Phong Tudor 7016, worth it?

[Champagnesky]

Hi everyone! Im currently thinking about buying Phongs complete 7016, has anyone experience with this model? 

[hugop]

Hi everyone! Im currently thinking about buying Phongs complete 7016, has anyone experience with this model? 

I have both his 7016 and 7021 cases and they are perhaps the best aftermarket case for the vintage Tudor out there. Phong typically uses ETA 2789 movements which are the last iteration of the 2784 that Tudor originally used in the 9401 and 9411. The later 7016 used a 2783 which was the 2784 with no date. The place where I feel Phong could improve is in the area of his handset and dial. The hands are out of proportion when compared to gen. Hour and minute hands too fat and the second hand diamond falls in the wrong place. Tail of the second hand is also tapered out too wide in the back. Remember that Tudor offered three dial versions during the life of the 7016. Pre 1968 the rose dial like the 7928 was available and later the shild dial with roung indices and also the snowflake. This really opens up your available options when searching for a gen dial. (They are becoming rare) The dial is nice enough but this case calls for a gen dial or at least a MQ for sure. Add to that a set of onlinestorehk hands, gen 703, gen T19, gen insert, gen bracelet and you have a real winner! In the end you will still have half the cost of buying a gen in the watch.

So considering all the above would I buy the Phong? Yes! I have two of them and if there was a third vintage Tudor I had an urge to build I would buy another.

Here are a few pics of my 7021 build which is the same case but with 7021 engraving. The bezel is the Clark watch parts bezel. Dail, crown, 93150 bracelet and endlinks are gen. 2784 movement sourced as NOS and serviced by Misekped. Cost to reproduce $2500-3000. (Depends greatly on dial and phong case cost)

I guess I could have just said buy one you will love it!

(Bit I feel there are too many nondescript posts these days)

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[Champagnesky]

56 minutes ago, hugop said:

I have both his 7016 and 7021 cases and they are perhaps the best aftermarket case for the vintage Tudor out there. Phong typically uses ETA 2789 movements which are the last iteration of the 2784 that Tudor originally used in the 9401 and 9411. The later 7016 used a 2783 which was the 2784 with no date. The place where I feel Phong could improve is in the area of his handset and dial. The hands are out of proportion when compared to gen. Hour and minute hands too fat and the second hand diamond falls in the wrong place. Tail of the second hand is also tapered out too wide in the back. Remember that Tudor offered three dial versions during the life of the 7016. Pre 1968 the rose dial like the 7928 was available and later the shild dial with roung indices and also the snowflake. This really opens up your available options when searching for a gen dial. (They are becoming rare) The dial is nice enough but this case calls for a gen dial or at least a MQ for sure. Add to that a set of onlinestorehk hands, gen 703, gen T19, gen insert, gen bracelet and you have a real winner! In the end you will still have half the cost of buying a gen in the watch.

So considering all the above would I buy the Phong? Yes! I have two of them and if there was a third vintage Tudor I had an urge to build I would buy another.

Here are a few pics of my 7021 build which is the same case but with 7021 engraving. The bezel is the Clark watch parts bezel. Dail, crown, 93150 bracelet and endlinks are gen. 2784 movement sourced as NOS and serviced by Misekped. Cost to reproduce $2500-3000. (Depends greatly on dial and phong case cost)

I guess I could have just said buy one you will love it!

(Bit I feel there are too many nondescript posts these days)

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 

thanks for the info buddy! that watch looks stunning. I was kinda hoping that it was as good as it gets out of the box for 1100 dollars

[hugop]

Probably as good as it gets with an $1100 budget.

[RickFlorida]

But isn't a gen 93150 bracelet about 800 bucks alone?     So more like 2k for total cost of the nice above example.

[hugop]

Yes good observation, that is exactly the value I calculated in the number above. 93150, 9315, 7836 all will run $600-800 but the way they feel on the wrist is worth it.

I may have actually undervalued the watch head estimate as I only calculated 500 for the gen dial. They have been bringing crazy money lately!

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[automatico]

"I'm currently thinking about buying Phong's complete 7016..."

 

If 'complete' = a running watch, I wonder if the case is the same high grade case as their $1000+ empty 7016 cases?  My guess is No.  I do not know prices on the complete watches ($1100?) but do know approximately how much the empty cases go for. 

 

"Probably as good as it gets with an $1100 budget."

 

My one tudor submariner project stalled out about 10 or 12 years ago after I gathered up a used genuine tudor dial (I have forgotten the case reference number it is for) along with a replica tudor case back and an Abay case that will accept a genspec crystal etc but never finished it.  Up to that point I had about $250 in it but it still needed a movement, hands, crystal, bezel kit, case tube/crown/gaskets so $1100 for a finished watch is not too bad.

 

.

[automatico]

Just now checked the genuine tudor dial and it is a matte black 200 meter Eta date dial but it is only 25.5mm (!) in diameter so this is why I abandoned the project in 2004 ('quit' date written on the dial tin)...the Abay case is made for 26.5 mm dials.  I have no idea what reference number the genuine case would be for this dial.  The dial is fair with light marks on it so if I could ever find a case it would be Ok to use.

[TheSociety]

I will say that 99% of the time the headache and time you save over finding the parts, putting it together, not fitting and finding new parts etc - is totally worth the extra $ spent. In some cases I've seen people pay more than what they would a completed watch built by phong or anyone else.

Not all the time but for most people it makes more sense to buy a completed watch. For the more experienced members with tools (expensive) and knowledge then building their own is the obvious choice.

[RickFlorida]

1 hour ago, TheSociety said:

I will say that 99% of the time the headache and time you save over finding the parts, putting it together, not fitting and finding new parts etc - is totally worth the extra $ spent. In some cases I've seen people pay more than what they would a completed watch built by phong or anyone else.

Not all the time but for most people it makes more sense to buy a completed watch. For the more experienced members with tools (expensive) and knowledge then building their own is the obvious choice.
 

I think it depends on what you want.    I'm sure it matters what model you want but generally speaking.... I see nothing wrong with using Cartel cases and paying gifted and experienced people to hand shape them.    It's way more economical to me.    But someone has a lot of cash and want a case that takes gen. Specific movements then I can see why the Phongs and other crazy expensive cases are worth it too.

 

I'm still amazed that the outdated or patent ended old Rolex or Tudor cases are not officially made by third parties.   It sure would simplify things.  

[automatico]

"I'm still amazed that the outdated or patent ended old Rolex or Tudor cases are not officially made by third parties.   It sure would simplify things."

 

They are  being made...Yuki, Phong, MBK, cartel etc.  They are illegal only because they have trademarks.  Remove the trademarks and they are 100% legal.

Otoh...if you send a 100% genuine 5513/1680 etc to RSC and it needs a mid case, they will sell you one for $2500+/-.  What is the real world difference between this $2500 mid case and a Phong mid case for $900, both with genuine case backs?  Nothing. 

If you had the original serial number engraved on the Phong case, the watch would be worth quite a bit more 'out in the wilds' than the same watch with a genuine RSC '444' case...until you tell the truth about it.  A '444' case will probably never be worth as much as an original case...or a Phong etc case after the second or third owner.  It's a fact of life. 

No telling how many aftmkt cased watches are out there being 'innocently' sold as genuine every day.

 

Back 25 years ago when a 5513 or 1680 went for $1500 or so, I used to see 'dealers' buying them at watch shows by the dozen.  They would take them home and make 'premium' watches using the 'best of the best' cases/dials/movements/bracelets, have them professionally detailed, and sell them as 'mint' or 'near mint' for a LOT of $$ to 'serious' collectors.  Then they would put what was left together in ascending order and sell the best examples on mail order lists sent out to regular collectors.  The worst examples usually ended up for sale back at watch shows or parted out.

 

If you have a 'vintage' rolex and you did not buy it new...you might have a Frankenstein.

If Ya can't get married to yer sweetheart cause there is a law against  it...you might be a redneck.

[RickFlorida]

15 minutes ago, automatico said:

"I'm still amazed that the outdated or patent ended old Rolex or Tudor cases are not officially made by third parties.   It sure would simplify things."

 

They are  being made...Yuki, Phong, MBK, cartel etc.  They are illegal only because they have trademarks.  Remove the trademarks and they are 100% legal.

Otoh...if you send a 100% genuine 5513/1680 etc to RSC and it needs a mid case, they will sell you one for $2500+/-.  What is the real world difference between this $2500 mid case and a Phong mid case for $900, both with genuine case backs?  Nothing. 

If you had the original serial number engraved on the Phong case, the watch would be worth quite a bit more 'out in the wilds' than the same watch with a genuine RSC '444' case...until you tell the truth about it.  A '444' case will probably never be worth as much as an original case...or a Phong etc case after the second or third owner.  It's a fact of life. 

No telling how many aftmkt cased watches are out there being 'innocently' sold as genuine every day.

 

Back 25 years ago when a 5513 or 1680 went for $1500 or so, I used to see 'dealers' buying them at watch shows by the dozen.  They would take them home and make 'premium' watches using the 'best of the best' cases/dials/movements/bracelets, have them professionally detailed, and sell them as 'mint' or 'near mint' for a LOT of $$ to 'serious' collectors.  Then they would put what was left together in ascending order and sell the best examples on mail order lists sent out to regular collectors.  The worst examples usually ended up for sale back at watch shows or parted out.

 

If you have a 'vintage' rolex and you did not buy it new...you might have a Frankenstein.

If Ya can't get married to yer sweetheart cause there is a law against  it...you might be a redneck.

I think I need to explain more.    What I mean is why is there no sterile but highly accurate one being made kind of like the Star Time case that is for 3135 caliber for 180 bucks.    If it's sterile then there is no infringement.    

[TheSociety]

20 hours ago, RickFlorida said:

I think it depends on what you want.    I'm sure it matters what model you want but generally speaking.... I see nothing wrong with using Cartel cases and paying gifted and experienced people to hand shape them.    It's way more economical to me.    But someone has a lot of cash and want a case that takes gen. Specific movements then I can see why the Phongs and other crazy expensive cases are worth it too.

 

I'm still amazed that the outdated or patent ended old Rolex or Tudor cases are not officially made by third parties.   It sure would simplify things.  

I agree with you thats what I said it depends on your skillset, and available time. We know these builds can take 3 months or 3 years depending on the build and specs. I think that Phong offers a solid option for those without the patience or the skills needed. I personally take my time and collect the parts for my own builds. I don't end up saving much but I do get the right look that I want. 

[Sogeha]

3 hours ago, automatico said:

 

If you have a 'vintage' rolex and you did not buy it new...you might have a Frankenstein.

 

I have always rather suspected this which is why I am happier to play here with honest reps and frankens than spend rather more money on what might turn out to be a franken anyway.

[TheSociety]

"I'm still amazed that the outdated or patent ended old Rolex or Tudor cases are not officially made by third parties.   It sure would simplify things."
 
They are  being made...Yuki, Phong, MBK, cartel etc.  They are illegal only because they have trademarks.  Remove the trademarks and they are 100% legal.
Otoh...if you send a 100% genuine 5513/1680 etc to RSC and it needs a mid case, they will sell you one for $2500+/-.  What is the real world difference between this $2500 mid case and a Phong mid case for $900, both with genuine case backs?  Nothing. 
If you had the original serial number engraved on the Phong case, the watch would be worth quite a bit more 'out in the wilds' than the same watch with a genuine RSC '444' case...until you tell the truth about it.  A '444' case will probably never be worth as much as an original case...or a Phong etc case after the second or third owner.  It's a fact of life. 
No telling how many aftmkt cased watches are out there being 'innocently' sold as genuine every day.
 
Back 25 years ago when a 5513 or 1680 went for $1500 or so, I used to see 'dealers' buying them at watch shows by the dozen.  They would take them home and make 'premium' watches using the 'best of the best' cases/dials/movements/bracelets, have them professionally detailed, and sell them as 'mint' or 'near mint' for a LOT of $$ to 'serious' collectors.  Then they would put what was left together in ascending order and sell the best examples on mail order lists sent out to regular collectors.  The worst examples usually ended up for sale back at watch shows or parted out.
 
If you have a 'vintage' rolex and you did not buy it new...you might have a Frankenstein.
If Ya can't get married to yer sweetheart cause there is a law against  it...you might be a redneck.

Probably the most real thing I've read in a long time. The blurry lines between gen and rep is some stainless steel in the midcase

[Sogeha]

Amen brother. The only current Rolex I would even consider paying the market rate for is the Tempus Machina 216A.........which is a fake according to Rolex

 

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

[marrickvilleboy]

what have you done with the 593 endlinks? snipped off the ears?

[hugop]

what have you done with the 593 endlinks? snipped off the ears?

No someone before me did that. I bought them Cheap because of it. $50
Can't tell from the top and otherwise a good fit.

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[marrickvilleboy]

Ah ok! fair enough