ubiquitous Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 This is one of those pieces... Posted on another forum, but I thought it would be interesting for the education of those here (who may be interested in genuine vintage Rolex as well). This is an interesting frankenwatch... I'll let the pics do the talking. But what's more... Who is making such pieces? I have a few sources in mind, but have not confirmed anything as of yet. Someone is going through quite a lot of effort in building such a piece... It's apparent that it's fake to someone who is familiar with this model, but to someone just cutting their teeth in the collector's world, this could be a costly mistake... Pics were borrowed from the original post- They are not mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Looks like you posted pics of 2 different watches. The watch in the first pic has crown guards. I have absolutely no idea what are the tell-tales of this being a fake. I don't know anything about the Bond Sub... and frankly I think it doesn't have the same presence and attraction as the later models. I know how valuable they are though... So... are we waiting for Nanuq or are you going to tell us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Totally out of my area of expertise...so I'll leave any comments to those that know stuff about these. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigpops Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 I know almost nothing about that model sub (see? I don't even know the number). But, i can't help thinking that the case looks a little thick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gioarmani Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Interesting--I'm curious as to where you found that and exactly how much they were raping someone for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z80 Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 I would think "geez.. can't that guy afford a new watch?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RiverwindMDS Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 I like that movement... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Oops... Yes, the first pic is of a completely different watch (please disregard... It was not part of the actual set, but found it's way into my post...). I'll edit and remove in a moment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 .Have a look at the details... Like the caseback (specifically the engraving...). The movement is correct, I believe... Some other tells are present as well... But all in all, this is a dangerous piece (and with someone representing this as genuine, it's no wonder why franken-makers get a bad rap). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionsandtigers Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 sure is a mightly clean case for a watch of that age, i am thinking that the case is not orignial, if gen at all. the movement looks to be the real deal though, curious finding there randy.....wish i knew more about this model to find all of the discrepencies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cortopar Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 I'll take a stab... Maybe there were dial variations that I'm not aware of, but I thought the 6538's with 1030 were labeled "OFFICIALLY CERTIFIED CHRONOMETER" and "SWISS" at 6 below the solid ring that connects the minute markers. The original bezel insert did not have minute graduations between 0 and 15 as this one. If the case isn't genuine, it certainly looks it to me. The minute hand is too short. It should extend just barely over the outer ring that connects the minute markers. EDIT: Almost forgot... the dial markers at 3, 6 and 9 should have the cross bars (at the short end) extend past the longer border edges. Think an "I" beam of steel. The markers on this one just look rectangular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heywood Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 I saw the original post on the other forum regarding this watch. It's a shame that anyone would try to pass off a franken as genuine. Like Ubi said it gives those of us who enjoy building franken watches a bad rap. This would have been a very expensive mistake, as I believe I read that the asking price was 13k. This sort of scam really irritates me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 I'm thinking that the bezel insert is all wrong. Much later, wrong font, no red triangle at 12. Is the dial from a later 5513? An original 6538 would have had gilt printing, esp. Rolex and Oyster Perpetual, and possibly white depth rating and a gilt Submariner, but dials did vary, but this doesn't look like any of the originals that I'm looking at. Case back- no date, like IV 58. But I'm not keen on the case either, although the engravings between the lugs look OK to me. I also don't know about the hands. Movement looks OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Interesting--I'm curious as to where you found that and exactly how much they were raping someone for it. Just as Heywood mentioned... $13k and sale as final; no recourse when (not if) Rolex Service informs the poor fellow who ends up buying this one that it's not genuine. The seller knows it's fake... Those terms/conditions and price tell the story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falco Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 I really like this watch, very very nice! Rarely see these types of non-cg frankens and it sort of sticks out from the mainstream rlx vintages crowd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighDef Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 I think that dial should have the metal casing arround the hour markers and the red triangle on the bezel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 THis franken is seriously sooo damn good, that not even RSC will realize it's a Franken... I have heard stories about RSC's taking MBW Frankens as gen that had a gen movement... That dial rocks!!! Well, anymore, it seems that Rolex doesn't care what dial you have on your watch- Could be genuine, fake, original, repainted, etc. Rolex has stated that they are not in the business of authenticating dials any longer; they've been burned too many times in the past by providing this service. In fact... Just recently I have seen a couple of instances where a watch with a very poorly refinished dial made it through an RSC for service. The dial was one of the HK dials (you know the ones- heavy serif font, and a misaligned ROLEX 'L' under the coronet). The RSC in this case didn't even offer a replacement dial to the 'aftermarket' piece that was installed. They just serviced it and returned the item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Well Ubi, what about telling us what you think about this watch? And of course, we'd all like to know what forum it came off of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 What is there to say about the watch? It's a franken... No doubt. And there are a number of flaws... The pics, to me, tell all. Dial is not correct. Hands are not correct. Bezel assembly is questionable. Bezel insert is wrong. Crown does not look genuine to me. Caseback engraving is performed incorrectly and is inaccurate. Case is suspect. Probably more flaws, but those are the ones I noticed immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewightstuff Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 (edited) get out of town!!!!!! are you serious that this happenend? i know that the rumour regarding their lack of enthusiasm for working on vintages was the risk of dial damage and the potential for action if this occurred, especially since they couldnt replace. just think how bad a red sub would be for them never mind a comex or gen mil sub or heaven forbid..a PN at first read i thought that to have this flip over and have them not even bother pulling up non gen dials is weird. im now wondering if its perhaps an issue regarding problems identifying, especially given the potential problems should they remove a dial as fake when its not or a more worryingly and probably more likely situation would be to leave them open to potential action by unscrupulous individuals who submit a faked dial watch then claim that they have lost their accurate and valuable gen part. you hear stories of people losing nice authentic parts at service quite frequently. wouldnt be too much of a stretch so see how some may try to exploit this. i wonder if this is infact a rearguard action we are seeing. very limited work on vintage models while rolex withdraw completely (while heritige centre is readying its office space in atlantis) or if thats reading too much and it was just some sloppy work at a single RSC Edited January 11, 2007 by thewightstuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewightstuff Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 What is there to say about the watch? It's a franken... No doubt. And there are a number of flaws... The pics, to me, tell all. Dial is not correct. Hands are not correct. Bezel assembly is questionable. Bezel insert is wrong. Crown does not look genuine to me. Caseback engraving is performed incorrectly and is inaccurate. Case is suspect. Probably more flaws, but those are the ones I noticed immediately. that makes it a bargain then at 13k, someones going to be very upset.....or perhaps very happy. maybe all that happens at this price level is a more upscale world of rep collecting though i suspect not lol its one downside of increasing value of vintage watches and rolex in particular. its worth peoples time to cobble together watches from various parts now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewightstuff Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 THis franken is seriously sooo damn good, that not even RSC will realize it's a Franken... I have heard stories about RSC's taking MBW Frankens as gen that had a gen movement... im not sure how much truth to put in this one. my experience is entirely with vintage pieces but ive yet to see an MBW case, or indeed cases identified as MBW, that had the correct drilling to take a gen movement properly as per the genuine example. while it may be model dependent, isnt the O-ring also on the wrong side on the MBW ie in the case rather than in the back. i cant see this passing muster much though perhaps it was with modern versions or a model ive not seen where these arent issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Yes indeed. A forum member on one of the gen boards submitted pics of his friend's 1665 DRSD, accepted by a Rolex AD and sent in to an RSC for service. The dial, a very poorly done repaint went either undetected, or someone just didn't care. I agree that part of the problem is probably attributed to (the lack of) experienced staff; the individuals at RSC who would know these watches inside and out are probably on the cusp of retiring from the business. These are the guys who have had extensive careers at Rolex Service with their knowledge gained from first hand experience through the years. As this turn over takes place, the new techs may not have the knowledge or expertise to properly identify such pieces. I do know that one of the other factors in the equation is the 'collector' aspect. By this, I mean the phenomenon that has become collectible vintage pieces. As collectors try to increase the values of their watches, many pieces were sent in to RSC's for verification and full service so that one could offer service papers and docs to further increase the value of a watch (by confirming authenticity and provenance). Unfortunately, such has been the case where one could verify in writing from an RSC that a watch with a very specific exotic dial (a PN for instance) is indeed genuine, and that individual owning the watch could then swap out the dial with an aftermarket, keeping the original dial for himself (worth beaucoup bucks) but with verification papers showing that the dial in the watch he is selling is genuine/original (when it's not). This has burned collectors and Rolex as well... And is why they stopped verifying. There were some other mishaps as well... Like RSC NY, DAL, BH authenticating 5517 dials when they're really not qualified to, etc. I suspect that these issues, as well as several other contributing factors are why RSC's no longer do any authetications on things like dials... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewightstuff Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 (edited) thanks for that. a nice read as always. its a long way from no longer authenticating dials to not pulling out fake dials though. my initial thought was indeed sloppy staff however sadly i feel it may be my latter feeling, thats its just a holding off action while rolex withdraw entirely from vintage servicing. even simple things like replacement bezel inserts for vintage models isnt the same any more and daily the list grows of people refused service work due to age. looks like the speel regarding rolex being a watch to pass from generation to generation wasnt meant literally maybe we can hostage their toblerone until they see sense. i have room to store the milk chocolate ones here with me Edited January 11, 2007 by thewightstuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 At the end of the day... It's anyone's outsider guess as to why Rolex does what they do. If anyone knows, it's the people behind the closed doors in Geneva... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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