Mercedes hands: am I crazy, or do few hands look gen?

[Revere]

We have a lot of amazing builds on this forum. Anyone who has been around knows that these builds involve gen dials, gen-like dials, customized cases, etc... but every now and then a gorgeous watch is ruined (for me) by some inaccurate hands!

Am I the only one that notices a lot of mercedes hands used on builds are often skinny, and too long? They look like someone left them out in the sun and they shrunk! This is especially noticeable on vintage builds. I lose track of which hands are guilty of this, but I believe yuki and maybe clarks do it. Definitely some raffles hands. I think stock MBW hands have this issue, and a lot of stock vintage reps as well.

The reason I'm posting this isn't to crap on people who don't spring for gen hands or source some CWP hands; I rarely see the hand inaccuracies mentioned, so I want to know if I'm wrong, or if the build emphasis is just usually placed on getting good cases/dials etc

Thanks for any input!

edit: there is also one more hunch I have. I think the dimensions of the hands might be correct, but they might be curved rather than flat... but this does not apply to some later vintage watches

Edited January 24, 2017 by Revere

[Sogeha]

Did you see the ultimate guide in the Rolex stickies? 

[Revere]

I definitely have read through the guide a few times. I'm not really asking who has the best hands or what, I'm more asking why so many builds that go above-and-beyond for a few parts end up getting hands that are just so-so.

[Sogeha]

Fair enough, just wondered. I don't know why people make the choices they do. I have used Clarks and CWP hands and I've also got some I unmodded reps with dubious hands, but for sure if I was using a genuine dial I would want genuine hands.

[Bart Cordell]

I have often asked myself the same question. Hands are just as important as others parts. That why I always use Clark's Tudor or JK hands in my builds.

[RickFlorida]

( I didn't know this before ).  That is ridiculous that something that should be easy to duplicate like hands is not rep'd well. 

 

Now, when you say Clark's is better than Yuki, is that only for gen. fitting hands or only for Yuki ETA hands vs. gen, etc.?

In other words, if you have an ETA movement, is there a choice?

[automatico]

"Am I the only one that notices a lot of mercedes hands used on builds are often skinny, and too long?"

Here is why my projects have non-gen-spec hands:

I saved a few sets of genuine hands over the years and they have been stored in the same place, forgotten for 20 years.  Then hand prices started shooting up on VRF and eBay so I took notice.  Meanwhile I got into Frankenstein 5513, 1680 etc, some with genuine movements.  So why not use the old take-off hands on them?  Because the hands are now worth 20% of what some of my F-steins are worth so I am using ST, Yuki etc hands.  I'll sell the genuine hands someday.

I ordered quite a few sets of hands when we had a parts account and iirc starting around 2005 or 2006 Luminova hands started showing up and the packages had 'LUMI' stamped on them.  I got two sets of 1019 hands and they are LUMI but at the same time a couple sets of 1675 hands were not marked so they may be tritium.  There is a set or two of submariner hands that are tritium for sure, one being a set that I put on a 14010 AK with a silver dial so I could actually see what time it was instead of just guessing.  I removed them before I sold it thank goodness.

LUMI or tritium?  I bought a little 'Smart Lab Smart Counter' Geiger counter that works with a smart phone but never got around to using it.  I ordered a GMC 300E mini Geiger Counter and will wait until it arrives to check the hands.

GMC 300  eBay item number:  162369833073

Smart Lab  eBay item number:  191473650729

 

"Now, when you say Clark's is better than Yuki, is that only for gen. fitting hands or only for Yuki ETA hands vs. gen, etc.?  In other words, if you have an ETA movement, is there a choice?"

Looks are one thing and fairly easy to make a choice but fitting the hands to the movement is another story.  I end up broaching at least half of the hands I get no matter who they come from.  As for Eta hands, you usually need to go with the best set you can find made for a tudor.  They still may need to be broached though.

[RickFlorida]

OK, thanks.    Am I over thinking it that if one were to build a 7928 Tudor with an ETA movement, since the original movement is a 390, then what is the best choice?   A later Tudor hand set would be meant for a non 7928 look, or did they not change?   

 

 

[JoeyB]

1 hour ago, RickFlorida said:

In other words, if you have an ETA movement, is there a choice?

Yes. As Cordell said, if you use the Rolex 'TUDOR' hands they will fit. The TUDOR model uses the ETA movement. 

[Blindpirat]

Good vintage gen hands cost as much as half of a gen movement now.
I build my explorer fully gen with tritium gen hands.. but price of the parts/build was around £3000 in total, even I used gen DJ case, not 1016 of course... this is quite expensive!
And not 1016 in the end.

I gave up on my 1680 build based on MBK case(too many things to redo in this one)+ phong caseback other parts are gen.

By selling all these parts I gathered through the years and adding something like £2000 I can get great gen 1680.
Vintage prices rised dramatically, from when I started this risky hobby.
I bought 78360 NOS band for £400 2 years ago, now it cost £1200-£1500, it's just impossible to build franken 100% rolex if you don't have access or you stashed parts over years.
I started 168000 project for a friend of mine years ago, basically I keep buying pieces for this one if I see something extremely cheap, last purchase was Gen service caseback for £80.. lol, this project is almost done, all gen apart from movement and midcase(now TC, I know dial not going to sit there properly..still looking for.. Phong or Gen) but anyway, I spend less then £1000 and need to get only Ykki3135, this is a keeper.
So yes, for me vintage rolex is more about true magic which Rolojack does on reps.
Or Saving for Gen.

Sorry if that was to long, hope you can feel my pain.
Thanks


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[freddy333]

This is probably obvious to many, but the reasons for the use of inaccurate hands (or insert part type here) in projects are as varied as the goals of the individuals who build them. Some are due to ignorance, some to laziness, some to inaccessibility (of gen or accurate repros) & some due to cost.

On the other hand, with a lot of luck & when time, motivation & finances take a back seat to experience/knowledge & a dogged pursuit perfection (or as much of it as is obtainable within reason..........well, almost reason), you can exceed the typical

[highoeyazmuhudee]

Clarks has the potential to be the best, but some of the inner lengths are off, only slightly. and his second hand is too long, but can be easily cut

Yukis never looked good to me.

Clarks - GEN 1520 - Yuki

[RickFlorida]

It looks like Clark's offers no color or lume options at all.   I only see pure white Tudor Sub hands available from his eBay listings.  It would be nice if there at least was a yellow lume available.   So I assume everyone is immediately stripping and reluming them?   

[automatico]

Blindpirat:  "I gave up on my 1680 build based on MBK case (too many things to redo in this one) + phong caseback other parts are gen."

I have done a few MBK projects and there is not an easy fix that I know of for laser etched MBK case backs other than replacing them because oem lettering is done by stamping, not engraving.  What you replace them with can make a big difference in $$ though.  Phong case backs are expensive so I use case backs from the old DW submariners from 5 or 6 years back because the stamped lettering is pretty good and you can put the MBK case back on the DW case and still have a case set.  The catch is the DW case backs came in two sizes, one oem spec in OD and thread size and one not.  As for MBK case band letters and numbers, I have a friend who can do very good work with an old Hermes engraver but he has stalled out for now.

Having owned various cartel, DW, MBK, Yuki, IG44, and Phong cases, I will say the MBK cases are extremely well made even if they are in need of some modification, but they may soon be a thing of the past when the remaining supply is out of circulation.  Hopefully an affordable replacement will show up.  Affordable  being the key word. 

 

[Dlf]

The Clarks hands are good value, just the Lume plot is so far away from the tube is the only major thing that bothers me.

[Blindpirat]

Blindpirat:  "I gave up on my 1680 build based on MBK case (too many things to redo in this one) + phong caseback other parts are gen."
I have done a few MBK projects and there is not an easy fix that I know of for laser etched MBK case backs other than replacing them because oem lettering is done by stamping, not engraving.  What you replace them with can make a big difference in $$ though.  Phong case backs are expensive so I use case backs from the old DW submariners from 5 or 6 years back because the stamped lettering is pretty good and you can put the MBK case back on the DW case and still have a case set.  The catch is the DW case backs came in two sizes, one oem spec in OD and thread size and one not.  As for MBK case band letters and numbers, I have a friend who can do very good work with an old Hermes engraver but he has stalled out for now.
Having owned various cartel, DW, MBK, Yuki, IG44, and Phong cases, I will say the MBK cases are extremely well made even if they are in need of some modification, but they may soon be a thing of the past when the remaining supply is out of circulation.  Hopefully an affordable replacement will show up.  Affordable  being the key word. 
 

Thanks Automatico!
I just gave up on this one. For now I have parts worth £4000 pounds according to today prices, and in the end after all efforts and years of collecting parts I would have franken 1680 for price of gen. That's so sad.. I think I'm done with this hobby. Building something superfranken apart from 1600-16000 date just is inefficient.
Sorry for off top, yes, hands gen only gen or Tudor hands for eta, but even Tudor good vintage ones are pricy now..




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[RickFlorida]

Yeah it's ridiculous how much more anything sub or sea dweller related something is so I know what you mean.   While looking for just a 93150 clasp, I see entire ladies date bracelets even with gold midlinks for the cost of a worn out 93150 clasp!   Stupidly annoying.

[Blindpirat]

Oh yes, man, that's sucks. I've done with that.
Will sell all my gen hands.. and parts..


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[automatico]

"I just gave up on this one. For now I have parts worth £4000 pounds according to today prices, and in the end after all efforts and years of collecting parts I would have franken 1680 for price of gen."

I know what you mean.  A '1655' project with Phong case/dial and rolex 1575 converted to 1575GMT sunk my boat.  I got a good deal on the slightly used case/dial and first class movement but the GMT parts chase lasted a couple years and cost way too much $$.  I quit at $3k USD.

 

"I see entire ladies date bracelets even with gold midlinks for the cost of a worn out 93150 clasp!   Stupidly annoying."

I hear you.        Lady rolex stuff goes cheap compared to gents stuff.

 

I have posted this a few times before but here is what my first MBK 5513 cost to put together a few years ago:

About $1300:
$300 for case
$102 for Yuki dial
$25 for TC tube and crown
$12.13 for ST hands
$650 for rolex 1520 mvt
$20 for mainspring etc
$0 for c/o
$85 for replica 358 hoods and put together a folded oyster from 'Mary' with '8 hole in a row' old style clasp cap
$12 for GS crystal
$68 for ST bezel kit (fit better than MBK bez with the GS crystal that was used)
$25 misc...spring bars, gaskets, case screws etc

Same watch with a Yuki case would be about $400 more than with an MBK case.

Had to use a 1575 date center wheel/cp and calendar spacer on the 1520 because the MBK 5513 case is made to 1680 spec, not 5513 spec. Extra cost is included with movement.
The center sweep sec pivot is the same on 1520 and 1575, the 1575 second hand has a longer tube.

Because 1520/60/70 movements and cases have gone up along with some other parts, the next one (5512) that was finished last year was probably $500 more.

An earlier '1680' project (before the MBK 5513) with DW case, 1575 and original dial cost about $300 more than the MBK 5513 even though the DW case was less at about $200 but the movement/original dial cost more than the 1520 with Yuki dial.  From my experience 5512/13 seem to cost the least and another advantage is they do not have a date to fool with along with date mag problems.  On the '1680' I left the DW bezel kit and crystal on the watch because the date magnifier was in the correct position and had 'Big Eye' magnification like genuine.

 

[TheSociety]

I've done quite a few builds by now and I always insist on getting a few key parts that are Gen

Movement
Crown
Crystal
Hands

I think the hands makes the watch. For some reason I can pick out gen hands more than anything else. They really ad to the feel of the watch. But that being said, prices are ridiculous now so it doesn't make as much sense anymore.

One of my favorite is set of hands are gen hands on my BC 6538 (darker tropical dial)




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