the lacquer dries, the dial is super glossy but the blacks are full of a vertical "scan line" texture from the decal film that looks very bad. Sanding with polishing cloth is a must. I found that anywhere between 1200 and 4000 grit looks good, with 4000 retaining the deepest black but 1200 doing the best at removing the annoying scan line texture. It sounds paradoxical, but the less glossy your dial, the more the gilt details will stand out.

 

-For this to be done right you really need to gold plate the dial. I haven't tried this yet, but the polished brass, while attractive, is really too dark and pale to be convincing. 

 

-If you need to produce colored text, oil based paint pens work very well. These dials have gold paint text with the polished brass chapter rings and indices, similar to how Tudor produced them. 

 

Next step is luming these and hopefully not ruining them as I did my first batch. All I can say is that getting the right lume mixture is not easy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan72]

Stage 2: Gilt chapter ring with gold print text
 
Some things I've noticed in working on these:
-Decal setting solutions like microset/sol are not a good idea. The decal paper you can buy to print on, at least the stuff I got "Kodiak", is too delicate for them. The microsol solution, which is supposed to make decals basically sink into the surface of the base, just eats right through the decal.
 
-Be prepared to cut out and apply about 5 decals for every 1 you get to set properly with no damage. Between defects in the paper and print, trying to smooth out wrinkles, and random ink bleeding from the water, most decals do not end up looking pristine and you have to start over.
 
-There is a perfect medium of gloss lacquer over the decal. Too little and the decal isn't protected, too much and all the gold detail starts to look dull. I found that 3 coats of about 4 quick spray passes each is the ideal. The stuff I've been using, Krylon crystal clear, dries really quickly, so this step can be completed in just a couple hours.
 
-There is such a thing as too glossy. After the lacquer dries, the dial is super glossy but the blacks are full of a vertical "scan line" texture from the decal film that looks very bad. Sanding with polishing cloth is a must. I found that anywhere between 1200 and 4000 grit looks good, with 4000 retaining the deepest black but 1200 doing the best at removing the annoying scan line texture. It sounds paradoxical, but the less glossy your dial, the more the gilt details will stand out.
 
-For this to be done right you really need to gold plate the dial. I haven't tried this yet, but the polished brass, while attractive, is really too dark and pale to be convincing. 
 
-If you need to produce colored text, oil based paint pens work very well. These dials have gold paint text with the polished brass chapter rings and indices, similar to how Tudor produced them. 
 
Next step is luming these and hopefully not ruining them as I did my first batch. All I can say is that getting the right lume mixture is not easy.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Looks good, hope the lume goes well

[JoeyB]

Microset is used to set the decal, it slightly flattens and stretches, wrinkles and bubbles are smoothed easily with a wet Q-tip.  I wouldn't make a dial without it. MicroSol is meant to 'melt' the decal to form on/around shapes, like rivets or bolts on model trains or airplanes, etc. It will kill the decal for our use.  

I use Krylon Crystal clear to seal the decal after printing, still on the paper and before mounting on the dial. Dust is the only issue I encounter. I usually print 6 dials on a sized blank decal paper, spray, and pick the best to use, or do it over again if a speck of dust ruined it. 

I print my dials on a Canon printer that has a max of 9600 dpi. I found that anything over 5000 dpi just made puddles. I use clear decals and the prepared brass dial face shows through for the gilt letters, numbers and markers. 400 grit sandpaper slightly swirled gives me the gilt look, and is surely more than 'gilty' enough in color for a 60+ year old dial.  

 I use a 'glow paint' for lume which is water based so as not to ruin the decal or the sealer. It dries in a texture that looks like an aged lume should, correct lume color and length of glow for a 60+ year old watch. Any mistake can be wiped using a wet Q-tip for a do-over. But it is a thin seal, so you might get 2 or 3 do overs before you lose the dial. I tint to color using a kid's water-based paint set from the dollar store. 

 

I made my first dial decal a little over 10 years ago, I think I was first to do it here, and have posted about the on-going improvement process since. The 'search' function should bring up all of it. Essentially it takes some practice to secure a positive technique.  I can't take a picture worth a damn, but this will give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

 

 

[jimcon11]

Thanks for the info Joey. Your lume there looks perfect, I have no idea how you painted that so neatly. 

 

Perhaps the decal paper I'm using is too delicate, but I found that even the microset solution coated on the dial to begin was causing the decal to bleed and weaken, or maybe it's just my imagination.

 

Compared side by side to one of my Vietnam dials, the brass did not look yellow enough. But now that I have a dial done and cased up, I feel like it looks pretty convincing. 

 

I did something a little crazy on this one. I noticed that my dial was fading and somehow moisture was getting under the acrylic coating and leaving little silvering marks. I found earlier that the oil from my fingers would deepen the black of the dial, so I decided to try giving the dial a very light coat of leather oil with a q tip just before installing it. The oil coating made the black really shine and totally masked all the little imperfections. I have no idea how it will hold up, but as it stands now I'm pretty amazed that I saved this one.

 

My luming still needs improvement but overall I think this looks alright. I've gained a ton of respect for the people who make the Vietnam dials... I think they are quite a bargain really. 

 

[Bart Cordell]

Thanks for the info Joey. Your lume there looks perfect, I have no idea how you painted that so neatly. 
 
Perhaps the decal paper I'm using is too delicate, but I found that even the microset solution coated on the dial to begin was causing the decal to bleed and weaken, or maybe it's just my imagination.
 
Compared side by side to one of my Vietnam dials, the brass did not look yellow enough. But now that I have a dial done and cased up, I feel like it looks pretty convincing. 
 
I did something a little crazy on this one. I noticed that my dial was fading and somehow moisture was getting under the acrylic coating and leaving little silvering marks. I found earlier that the oil from my fingers would deepen the black of the dial, so I decided to try giving the dial a very light coat of leather oil with a q tip just before installing it. The oil coating made the black really shine and totally masked all the little imperfections. I have no idea how it will hold up, but as it stands now I'm pretty amazed that I saved this one.
 
My luming still needs improvement but overall I think this looks alright. I've gained a ton of respect for the people who make the Vietnam dials... I think they are quite a bargain really. 
 

Your dial look really nice mate.
I think dial makers use a stylograph to apply lume.
And don’t forget... we are the only ones, beside the one we can’t pronounce his name, to make real gilt dials. Vietnamese dial are not gold but silver with a yellow varnish.

[JoeyB]

My lume is far from perfect, or even good. It is passable and surely better from a distance! Practice. That's all it is. I've tried all sorts of tools to lume with, oilers and toothpicks and ultra fine brushes. Women used to hand paint lume on dials using a brush, licking the tip for sharpness and getting radiation poisoning in the process. I use a bamboo shish-ka-bob skewer for the round markers, flatten the tip, dip and one touch in the center of the marker. Being older than dirt, I need more help with the coronet and straight markers. I use a nib pen, which gives me better control. If you look at pictures of the gens taken back in the 1950s, they aren't perfect either. That is a clear benefit of replicating 60+ year old watches. They weren't perfect, nor cranked out by machines, but hand made with all the human imperfections. And I can do imperfections like an expert! 

[jimcon11]

"The one we can't pronounce his name" lol... honestly the secrecy surrounding this guy is a little much. I think everyone should have access to a gilt dial with the correct typography. Thanks for your help Bart, I couldn't have gotten this result without your posts and tips. 

 

Thanks for the lume advice Joey. Right now I want to take a break but eventually I'm sure more dials are in the works. You mentioned pictures of gens taken in the 1950s.. I've barely been able to find any of these vintage pictures. It's a topic that interests me, since they give insight into how these watches looked in a nearly new condition, how they were worn, etc. I might start a thread about it some time. 

 

Anyway, is my lume a bit too yellow? I always lume in lamp light and the lume seems too grey and dull so I add some yellow paint, then when I get out in sunlight it seems I went overboard.. Also in this pic you can see what I mean a bit that the brass chapter ring is perhaps a bit too dark compared to the gens.

 

 

[JoeyB]

The color looks good here. I use brown water color to tint the lume which starts out just a bit 'beige'. It all depends on what you want, and as far as gens go, what they've been through. Many have chapter rings and marker outlines that look white, but that's from oxidation of the gilt over the years. Use google search images for the old Rolex models. There are plenty.  

[Nanuq]

Roger that JoeyB. My 6536 is a deep buttery yellow and the 1675 is bright & brassy and almost looks fake.

[JoeyB]

Like people, and all else in life, watches age by what they are subjected to. Personally, I've aged beautifully to the point that I get excited just looking in the mirror... 

[spazthecat]

Finally got my print driver settings dialed in. My first dial attempt is below (unfinished, freshly slid onto dial plate)It’s got some defects in the paper so, I’ll have to be a little more careful when I do it “for real” but, all in all, I’m pretty happy.

Thanks for all the tips in this thread and others.

—Andy




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[jimcon11]

On 1/1/2019 at 3:00 PM, spazthecat said:

Finally got my print driver settings dialed in. My first dial attempt is below (unfinished, freshly slid onto dial plate)It’s got some defects in the paper so, I’ll have to be a little more careful when I do it “for real” but, all in all, I’m pretty happy.

Thanks for all the tips in this thread and others.

—Andy

That looks good to me, is the text sharp enough for you? 

 

My printer does those vertical pinhole marks on the decal too and they're a pain in the ass.. they basically leave a weak point where brass can start showing through. I researched it some and there's no easy fix, but if you're brave you could try removing those ninja star wheels from your printer.  I found that after a few coats of lacquer and some careful sanding and polishing I could make them disappear.

[spazthecat]

That looks good to me, is the text sharp enough for you? 
 
My printer does those vertical pinhole marks on the decal too and they're a pain in the ass.. they basically leave a weak point where brass can start showing through. I researched it some and there's no easy fix, but if you're brave you could try removing those ninja star wheels from your printer.  I found that after a few coats of lacquer and some careful sanding and polishing I could make them disappear.

Sort of. I’d like it sharper but I think it’s a limitation of my printer. There’s a small bit of ink “overspray” into the white areas. I’ve cleaned the print head, even removed it and rinsed it with alcohol until the run off was clear. Ran all of the realignment and print test utilities and the result is the same. I have access to an HP DesignJet printer at work, I might give it a try with that if I can get a little private time with the printer.

Yep, those pinholes are annoying. Fortunately they aren’t present on each dial on the sheet. And, like you, found you can pretty effectively make the disappear with a little sanding another another layer of Krylon.

Thanks,
Andy


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[spazthecat]

Tried the printer at work and it definitely gives a better result. Black is denser and more even and text is sharper.






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[JoeyB]

I made this one several years ago. You re welcomed to use it if you like. 

oops! Wrong thread. Sorry. 

[manodeoro]

5 hours ago, JoeyB said:

I made this one several years ago. You re welcomed to use it if you like. 

oops! Wrong thread. Sorry. 

YEP !!! wrong thread Joey ... I already answered on the other one and put a picture of my own dial build 😉